General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

GPS - height difference

Started by Mike Mason · · Last activity · 12 posts · 483 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
12 October 2007
Last activity
23 October 2007
Original author
Mike Mason
Posts
12
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
483
Views / 30 days
0
Topics

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–12 of 12
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Went for a walk in the Lakes today. Miserable weather, cloud all the way
    round.

    However as the walk was the first one with my new GPS it was perhaps the
    best conditions.

    GPS is Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx

    Started the walk near Dockray at NY37990 21898. There is a spot height very
    close to this of 412 metres.

    The GPS was left on the car roof for 10 minutes whilst I put on boots etc.
    The height it registered was 338 metres. This was taken from the track data
    as displayed in Oziexplorer.

    The return grid ref was NY37993 21896 but the height was 416 metres.

    Looking at the track data the GPS started to give what appear to be
    realistic readings somewhere between High Brow and Randerside and somewhere
    between 37 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes into the walk.

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can anyone
    offer an explanation for this quite large difference in heights please.

    Mike Mason

  2. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Mike Mason <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    Went for a walk in the Lakes today. Miserable weather, cloud all the way
    round.

    However as the walk was the first one with my new GPS it was perhaps the
    best conditions.

    GPS is Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx

    Started the walk near Dockray at NY37990 21898. There is a spot height very
    close to this of 412 metres.

    The GPS was left on the car roof for 10 minutes whilst I put on boots etc.
    The height it registered was 338 metres. This was taken from the track data
    as displayed in Oziexplorer.

    The return grid ref was NY37993 21896 but the height was 416 metres.

    Looking at the track data the GPS started to give what appear to be
    realistic readings somewhere between High Brow and Randerside and somewhere
    between 37 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes into the walk.

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can anyone
    offer an explanation for this quite large difference in heights please.

    Yep, you failed to initialise the height before you started. With the
    barometric altimeter in the S models you need to do that, either from a
    known height, or by saying 'use the GPS height value'. Heights on
    trackpoints are all from the barometer - heights on waypoints are from
    the barometer UNLESS you 'average' the position, in which case GPS
    height is used.

    You can see the gps height at any time from the satellite screen (hit
    menu). The barometer assumes a height change every time the pressure
    reading changes, unless you have it in 'constant height' mode - if a
    depression comes through, you are suddenly several hundred feet lower.
    The thing will auto calibrate from the GPS height (assuming you have
    turned that option on) but the time constant is quite long - which is
    why it has sorted itself out by the end of the walk.

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

  3. Mike Mason said:

    GPS is Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx

    Started the walk near Dockray at NY37990 21898. There is a spot
    height very close to this of 412 metres.

    The GPS was left on the car roof for 10 minutes whilst I put on boots
    etc. The height it registered was 338 metres.

    The return grid ref was NY37993 21896 but the height was 416 metres.

    Looking at the track data the GPS started to give what appear to be
    realistic readings somewhere between High Brow and Randerside and
    somewhere between 37 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes into the walk.

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can
    anyone offer an explanation for this quite large difference in
    heights please.

    You didn't calibrate the altimeter at the start of the walk.

    It was obviously set to auto-calibrate, which is why it gave sensible
    readings later on, but auto-calibrate takes a while to settle down (at least
    half an hour), which is why you should always calibrate it manually at the
    start of each walk. It took longer in your case because you didn't calibrate
    it.

    The barometer mode should should also be set to variable elevation for use
    when walking, which it probably was (I think that's the default).

    The procedure is this:

    1. Turn the GPS on and wait until you get a good signal (an EPE of at least
    10m). It's important to do this first since the GPS elevation jumps around a
    lot when you first switch it on.

    2. Calibrate the altimeter. Use a known height if possible, but if it's hard
    to determine accurately from the map, use the current GPS altitude instead
    (but be sure you've got a good lock first).

    3. It's a good idea to turn track recording on at this point, and to reset
    your odometer etc. I always switch it on and off at the start and end of
    each walk to avoid recording the car journey. It's best to do this *after*
    getting a good lock and calibrating the altimeter, to avoid recording any
    [censored] at the start of the track log.

    That's it! I usually set mine at home in the car, before I start the drive,
    since I know the exact elevation there. Also, it gives it plenty of time to
    auto-calibrate by the time I get to the start of the walk. I can also use it
    for navigation in the car too!

    The more accurate the calibration the quicker auto-cal works. The reason it
    works slowly is because it avoids big jumps in the GPS elevation which can
    happen when the reception is temporarily bad. For this reason it's a good
    idea not to start a walk where reception is bad, such as under trees or
    surrounded by buildings. This is another reason to get a good lock and
    calibrate before arriving at your start point.

    Here's a tip if camping under trees or where reception is bad. Before you
    turn your GPS off at the camp site, make a note of the elevation (saving a
    waypoint is an easy way of doing this). Next morning, if you have difficulty
    getting a lock, at least you'll be able to use the elevation from the
    previous day to calibrate the altimeter (which in turn helps the GPS to get
    a lock I think). Even if you can't get a lock, at least the altimeter will
    give you some info.

    It's surprising how much the elevation can change during the night due to
    pressure changes. But that's actually a good thing since you can check the
    barometer screen to get an idea about possible weather changes. Strictly
    speaking, if you want to use the barometer mode properly you should turn
    auto-cal off and change the mode to fixed elevation, but I tend not to do
    this because I usually forget to change them back the next day. Seems to
    work fine without doing that though.

    Of course, pressure trend recording should be set to save always, so that it
    records data when it's turned off. I just leave it on this setting.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/

  4. In article <[email hidden]>, GSV Three Minds in a Can
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    if a depression comes through, you are suddenly several hundred feet
    lower.

    It is the other way round. Depression = lower atmospheric pressure =
    higher altitude if assuming the pressure has not changed.

    --

    Dominic Sexton

  5. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
    person Dominic Sexton <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, GSV Three Minds in a Can
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    if a depression comes through, you are suddenly several hundred feet
    lower.

    It is the other way round. Depression = lower atmospheric pressure =
    higher altitude if assuming the pressure has not changed.

    True, me bad .. finger trouble ..

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

  6. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Mason said:

    GPS is Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx

    Started the walk near Dockray at NY37990 21898. There is a spot
    height very close to this of 412 metres.

    The GPS was left on the car roof for 10 minutes whilst I put on boots
    etc. The height it registered was 338 metres.

    The return grid ref was NY37993 21896 but the height was 416 metres.

    Looking at the track data the GPS started to give what appear to be
    realistic readings somewhere between High Brow and Randerside and
    somewhere between 37 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes into the walk.

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can
    anyone offer an explanation for this quite large difference in
    heights please.

    You didn't calibrate the altimeter at the start of the walk.

    It was obviously set to auto-calibrate, which is why it gave sensible
    readings later on, but auto-calibrate takes a while to settle down (at
    least half an hour), which is why you should always calibrate it manually
    at the start of each walk. It took longer in your case because you didn't
    calibrate it.

    The barometer mode should should also be set to variable elevation for use
    when walking, which it probably was (I think that's the default).

    The procedure is this:

    1. Turn the GPS on and wait until you get a good signal (an EPE of at
    least 10m). It's important to do this first since the GPS elevation jumps
    around a lot when you first switch it on.

    2. Calibrate the altimeter. Use a known height if possible, but if it's
    hard to determine accurately from the map, use the current GPS altitude
    instead (but be sure you've got a good lock first).

    3. It's a good idea to turn track recording on at this point, and to reset
    your odometer etc. I always switch it on and off at the start and end of
    each walk to avoid recording the car journey. It's best to do this *after*
    getting a good lock and calibrating the altimeter, to avoid recording any
    [censored] at the start of the track log.

    That's it! I usually set mine at home in the car, before I start the
    drive, since I know the exact elevation there. Also, it gives it plenty of
    time to auto-calibrate by the time I get to the start of the walk. I can
    also use it for navigation in the car too!

    The more accurate the calibration the quicker auto-cal works. The reason
    it works slowly is because it avoids big jumps in the GPS elevation which
    can happen when the reception is temporarily bad. For this reason it's a
    good idea not to start a walk where reception is bad, such as under trees
    or surrounded by buildings. This is another reason to get a good lock and
    calibrate before arriving at your start point.

    Here's a tip if camping under trees or where reception is bad. Before you
    turn your GPS off at the camp site, make a note of the elevation (saving a
    waypoint is an easy way of doing this). Next morning, if you have
    difficulty getting a lock, at least you'll be able to use the elevation
    from the previous day to calibrate the altimeter (which in turn helps the
    GPS to get a lock I think). Even if you can't get a lock, at least the
    altimeter will give you some info.

    It's surprising how much the elevation can change during the night due to
    pressure changes. But that's actually a good thing since you can check the
    barometer screen to get an idea about possible weather changes. Strictly
    speaking, if you want to use the barometer mode properly you should turn
    auto-cal off and change the mode to fixed elevation, but I tend not to do
    this because I usually forget to change them back the next day. Seems to
    work fine without doing that though.

    Of course, pressure trend recording should be set to save always, so that
    it records data when it's turned off. I just leave it on this setting.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/


    Thanks Paul.

    Mike

  7. "GSV Three Minds in a Can" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Mike Mason <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    Went for a walk in the Lakes today. Miserable weather, cloud all the way
    round.

    However as the walk was the first one with my new GPS it was perhaps the
    best conditions.

    GPS is Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx

    Started the walk near Dockray at NY37990 21898. There is a spot height
    very
    close to this of 412 metres.

    The GPS was left on the car roof for 10 minutes whilst I put on boots etc.
    The height it registered was 338 metres. This was taken from the track
    data
    as displayed in Oziexplorer.

    The return grid ref was NY37993 21896 but the height was 416 metres.

    Looking at the track data the GPS started to give what appear to be
    realistic readings somewhere between High Brow and Randerside and
    somewhere
    between 37 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes into the walk.

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can anyone
    offer an explanation for this quite large difference in heights please.

    Yep, you failed to initialise the height before you started. With the
    barometric altimeter in the S models you need to do that, either from a
    known height, or by saying 'use the GPS height value'. Heights on
    trackpoints are all from the barometer - heights on waypoints are from the
    barometer UNLESS you 'average' the position, in which case GPS height is
    used.

    You can see the gps height at any time from the satellite screen (hit
    menu). The barometer assumes a height change every time the pressure
    reading changes, unless you have it in 'constant height' mode - if a
    depression comes through, you are suddenly several hundred feet lower. The
    thing will auto calibrate from the GPS height (assuming you have turned
    that option on) but the time constant is quite long - which is why it has
    sorted itself out by the end of the walk.

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

    Thanks

    Mike

  8. Mike Mason said:

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can anyone
    offer an explanation for this quite large difference in heights please.

    Mike Mason


    Mike,

    Seems like you need to calibrate it to start off with then !

    I took my 60 CS around with me on my Lakland expedition recently, I
    generally found the altitude reading at the summits was impressivly
    accurate. I never bothered calibrating the altimeter though, it's set
    to auto I think. Several times I was able to get the WAAS/ Egnos
    signal ( you get a 'D' appear on the signal strength bars !) this
    enabled sub 5m accuracy according the the EPE . (Have you got the
    latest firmware and enabled WAAS ?) The accuracy of the GPS altitide
    is very dependant on the geometry of the satelites than Lat/ long so
    this could have caused a difference also. It says so in the manual
    which I read again the other day ;-) I'm rather looking forward to my
    next trip now BTW !

    Simon

  9. Mike Mason said:

    There was no break in the track and no spurious track points. Can anyone
    offer an explanation for this quite large difference in heights please.

    Mike Mason


    Mike,

    Seems like you need to calibrate it to start off with then !

    I took my 60 CS around with me on my Lakland expedition recently, I
    generally found the altitude reading at the summits was impressivly
    accurate. I never bothered calibrating the altimeter though, it's set
    to auto I think. Several times I was able to get the WAAS/ Egnos
    signal ( you get a 'D' appear on the signal strength bars !) this
    enabled sub 5m accuracy according the the EPE . (Have you got the
    latest firmware and enabled WAAS ?) The accuracy of the GPS altitide
    is very dependant on the geometry of the satelites than Lat/ long so
    this could have caused a difference also. It says so in the manual
    which I read again the other day ;-) I'm rather looking forward to my
    next trip now BTW !

    Simon

  10. GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

    The thing will auto calibrate from the GPS height (assuming you have
    turned that option on) but the time constant is quite long - which is
    why it has sorted itself out by the end of the walk.

    If you can get a really good lock before you calibrate from the GPS height,
    it can be pretty accurate. I've had an EPE of just 1m a few times, and I've
    often had just 2m in good conditions.

    It's a pity you can't optionally switch to using GPS altitude instead, I'd
    like to see how much it fluctuates in those conditions.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/

  11. In message <[email hidden]>

    Paul Saunders said:
    GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

    The thing will auto calibrate from the GPS height (assuming you have
    turned that option on) but the time constant is quite long - which is
    why it has sorted itself out by the end of the walk.

    If you can get a really good lock before you calibrate from the GPS
    height, it can be pretty accurate. I've had an EPE of just 1m a few
    times, and I've often had just 2m in good conditions.

    It's a pity you can't optionally switch to using GPS altitude instead,
    I'd like to see how much it fluctuates in those conditions.

    Paul

    I've just purchased a Vista HCx and so far have been very impressed with
    its ability to lock onto and hold satellite. I've used it a couple of
    times alongside my Geko 301 and certainly the Vista HCx is much better.
    I have even found that it isn't so fussy about how and where it is
    carried, e.g. in a pocket of a jacket or in the rucksack, it still seems
    to maintain accurate tracking. I'm still getting used to ability to also
    use mapping for navigation. Also I still find the simple method of
    saving partial tracks on the Geko much easier than using the joystick,
    map and menu method on the Vista.

    Using the Vista and UK OS topo maps I've realised that another way to
    calibrate the altimeter is to look at the contour lines and spot heights
    on the map displayed near the cursor.

    I'm trying to work out whether it sometimes displays GPS altitude rather
    than barometric (I'm familiar with the calibration set-up menu)? For
    example when you are asking it to average a waypoint over multiple
    readings is it showing GPS or barometric?

    Mike
    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

  12. Mike Clark said:

    I'm trying to work out whether it sometimes displays GPS altitude
    rather than barometric (I'm familiar with the calibration set-up
    menu)? For example when you are asking it to average a waypoint over
    multiple readings is it showing GPS or barometric?

    With the 60CS, and I imagine yours too, normal waypoints record the
    altimeter elevation, averaged waypoints record the GPS elevation, so it's
    showing the latter while it's averaging.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.