Beware of Falling Standards

Don Kirkman said:

I grieve today for the venerable Long Beach [CA] Marathon, which was run
yesterday. This morning's local paper has a half-page picture of a
medical team helping a runner across the finish line; the caption says
his legs failed him in the last 100 yards. Both the newspaper and the
official results, however, list him as the 43d finisher, 41st among men,
and tenth in his age group. What ever happened to finishing under one's
own power or taking a DNF?

I've run LB half a dozen or so times in the past, when it was under
different management, and it was always one of my favorites marathons,
both the course and the management. How the mighty have fallen!
--
Don Kirkman

You make a good point about the DNF. I am never close enough to the
front to worry about what place I am, but I could understand someone
finishing behind that runner being upset. Did he take any prizes by
finishing where he did in his age group? If so that makes it even
worse.

Matt
http://www.recreationease.com

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Matt -
http://www.recreationease.com wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

I grieve today for the venerable Long Beach [CA] Marathon, which was run
yesterday. This morning's local paper has a half-page picture of a
medical team helping a runner across the finish line; the caption says
his legs failed him in the last 100 yards. Both the newspaper and the
official results, however, list him as the 43d finisher, 41st among men,
and tenth in his age group. What ever happened to finishing under one's
own power or taking a DNF?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've run LB half a dozen or so times in the past, when it was under
different management, and it was always one of my favorites marathons,
both the course and the management. How the mighty have fallen!

Quoted message said:

You make a good point about the DNF. I am never close enough to the
front to worry about what place I am, but I could understand someone
finishing behind that runner being upset. Did he take any prizes by
finishing where he did in his age group? If so that makes it even
worse.

From what I could infer from the news item and the finishers' list he
didn't qualify for anything.

I was really surprised by this case because I remember the women's 1984
Olympic marathon where the Swiss runner Gabriele Andersen-Scheiss
struggled to cross the line under her own power. Only twenty-three
years later we seem to live in a different time.

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am that
the runner did it.
--
Don Kirkman

Don Kirkman said:

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am that
the runner did it.

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have the
newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have come
across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Dot

--
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I
have of it."
-Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am that
the runner did it.

Quoted message said:

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have the
newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have come
across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on the
site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
distance running.

Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access the
only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.
--
Don Kirkman

Beware of falling standards...like reading this post did to mine?

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am
that
the runner did it.

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it.

They new they had to disqualify him because he was helped across the
line. It didn't make the decision any easier.

Frank, whose knowledge of the effects of too little, too much
fluid/salt might want to read about this. And this runner was not a
rookie.

-Doug

"Don Kirkman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am
that
the runner did it.

Quoted message said:

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have
the
newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have
come
across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on
the
site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
distance running.

Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access the
only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.

from http://www.trailrunnermag.com/article.php?id=106&cat=10

"Safety First
At this year's Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run in Auburn,
California, Brian Morrison led the race as he entered the Auburn High
School stadium. However, in the race's final 250 meters, Morrison
collapsed, and his coach and pacer Scott Jurek and others physically
aided delirious and staggering Morrison to the finish line. They were
more concerned for the runner's health than the race's rules of
engagement. Still, the Western States board of trustees was forced to
make a judgment call.

In a statement, the board determined "that runner 320 [Morrison] did not
complete the course in accordance with rules 4 and 5 and pacer rule 11,
and therefore did not finish the race," which ultimately led to
Morrison's disqualification. However, the board also recognized that the
runner's crew actions "likely prevented a life-threatening seizure." The
board acknowledged that Morrison and his crew weren't trying to cheat
their way through the race's closing stage; it was obvious to everyone
present that Morrison needed to be carried beyond the finish to
immediate medical aid.

Morrison and Jurek agree with the board's decision, as emotional as it
was to accept. "There's no bitterness; it was a very unfortunate
situation, but not one that's under debate," says Jurek. "A decision had
to be made, but I see it as more of a DNF [than a "

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71cddfb5ec3

-Doug

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:48:08 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Safety First

Always wear a condom.

-Doug

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Doug Freese wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Don Kirkman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have
the
newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have
come
across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on
the
site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
distance running.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access the
only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.

Quoted message said:

from http://www.trailrunnermag.com/article.php?id=106&cat=10

Quoted message said:

"Safety First
At this year's Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run in Auburn,
California, Brian Morrison led the race as he entered the Auburn High
School stadium. However, in the race's final 250 meters, Morrison
collapsed, and his coach and pacer Scott Jurek and others physically
aided delirious and staggering Morrison to the finish line. They were
more concerned for the runner's health than the race's rules of
engagement. Still, the Western States board of trustees was forced to
make a judgment call.

Thanks for this, Doug. That adds a bit of nuanced detail to the story.

Quoted message said:

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71cddfb5ec3

This is the page I found on my first search; I especially appreciated
Morrison's attitude per his interview.
--
Don Kirkman

Don Kirkman said:

Thanks for this, Doug. That adds a bit of nuanced detail to the story.

Quoted message said:

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71cddfb5ec3

This is the page I found on my first search; I especially appreciated
Morrison's attitude per his interview.

Does this earn me a blowjob before the next race?

-Doug

Don Kirkman said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Doug Freese wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Don Kirkman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
>had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have
>the
>newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have
>come
>across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on
the
site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
distance running.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access the
only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.

Quoted message said:

from http://www.trailrunnermag.com/article.php?id=106&cat=10

Quoted message said:

"Safety First
At this year's Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run in Auburn,
California, Brian Morrison led the race as he entered the Auburn High
School stadium. However, in the race's final 250 meters, Morrison
collapsed, and his coach and pacer Scott Jurek and others physically
aided delirious and staggering Morrison to the finish line. They were
more concerned for the runner's health than the race's rules of
engagement. Still, the Western States board of trustees was forced to
make a judgment call.

Thanks for this, Doug. That adds a bit of nuanced detail to the story.

Quoted message said:

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71cddfb5ec3

This is the page I found on my first search; I especially appreciated
Morrison's attitude per his interview.

Sorry, I should have given you more hints.😉 There were so many
discussions and newspaper articles at the time, I thought they would pop
up fairly readily, and I didn't want to select one or two, since each
provided different pieces of the puzzle. '"Brian Morrison" Western 2006'
in google does bring up quite a few, but some stuff I remember might
have been hardcopy magazine articles.

While it was a no-brainer as to DQ (he did not withdraw from race, and
he received aid crossing the finish line), there was some controversy
about why he wasn't taken directly to medical. Note the actions in
paragraph while on the track about half way down in this post:
http://www.ncctrackclub.com/articles/WesternStates.html

This is the type of thing that Doug and I were referring to in the
Chicago marathon thread where the person doesn't have sense enough to
back off, and in this case, his pacers (supposedly there for safety)
apparently also missed the signals. Granted, hyponatremia is difficult
to diagnose for sure, even by trained medical personnel. That's why some
of the larger marathons have portable sodium plasma checkers in their
med tents.

Dot

--
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I
have of it."
-Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States

In article <[email hidden]>, Alric Knebel
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

Thanks for this, Doug. That adds a bit of nuanced detail to the story.

Quoted message said:

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71
cddfb5ec3

This is the page I found on my first search; I especially appreciated
Morrison's attitude per his interview.

Does this earn me a blowjob before the next race?

-Doug

And I thought they were known as GUs in the USA.
--
Ken

In article <[email hidden]>,
Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> writes

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Doug Freese wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

"Don Kirkman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
><[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

>>Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although
>>organizers
>>had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have
>>
>>newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have
>>
>>across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Quoted message said:

>Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on
>
>site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
>distance running.

Quoted message said:

>Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access
>
>only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.

Quoted message said:

from http://www.trailrunnermag.com/article.php?id=106&cat=10

Quoted message said:

"Safety First
At this year's Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run in Auburn,
California, Brian Morrison led the race as he entered the Auburn High
School stadium. However, in the race's final 250 meters, Morrison
collapsed, and his coach and pacer Scott Jurek and others physically
aided delirious and staggering Morrison to the finish line. They were
more concerned for the runner's health than the race's rules of
engagement. Still, the Western States board of trustees was forced to
make a judgment call.

Thanks for this, Doug. That adds a bit of nuanced detail to the
story.

Quoted message said:

Another..
http://www.floridasports.com/article/?Guid=7ed49eb3-8979-414a-865e-e71
cddfb5ec3

This is the page I found on my first search; I especially
appreciated
Morrison's attitude per his interview.

Sorry, I should have given you more hints.😉 There were so many
discussions and newspaper articles at the time, I thought they would pop
up fairly readily, and I didn't want to select one or two, since each
provided different pieces of the puzzle. '"Brian Morrison" Western
2006' in google does bring up quite a few, but some stuff I remember
might have been hardcopy magazine articles.

While it was a no-brainer as to DQ (he did not withdraw from race, and
he received aid crossing the finish line), there was some controversy
about why he wasn't taken directly to medical. Note the actions in
paragraph while on the track about half way down in this post:
http://www.ncctrackclub.com/articles/WesternStates.html

This is the type of thing that Doug and I were referring to in the
Chicago marathon thread where the person doesn't have sense enough to
back off, and in this case, his pacers (supposedly there for safety)
apparently also missed the signals. Granted, hyponatremia is difficult
to diagnose for sure, even by trained medical personnel. That's why
some of the larger marathons have portable sodium plasma checkers in
their med tents.

Dot

Do you not have an independent referee in American races? What would
happen if someone lodged a complaint about an organiser's decision?
--
Ken

Beware of falling standards...like reading this post did to mine?
--
Ignorint [censored]-off Man

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you not have an independent referee in American races?

Never heard of one. Do you have some overshaddowing body in the UK?

Quoted message said:

What would happen if someone lodged a complaint about an organiser's
decision?

Logged a complaint to whom? You can appeal to the RD but if it was him
that made the decision you didn't like, I guess you're peeing in the
front of a fan.

-Doug

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Doug Freese wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Don Kirkman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dot wrote in article
><[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
>>had to think about it. (there's some old threads that probably have
>>the
>>newspaper and other links - a LOT of weird things that may not have
>>come
>>across in papers, interviews, online posts)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Thanks for that, Dot. Interesting interview with the fallen hero on
>the
>site I went to; obviously not everyone has lost their integrity yet in
>distance running.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Apparently I have to sign up for a newsgroup membership to access the
>only newspaper source I found, a tri training group on Google.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I should have given you more hints.😉 There were so many
discussions and newspaper articles at the time, I thought they would pop
up fairly readily, and I didn't want to select one or two, since each
provided different pieces of the puzzle. '"Brian Morrison" Western 2006'
in google does bring up quite a few, but some stuff I remember might
have been hardcopy magazine articles.

Quoted message said:

While it was a no-brainer as to DQ (he did not withdraw from race, and
he received aid crossing the finish line), there was some controversy
about why he wasn't taken directly to medical. Note the actions in
paragraph while on the track about half way down in this post:
http://www.ncctrackclub.com/articles/WesternStates.html

Thanks for this article, Dot. It's well written and goes into the facts
and decisions in good detail. You really didn't need to do it just for
me, but other readers may also find it interesting and instructive.

Quoted message said:

This is the type of thing that Doug and I were referring to in the
Chicago marathon thread where the person doesn't have sense enough to
back off, and in this case, his pacers (supposedly there for safety)
apparently also missed the signals. Granted, hyponatremia is difficult
to diagnose for sure, even by trained medical personnel. That's why some
of the larger marathons have portable sodium plasma checkers in their
med tents.

It's so easy to get caught up in the race itself and miss the
significance of what's happening to others around us even if we see some
of the outward signs. I've never been in the vicinity of a near miss,
but I've seen a number of marathoners who obviously were in no condition
to finish their race--but like most others, I kept on running, depending
on the medical crew and others to look out for those in trouble. Not
always the right decision.
--
Don Kirkman

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:42:12 -0400, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman said:

And I'm just as bothered, or perhaps more so, that race management
allowed this and that medical staff participated in it than I am
that
the runner did it.

Check out finish for 2006 WS100. The guy was DQ'd although organizers
had to think about it.

They new they had to disqualify him because he was helped across the
line. It didn't make the decision any easier.

Frank, whose knowledge of the effects of too little, too much
fluid/salt might want to read about this. And this runner was not a
rookie.

-Doug

Doug, I'm going to assume you mean me and also that this is really you
and not the many posts assigned to you from a truly disturbed
individual.

It is not a matter of whether I know what is possible. I do. Our
discussion was about the right to make a choice given the
probabilities. That's all.

If the individual in question looked wobbly or dazed 200 yards out,
should the RD or one of the staff members have stepped in and told him
he couldn't finish?

Frank

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you not have an independent referee in American races?

Never heard of one. Do you have some overshaddowing body in the UK?

There is a governing body which grants permits to race organisers
(simplifying some irrelevant detail). There is no law that says an RD
must have a permit but it confers public liability and other insurance
that the RD would otherwise have to arrange himself. So in practice an
RD would almost always seek a permit. This involves compliance with
rules, actually quaintly old fashioned and not a model for the rest of
the world to follow. In fact I am too ashamed to give the web address
where they can be found.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What would happen if someone lodged a complaint about an organiser's
decision?

Logged a complaint to whom? You can appeal to the RD but if it was him
that made the decision you didn't like, I guess you're peeing in the
front of a fan.

In the one case that I was slightly involved in, a member of the race
organisation made a mistake, and the organiser, in attempting to correct
the mistake, did something that someone later protested, was showing
bias in favour of a particular runner. So it was inappropriate for the
organiser to investigate and was dealt with by a referee.

In the case of the LB Marathon, if this is a road race, and someone was
purported to break a world record, presumably it would need to be
accredited by some national organisation and possibly checked by the
relevant international organisation (forgotten what it's called).

Quoted message said:

-Doug

--
Ken

Don Kirkman said:

Thanks for this article, Dot. It's well written and goes into the facts
and decisions in good detail. You really didn't need to do it just for
me, but other readers may also find it interesting and instructive.

No problem. The thing was kinda a can of worms, so once a little was
said, it seemed like more needed to be said.

Dot

--
"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I
have of it."
-Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States