Which is the best internally geared hub?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
"Bicycle" for daily commuting!

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.
The following hubs participate in the comparison.

* Shimano
o Nexus INTER-3
o Nexus INTER-7
o Nexus INTER-8
o Alfine (8 Speed)

* Sram
o T3
o P5
o P5 Cargo
o S7
o i-Motion 3
o i-Motion 9

* Sturmey Archer
o 3 Speed
o 5 Speed
o 8 Speed

* Rohloff
o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

* Fichtel & Sachs
o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
review.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Gruß Marco

First, a few caveats:
-your required gearing depends a lot on how strong you are and how hilly
"hilly" is and how far and fast you're going. There are people who tour
on fixed-gear bicycles, after all. That said, I think anything less than
a 7-speed drivetrain will probably be annoying for touring in hilly
regions, and if you're serious about this project, the ludicrously
expensive Rohloff is clearly the best choice. If you can afford it.

-the new i-Motion 9 and Alfine hubs are virtually unavailable in North
America, so first-hand impressions are hard to come by.

Sheldon knows this stuff the best of anyone, and swears by the "Red
Band" (nice version) of the Nexus 8. It's expensive but good value, and
works really well, He says it's a clear upgrade from the pretty-good
Nexus 7.

Assuming they didn't add any design flaws, the Alfine is probably a bit
better still, but we're not yet clear on what has actually changed. It
appears to be a matter of an extra bearing on the Alfine axle.

So if you can't afford the Rohloff, the Nexus 8 is probably the best
choice. A friend has a bike based around that hub, and loves it. Sheldon
sells the gloriously desireable San Jos8 which is a turn-key version of
what you want to build, but you would have to add racks, fenders, and oh
yeah, fly to Massachusetts, because they don't sell it by mail-order.
However, it's quite possible your local shop could order you a Bianchi
San Jose and the parts to convert it to Jos8 spec.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8/index.html

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a
derailleure bicycle. With massive problems during winter times
because of frozen bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big
issue when they frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen
and from time to time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered
chain needed quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands
to clean the chain every half year. So I started examine how to
improve the system "Bicycle" for daily commuting!

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you
a coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake".
My 3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake
functions always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in
winter and two gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed
the internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.

Is that "4 to 5 kg" or "45 kg" with an extraneous dash inserted? If the
former, you've got lots of options and a couple of very good ones: the
SRAM T3 or P5, which can be had with or without coaster brake. If the
latter, you've really only got one options: the Rohloff 14 speed (which
will cost you the equivalent of a subprime house payment in its 5th
year).

Quoted message said:

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Not too bad. It reads a bit oddly in English. There are efficiency
issues that I did not see mentioned, one of which is using larger than
typical chainring and sprocket to improve efficiency.

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
"Bicycle" for daily commuting!

Quoted message said:

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

Quoted message said:

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Quoted message said:

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.
The following hubs participate in the comparison.

Quoted message said:

* Shimano
o Nexus INTER-3
o Nexus INTER-7
o Nexus INTER-8
o Alfine (8 Speed)

Quoted message said:

* Sram
o T3
o P5
o P5 Cargo
o S7
o i-Motion 3
o i-Motion 9

Quoted message said:

* Sturmey Archer
o 3 Speed
o 5 Speed
o 8 Speed

Quoted message said:

* Rohloff
o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

Quoted message said:

* Fichtel & Sachs
o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
review.

Quoted message said:

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Quoted message said:

Gruß Marco

First, a few caveats:
-your required gearing depends a lot on how strong you are and how hilly
"hilly" is and how far and fast you're going. There are people who tour
on fixed-gear bicycles, after all. That said, I think anything less than
a 7-speed drivetrain will probably be annoying for touring in hilly
regions, and if you're serious about this project, the ludicrously
expensive Rohloff is clearly the best choice. If you can afford it.

-the new i-Motion 9 and Alfine hubs are virtually unavailable in North
America, so first-hand impressions are hard to come by.

Sheldon knows this stuff the best of anyone, and swears by the "Red
Band" (nice version) of the Nexus 8. It's expensive but good value, and
works really well, He says it's a clear upgrade from the pretty-good
Nexus 7.

Assuming they didn't add any design flaws, the Alfine is probably a bit
better still, but we're not yet clear on what has actually changed. It
appears to be a matter of an extra bearing on the Alfine axle.

So if you can't afford the Rohloff, the Nexus 8 is probably the best
choice. A friend has a bike based around that hub, and loves it. Sheldon
sells the gloriously desireable San Jos8 which is a turn-key version of
what you want to build, but you would have to add racks, fenders, and oh
yeah, fly to Massachusetts, because they don't sell it by mail-order.
However, it's quite possible your local shop could order you a Bianchi
San Jose and the parts to convert it to Jos8 spec.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8/index.html

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden]://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Ryan,

I agree when I compare the hubs the result is Speedhub. That´s
something I could have answered before I compared the hubs in the
review. The Rohloff is the MAXIMUM possible! But are there other
advantages & disadvantages! E.g. price, complexity of built up,
maintenance effort, weight, ....
My aim is to find and select the IDEAL hub for a certain pourpose.

I´ll cycle with my Touring Bicycle in a hilly region. The hills have a
altitude beween 200 and 400 meter and the inclination of the roads is
around 5% max. 10%.
First: I try to find a hub with small gear steps. Second: Gear steps
of the same size over the whole gear ratio range.

The result was Shimano Nexus INTER-7 and SRAM i-MOTION 9 fits best.

What´s the next step?

In a third step I will place the overall gear ratio on the right
starting point! This will be the smallest necessary gear ratio I need
(10% inclination). Therefore I will choose the appropiate chain wheel
and sprocket.

Last Step: Check the largest gear! Here I will see if I need the large
overall gear ratio of a i-MOTION 9 or a Rohloff Speedhub or maybe the
Nexus INTER-7 is already fine.

Do you agree on the procedure?

Better ideas?

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a
derailleure bicycle. With massive problems during winter times
because of frozen bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big
issue when they frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen
and from time to time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered
chain needed quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands
to clean the chain every half year. So I started examine how to
improve the system "Bicycle" for daily commuting!

Quoted message said:

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you
a coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake".
My 3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake
functions always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in
winter and two gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

Quoted message said:

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Quoted message said:

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed
the internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.

Is that "4 to 5 kg" or "45 kg" with an extraneous dash inserted? If the
former, you've got lots of options and a couple of very good ones: the
SRAM T3 or P5, which can be had with or without coaster brake. If the
latter, you've really only got one options: the Rohloff 14 speed (which
will cost you the equivalent of a subprime house payment in its 5th
year).

Quoted message said:

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Not too bad. It reads a bit oddly in English. There are efficiency
issues that I did not see mentioned, one of which is using larger than
typical chainring and sprocket to improve efficiency.

It´s 4 to 5 kg. This means light luggage!

What do you think about the following procedure to find the IDEAL hub?

Ryan,

I agree when I compare the hubs the result is Speedhub. That´s
something I could have answered before I compared the hubs in the
review. The Rohloff is the MAXIMUM possible! But are there other
advantages & disadvantages! E.g. price, complexity of built up,
maintenance effort, weight, ....
My aim is to find and select the IDEAL hub for a certain pourpose.

I´ll cycle with my Touring Bicycle in a hilly region. The hills have a
altitude beween 200 and 400 meter and the inclination of the roads is
around 5% max. 10%.
First: I try to find a hub with small gear steps. Second: Gear steps
of the same size over the whole gear ratio range.

The result was Shimano Nexus INTER-7 and SRAM i-MOTION 9 fits best.

What´s the next step?

In a third step I will place the overall gear ratio on the right
starting point! This will be the smallest necessary gear ratio I need
(10% inclination). Therefore I will choose the appropiate chain wheel
and sprocket.

Last Step: Check the largest gear! Here I will see if I need the large
overall gear ratio of a i-MOTION 9 or a Rohloff Speedhub or maybe the
Nexus INTER-7 is already fine.

Maybe I make a mistake here! So comments are welcome.

Gruß Marco

Sure efficiency is a important criteria. I have no neutral information
yet about this issues (measurements). Sure every hub producer tells us
the efficency is on the deraileure drivetrain level!

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
"Bicycle" for daily commuting!

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.
The following hubs participate in the comparison.

* Shimano
o Nexus INTER-3
o Nexus INTER-7
o Nexus INTER-8
o Alfine (8 Speed)

* Sram
o T3
o P5
o P5 Cargo
o S7
o i-Motion 3
o i-Motion 9

* Sturmey Archer
o 3 Speed
o 5 Speed
o 8 Speed

* Rohloff
o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

* Fichtel & Sachs
o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
review.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Gruß Marco

Why the Inter-7 over the Red-Band Inter-8? Looking at current hub
prices, the premium for the 8 is only about 10%.

I have a Red-Band Inter-8 on one of my bikes and it's great. I have a
gear range of 35-90 inches (42T front, 19T rear, 26x1.75" tire). Not a
big enough high to hit 40mph on a downhill, but big enough for
practical riding. Most of my cruising on the flats is between 6th and
7th gear. Starting from a dead stop is usually in 4th or 5th. 1st-3rd
are for hill climbing. A great bike for getting groceries, with my big
Wald basket on the front.

Hank Wirtz said:

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
"Bicycle" for daily commuting!

Quoted message said:

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

Quoted message said:

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Quoted message said:

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.
The following hubs participate in the comparison.

Quoted message said:

* Shimano
o Nexus INTER-3
o Nexus INTER-7
o Nexus INTER-8
o Alfine (8 Speed)

Quoted message said:

* Sram
o T3
o P5
o P5 Cargo
o S7
o i-Motion 3
o i-Motion 9

Quoted message said:

* Sturmey Archer
o 3 Speed
o 5 Speed
o 8 Speed

Quoted message said:

* Rohloff
o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

Quoted message said:

* Fichtel & Sachs
o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
review.

Quoted message said:

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Quoted message said:

Gruß Marco

Why the Inter-7 over the Red-Band Inter-8? Looking at current hub
prices, the premium for the 8 is only about 10%.

I have a Red-Band Inter-8 on one of my bikes and it's great. I have a
gear range of 35-90 inches (42T front, 19T rear, 26x1.75" tire). Not a
big enough high to hit 40mph on a downhill, but big enough for
practical riding. Most of my cruising on the flats is between 6th and
7th gear. Starting from a dead stop is usually in 4th or 5th. 1st-3rd
are for hill climbing. A great bike for getting groceries, with my big
Wald basket on the front.

In the review I had a look on the gear steps. I think it´s important
to have always the perfect gear for the actual cycling situation.
http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/
What I found out is the following:"Shimano tells us they improved the
Nexus INTER-7 hub to the Nexus INTER-8 / ALFINE. Sorry! That´s not the
case according gear steps. Have look on the chart. The chart jumps
down from 22,2% to 13,8% and once again up and down. This is no well
balanced hub. If you want to buy a internal gear hub from Shimano take
the well balanced Nexus INTER-7."

In my opinion not the amount of gears is important. The steps between
the gears and their size over the whole gear ratio.
Do you agree?

Gruß Marco

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz said:

On Oct 14, 12:55 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
"Bicycle" for daily commuting!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
environmental influences.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
intern hubs and made a review.
The following hubs participate in the comparison.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* Shimano
o Nexus INTER-3
o Nexus INTER-7
o Nexus INTER-8
o Alfine (8 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* Sram
o T3
o P5
o P5 Cargo
o S7
o i-Motion 3
o i-Motion 9

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* Sturmey Archer
o 3 Speed
o 5 Speed
o 8 Speed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* Rohloff
o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* Fichtel & Sachs
o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
review.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gruß Marco

Quoted message said:

Why the Inter-7 over the Red-Band Inter-8? Looking at current hub
prices, the premium for the 8 is only about 10%.

Quoted message said:

I have a Red-Band Inter-8 on one of my bikes and it's great. I have a
gear range of 35-90 inches (42T front, 19T rear, 26x1.75" tire). Not a
big enough high to hit 40mph on a downhill, but big enough for
practical riding. Most of my cruising on the flats is between 6th and
7th gear. Starting from a dead stop is usually in 4th or 5th. 1st-3rd
are for hill climbing. A great bike for getting groceries, with my big
Wald basket on the front.

In the review I had a look on the gear steps. I think it´s important
to have always the perfect gear for the actual cycling situation.http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/
What I found out is the following:"Shimano tells us they improved the
Nexus INTER-7 hub to the Nexus INTER-8 / ALFINE. Sorry! That´s not the
case according gear steps. Have look on the chart. The chart jumps
down from 22,2% to 13,8% and once again up and down. This is no well
balanced hub. If you want to buy a internal gear hub from Shimano take
the well balanced Nexus INTER-7."

In my opinion not the amount of gears is important. The steps between
the gears and their size over the whole gear ratio.
Do you agree?

Not really, no. In real-world riding, the difference between the
shifts make a whole lot of sense. 1st-2nd is a big jump. 1st is your
bail-out gear, and you're going to stay out of that gear unless you
need a _really_ low one. Smaller shifts from 2nd-3rd-4th make sense
for maintaining cadence up most hills. Bigger shifts from 4th-5th-6th
are good for taking off from a stop on the flats and getting up to
speed quickly, and small shifts between 6th-7th-8th help maintain
cadence while cruising on the flats. To me, that shifting pattern
makes much more sense than constant 15% or 17% shifts on every gear.

Plus, the bearings on the Inter-8 Red Band are of much higher quality.

Hank Wirtz said:

Quoted message said:

On 16 Okt., 18:31, Hank Wirtz <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Oct 14, 12:55 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I started riding an internal gear hub 3 years ago. The reason was my
> daily commuting distance of 14km per day. Before I rode a derailleure
> bicycle. With massive problems during winter times because of frozen
> bowden cables. For shifting pourpose it´s no big issue when they
> frozen. But also the brake bowden cables wer frozen and from time to
> time they torn apart. That´s no fun! The not covered chain needed
> quite often oil... and it took me time and dirty hands to clean the
> chain every half year. So I started examine how to improve the system
> "Bicycle" for daily commuting!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The result up to now is a Fichtel & Sachs (F&S) Duomatic internally
> geared hub (2 Speed). There is no bowden cable anymore you just have
> to kick back the pedals. And the second advantage is the Duomatic
> coaster brake. There are a lot marketing guys out there who tell you a
> coster brake is old fashioned and no worth the to name it "brake". My
> 3 years experiance with the hub is great. The coaster brake functions
> always also during rain or snow and will not freeze in winter and two
> gears are enough when you cycle in a flat region.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I also added a Hebie Chainglider which protects the chain from the
> environmental influences.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Now I want to built up a touring bicycle (Pourpose: Touring in hilly
> regions with 4-5kg luggage!) with more than two gears and observed the
> internal hub market. I tried to find the right specifications for
> intern hubs and made a review.
> The following hubs participate in the comparison.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> * Shimano
> o Nexus INTER-3
> o Nexus INTER-7
> o Nexus INTER-8
> o Alfine (8 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> * Sram
> o T3
> o P5
> o P5 Cargo
> o S7
> o i-Motion 3
> o i-Motion 9

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> * Sturmey Archer
> o 3 Speed
> o 5 Speed
> o 8 Speed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> * Rohloff
> o Speedhub 500/14 (14 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> * Fichtel & Sachs
> o Torpedo Duomatic (2 Speed)
> o Torpedo Automatic (2 Speed)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Up to now I´ll go for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 or the SRAM i-Motion 9
> and would like to read your comments about my decision and the
> review.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Gruß Marco

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why the Inter-7 over the Red-Band Inter-8? Looking at current hub
prices, the premium for the 8 is only about 10%.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a Red-Band Inter-8 on one of my bikes and it's great. I have a
gear range of 35-90 inches (42T front, 19T rear, 26x1.75" tire). Not a
big enough high to hit 40mph on a downhill, but big enough for
practical riding. Most of my cruising on the flats is between 6th and
7th gear. Starting from a dead stop is usually in 4th or 5th. 1st-3rd
are for hill climbing. A great bike for getting groceries, with my big
Wald basket on the front.

Quoted message said:

In the review I had a look on the gear steps. I think it´s important
to have always the perfect gear for the actual cycling situation.http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/
What I found out is the following:"Shimano tells us they improved the
Nexus INTER-7 hub to the Nexus INTER-8 / ALFINE. Sorry! That´s not the
case according gear steps. Have look on the chart. The chart jumps
down from 22,2% to 13,8% and once again up and down. This is no well
balanced hub. If you want to buy a internal gear hub from Shimano take
the well balanced Nexus INTER-7."

Quoted message said:

In my opinion not the amount of gears is important. The steps between
the gears and their size over the whole gear ratio.
Do you agree?

Not really, no. In real-world riding, the difference between the
shifts make a whole lot of sense. 1st-2nd is a big jump. 1st is your
bail-out gear, and you're going to stay out of that gear unless you
need a _really_ low one. Smaller shifts from 2nd-3rd-4th make sense
for maintaining cadence up most hills. Bigger shifts from 4th-5th-6th
are good for taking off from a stop on the flats and getting up to
speed quickly, and small shifts between 6th-7th-8th help maintain
cadence while cruising on the flats. To me, that shifting pattern
makes much more sense than constant 15% or 17% shifts on every gear.

Plus, the bearings on the Inter-8 Red Band are of much higher quality.

Interesting aspects!
When this is the environment and way you use the INTER-8 I agree on
your argumentation. From my standpoint it could easy happen with a
INTER-8 (max. gear steps of 22%) that you have the feeling the next
upper gear is to "big" and the actual gear is to "low" according gear
ratio. With the result to change your cadence to adapt on the
situation.
The needle bearings are a real plus for the SG-8R25 (PREMIUM)! Here is
a picture of them:
http://www.hubstripping.com/shimano-inter8/shimano-nexus-inter-8-changeability.jpg
I just posted a special page on hubstripping only for the Shimano
Nexus INTER-8:
http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/nexus-inter-8-shimano/

It´s still a great hub! But in my point of few not the IDEAL!

Gruß Marco

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

It´s still a great hub! But in my point of few not the IDEAL!

What you appear to be looking for is a continuously variable hub gear.
No hub gear is ever going to achieve your ideal.

One of the reasons that derailleurs triumphed in the marketplace over
hub gears is that wider range and finer gradations within that range are
so much easier to accomplish. Hub gears are fun- I quite like my SRAM
T3- and do have something to offer in terms of utility riding in
frequently wet weather, but in terms of gearing derailleurs will always
best hub gears.

Andreas Oehlert, IIRC, was shown in Velovision a couple of years on his
bike with a hub gear, chain case, hub generator, fenders and rain cape-
an almost ideal setup for frequent wet weather commuting. I've had
thoughts about emulating that setup several times.

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

It´s still a great hub! But in my point of few not the IDEAL!

What you appear to be looking for is a continuously variable hub gear.
No hub gear is ever going to achieve your ideal.

Tim, a CVT is now available. Ellsworth makes a bike with it. Here's a
video of the mechanism:

From what I have heard, it has issues with weight and efficiency.
Planetary gearing still seems to be better in those respects.

The OP may want to consider the Rohloff 14-speed if he wants more range,
but it is heavy. On the other hand, purchasing it will lighten his
wallet considerably.

Ted

--
Ted Bennett

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Ted Bennett said:

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

It´s still a great hub! But in my point of few not the IDEAL!

What you appear to be looking for is a continuously variable hub
gear. No hub gear is ever going to achieve your ideal.

Tim, a CVT is now available. Ellsworth makes a bike with it. Here's
a video of the mechanism:

From what I have heard, it has issues with weight and efficiency.
Planetary gearing still seems to be better in those respects.

That's obvious just from looking at it. The drag issues look huge, and
it also looks like it would be very sensitive to temperature changes.

Quoted message said:

The OP may want to consider the Rohloff 14-speed if he wants more
range, but it is heavy. On the other hand, purchasing it will
lighten his wallet considerably.

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Ted Bennett said:

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It´s still a greathub! But in my point of few not the IDEAL!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What you appear to be looking for is a continuously variablehub
gear. Nohubgear is ever going to achieve your ideal.

Quoted message said:

Tim, a CVT is now available. Ellsworth makes a bike with it. Here's
a video of the mechanism:

Quoted message said:

From what I have heard, it has issues with weight and efficiency.
Planetary gearing still seems to be better in those respects.

That's obvious just from looking at it. The drag issues look huge, and
it also looks like it would be very sensitive to temperature changes.

Quoted message said:

The OP may want to consider the Rohloff 14-speed if he wants more
range, but it is heavy. On the other hand, purchasing it will
lighten his wallet considerably.

I agree weight and friction issues are the disadvantages of the CVT.
When the principle will be developed further it´s alternative for the
planetary hubs.

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss the
importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And the
answer is:

Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropiate overall gear
ratio! YES!

I copied the arguments from Bernd Rohloff in a comment at the end of
the internal gear hub review.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/#comment-59

I will check the prices for the Shimano Nexus INTER-7 and the SRAM i-
MOTION9 because I´ll build up the rear wheel by myself.

Thanks for your feedback and have fun cycling!

Gruß Marco

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss
the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And
the answer is:

Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropiate overall gear
ratio! YES!

"YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's opinion
that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an independent
verification of anything.

And he's also not necessarily right, either. The human body has a much
broader range of efficient functioning than is the case for engines.
Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of conceptual problems
and is a practice that should be stopped.

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss
the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And
the answer is:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropriate overall
gear ratio! YES!

Quoted message said:

"`YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's
opinion that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an
independent verification of anything.

Quoted message said:

And he's also not necessarily right, either. The human body has a
much broader range of efficient functioning than is the case for
engines. Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of
conceptual problems and is a practice that should be stopped.

Try telling that to the Spin Coaches. I agree that the human can work
at various speeds. Some folks can climb stairs, two at a time, others
have a hard enough time taking them singly... achieving the same rate
of climb.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss
the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And
the answer is:
Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropriate overall
gear ratio! YES!

"`YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's
opinion that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an
independent verification of anything.
And he's also not necessarily right, either. The human body has a
much broader range of efficient functioning than is the case for
engines. Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of
conceptual problems and is a practice that should be stopped.

Try telling that to the Spin Coaches. I agree that the human can work
at various speeds. Some folks can climb stairs, two at a time, others
have a hard enough time taking them singly... achieving the same rate
of climb.

Jobst Brandt

Sure but when they spin or climb up stairs (two at a time) is this
efficient? Also I think efficiency is not everything when we come back
to real life. The other factor is e.g. money and the fact that my
bicycles stand outside... in the rain. There is always the danger of
burglary. So the IDEAL compromise according money and gear ratio
steps.... is for my pourpose the both hubs I mentioned.

Gruß Marco

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss
the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And
the answer is:

Quoted message said:

Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropiate overall gear
ratio! YES!

"YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's opinion
that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an independent
verification of anything.

And he's also not necessarily right, either. The human body has a much
broader range of efficient functioning than is the case for engines.
Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of conceptual problems
and is a practice that should be stopped.

I was enthusiastic after reading this comments. Sure Bernd wants to
push his hub! But the procedure to choose a hub and what are the
important key values of a hub fitted in my hub-world!

I think these things are not related to the Rohloff hub!

Gruß Marco (a human being!)

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He discuss
the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human leg). And
the answer is:

Small (15%) and constant gear steps over the appropiate overall gear
ratio! YES!

"YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's opinion
that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an independent
verification of anything.

And he's also not necessarily right, either. The human body has a much
broader range of efficient functioning than is the case for engines.
Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of conceptual problems
and is a practice that should be stopped.

My bike has 18 gears which are good for speeds in the range 0 to 30mph.
My car has only five for 0 to 110mph.

About 4 of the bike's gears overlap, so there are really 14 gears. This
still means about one gear for every 2mph increment.

Surely the car engine is much the more flexible?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

> I just found an interesting article from BERND Rohloff. He
> discuss the importance of the "IDEAL" gear for the engine (human
> leg). And the answer is: Small (15%) and constant gear steps
> over the appropriate overall gear ratio! YES!

"`YES?" Why "YES!" with such emphasis? Since this is Rohloff's
opinion that happens to support the hub he designed, it is not an
independent verification of anything. And he's also not
necessarily right, either. The human body has a much broader
range of efficient functioning than is the case for engines.
Mistaking humans for "engines" causes all kinds of conceptual
problems and is a practice that should be stopped.

Try telling that to the Spin Coaches. I agree that the human can
work at various speeds. Some folks can climb stairs, two at a
time, others have a hard enough time taking them singly...
achieving the same rate of climb.

Sure but when they spin or climb up stairs (two at a time) is this
efficient? Also I think efficiency is not everything when we come
back to real life. The other factor is e.g. money and the fact that
my bicycles stand outside... in the rain. There is always the
danger of burglary. So the IDEAL compromise according money and gear
ratio steps.... is for my pourpose the both hubs I mentioned.

The "best hub" for your purposes is a decision only you can make and
that wasn't what I was addressing in my post.

Ryan Cousineau said:

So if you can't afford the Rohloff, the Nexus 8 is probably the best
choice. A friend has a bike based around that hub, and loves it. Sheldon
sells the gloriously desireable San Jos8 which is a turn-key version of
what you want to build, but you would have to add racks, fenders, and oh
yeah, fly to Massachusetts, because they don't sell it by mail-order.
However, it's quite possible your local shop could order you a Bianchi
San Jose and the parts to convert it to Jos8 spec.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/bianchi-sanjos8/index.html

I wish that Harris would order up a batch of Hebie chain guards from
Germany for the San Jos8.