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breathing

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
27 October 2007
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29 October 2007
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Paul Probert
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  1. Hi, all,
    Long time lurker here, first post. Background: I'm 55, running for
    many years. Race a couple 5k's a year, I do about 21 and change, hoping
    someday to get near 20. I run about 30 miles a week, along with some
    swimming and weights. I follow a pattern of: 1)long run, 2)speed
    workout, 3)a couple easy or fun runs, and 4)a fartlek. For my speed
    workout I've settled on 4 or 5 half miles with a quarter jog in between.
    I've never heard too much about breathing while running, but lately
    I've been experimenting with different styles. I breath one cycle every
    4 footfalls, in,in,out,out. Just the other day I discovered that if I
    make an effort on that last out to really push the last bit of air out
    of my lungs I can improve my speed and my comfort level quite a bit.
    What's the wisdom on this topic? Have other people worked on breathing
    and gotten a boost? Is this something all the good runners know about?

    Paul Probert
    Madison, WI

  2. Paul Probert said:

    Hi, all,
    Long time lurker here, first post. Background: I'm 55, running for
    many years. Race a couple 5k's a year, I do about 21 and change, hoping
    someday to get near 20. I run about 30 miles a week, along with some
    swimming and weights. I follow a pattern of: 1)long run, 2)speed
    workout, 3)a couple easy or fun runs, and 4)a fartlek. For my speed
    workout I've settled on 4 or 5 half miles with a quarter jog in between.
    I've never heard too much about breathing while running, but lately
    I've been experimenting with different styles. I breath one cycle every
    4 footfalls, in,in,out,out. Just the other day I discovered that if I
    make an effort on that last out to really push the last bit of air out
    of my lungs I can improve my speed and my comfort level quite a bit.
    What's the wisdom on this topic? Have other people worked on breathing
    and gotten a boost? Is this something all the good runners know about?

    Paul Probert
    Madison, WI

    Hi Paul,
    It sounds like you have a good solid base, and a good training
    program. The consensus on breathing runs two ways here. Some insist
    out/in is best, while others argue in/out is the only way to go.
    Personally I think it all depends which foot you start out on. I start
    with my right, while others swear starting with the left is faster.
    Which foot do you start out on? That'll help us give you a better
    response.
    Bill Rogers

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Paul Probert said:

    Hi, all,
    Long time lurker here, first post. Background: I'm 55, running for
    many years. Race a couple 5k's a year, I do about 21 and change, hoping
    someday to get near 20. I run about 30 miles a week, along with some
    swimming and weights. I follow a pattern of: 1)long run, 2)speed
    workout, 3)a couple easy or fun runs, and 4)a fartlek. For my speed
    workout I've settled on 4 or 5 half miles with a quarter jog in between.
    I've never heard too much about breathing while running, but lately
    I've been experimenting with different styles. I breath one cycle every
    4 footfalls, in,in,out,out. Just the other day I discovered that if I
    make an effort on that last out to really push the last bit of air out
    of my lungs I can improve my speed and my comfort level quite a bit.
    What's the wisdom on this topic? Have other people worked on breathing
    and gotten a boost? Is this something all the good runners know about?

    Paul Probert
    Madison, WI

    Paul,

    Some breathe for thought

    In health and on the run,

    Ozzie Gontang
    [email hidden]
    Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
    Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

    Path: electriciti.com!gontang
    From: [email hidden] (Ozzie Gontang)
    Newsgroups: rec.running
    Subject: Re: breathing method while running
    Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:19 -0800
    Organization: Int'l Assn of Marathoners

    In article said:

    I would appreciate any hints on the best way to breathe while jogging .

    This post scrolled off a few days ago:

    In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Stan Scott) wrote:\

    Quoted message said:

    Do long distance runners use any type of breating control? Like Long
    deep breaths? Or is it just best to breath naturally? >Stan

    Just try to breath naturally.
    Try breathing through your nose only. When you are used to it you
    breathe as if sitting on your couch. Rob

    Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper
    running is breathing and the rhythms of breath.

    Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be
    running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting the
    leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same cadence.
    This is where the concept of running is falling and catching oneself
    gracefully.

    To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining
    an
    oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the same
    cadence turnover.

    This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4 steps in and 4
    to 8
    steps out. The idea is that I am never panicked and that my breathing
    sequences are always enough to sustain the rate of turnover...which
    maintains at the same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute mile or a 5 minute
    or
    better mile.

    So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8..
    Then as I need more air I go to a
    4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles of air every 24 steps
    4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps
    4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps
    4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps
    4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles of air every 24 steps
    3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps
    3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles of air every 24 steps
    2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
    2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps
    1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps
    1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
    1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps

    The ideal one goes for is the same volume at all rhythms. Remember
    you're always breathing though the nose even when the mouth is
    open...unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal congestion.

    All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the mind stays calm
    and does not let any of the body unnecessarily tighten up from a
    perceived
    stress beyond one's capability.

    The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even (symmetric)
    breathing
    pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an even number,
    the runner is always running on the same foot at intake and also at
    exhale.

    With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps
    in &
    steps out total an odd number, the runner is running off the opposite
    foot
    at initial intake step of each breathing cycle
    in three steps/out four steps in three steps/our four steps
    in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-four
    LFT-2 - 3---Rt -two-three-four RT-two-three Lft-two-three-four
    LFT-two-three...
    L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 L 2
    3...

    In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called phase locking.
    It
    has been photographed at high speeds in horses, cheetahs, ostriches where
    at full speed there is one pattern into which they fall. In humans, if I
    remember from the research, there were found two phase lock patterns at
    top
    speed. I have the research article somewhere in one of my files. I'll
    see if I can dig it up.

    So you can see if you breath 2in/2out all the time and we speed up you
    can
    only continue to do what you do. You only get 6 cycles of air every 24
    steps. Whereas I can pick up the speed and get 8 cycles or even 9 cycles
    of air every 24 steps...and if I practice I can get 10 or 12 cycles every
    24 steps.

    You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part of
    the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state. It is
    through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play with the
    rhythms of their breath to keep on going. So for someone whose muscles
    are
    glycogen depleted I need to maintain the same running pace but increase
    the
    amount of oxygen to those muscles...and that is where the breathing
    patterns come in.

    Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run with a
    partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of 2in/2out or 3in/3out or
    4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing so that after 3 or 4 minutes as they
    breathe out I am breathing in and as they breathe in I am breathing out.
    The sound can be heard and the experience is that the other person's out
    breath is breathing me and on the next cycle mine his/hers.

    Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner, the miles
    covered in trance are an experience to remember.

    When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns both
    symmetric
    and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the breathing patterns of 3 or
    4
    or 5 of us mixed with the foot touch (rather than foot fall)can carry a
    group of runners easily for miles where the mind scans the body to relax
    any tension as it arises and lets it go...going back to the sound of the
    feet running together and the breathe of the pack. If you've seen Stomp
    you know the power of rhythm!

  4. Quoted message said:

    Hi Paul,
    It sounds like you have a good solid base, and a good training
    program. The consensus on breathing runs two ways here. Some insist
    out/in is best, while others argue in/out is the only way to go.
    Personally I think it all depends which foot you start out on. I start
    with my right, while others swear starting with the left is faster.
    Which foot do you start out on? That'll help us give you a better
    response.
    Bill Rogers

    Listen to Bill, he knows his stuff. That Ozzie is a troll.
    --
    http://tinyurl.com/2hmkh3
    ___________________________
    King Crimson

    "Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
    For the court of the crimson king."

  5. Oh, Wisconsin.

    That explains it.

  6. Hi Paul,
    It sounds like you have a good solid base, and a good training
    program. The consensus on breathing runs two ways here. Some insist
    out/in is best, while others argue in/out is the only way to go.
    Personally I think it all depends which foot you start out on. I start
    with my right, while others swear starting with the left is faster.
    Which foot do you start out on? That'll help us give you a better
    response.
    Bill Rogers

    --
    Ignorint [censored]-off Man

  7. Hi Paul,
    It sounds like you have a good solid base, and a good training
    program. The consensus on breathing runs two ways here. Some insist
    out/in is best, while others argue in/out is the only way to go.
    Personally I think it all depends which foot you start out on. I start
    with my right, while others swear starting with the left is faster.
    Which foot do you start out on? That'll help us give you a better
    response.
    Bill Rogers

    --
    Ignorint [censored]-off Man

  8. Ozzie Gontang said:
    Quoted message said:


    Paul,

    Some breathe for thought

    In health and on the run,

    Ozzie Gontang


    ....

    Quoted message said:

    feet running together and the breathe of the pack. If you've seen Stomp
    you know the power of rhythm!


    Ozzie,
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Much food for thought there.

    Paul

  9. Paul Probert said:

    Ozzie,
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Much food for thought there.

    Paul

    You dicklips Paul, Thought does not eat, and therefore there is no
    such thing as "food for thought".

  10. Quoted message said:

    What's the wisdom on this topic? Have other people worked on breathing
    and gotten a boost? Is this something all the good runners know about?

    I don't think it's something that "all good runners" attend to
    consciously. Certainly in some other forums where every last detail
    with the slimmest chance of bearing a vague and tangential relation to
    running performance is beaten to death, breathing isn't a hot or even
    tepid topic.

    Some people are into it, paying attention to and controlling the
    cadence of breathing vs. footsteps and other aspects. They must get
    something from it. In the few times I played around with it, I found
    it felt extremely awkward and unnatural and didn't seem to do anything
    for my running - my respiration seems to work just fine on autopilot
    in running as in any other activity, adjusting to get the air I need
    with no conscious intervention. Here's one "name" coach who advocates
    "just breathe", for what it's worth: http://coachbenson.com/s_23.asp

    The one thing I have done is recovery runs with mouth closed, only
    nose-breathing. Mostly for self-amusement but it did also keep my
    pace from creeping up. Like the poor man's (or Luddite's) heart rate
    monitor.

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