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footpath riding

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Australia and New Zealand
Published
6 October 2007
Last activity
13 October 2007
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Zebee Johnstone
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  1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2185062,00.html

    "A cyclist who caused the death of a man he crashed into while riding
    on the pavement at 25mph was facing jail yesterday after admitting
    "wanton or furious" cycling."
    [...]
    "An inquest earlier this year heard how in March last year Messen had
    borrowed the bicycle from a nephew and had not ridden it before. He
    was cycling to another village, Bugle, and moved on to the pavement
    because the traffic was heavy."

    Apparently heading down hill very fast. On the footpath.

    I wonder what the traffic was like, whether it was something an
    experienced cyclist (It isn't clear how experienced this guy was) would
    cope with or not.

    I could imagine someone not confident in traffic deciding to do Melville
    St on the footpath. That's got lots of cars at times, who are quite happy
    to go around me after I move out into the lane because I don't want to
    be squeezed between the parked cars and the moving ones. (Once I get to
    50kmh halfway down the hill I'm doing traffic speed and no one passes me.)

    I would worry about someone getting up to that sort of speed on the
    footpath though. If they are scared of traffic but not scared of
    doing those speeds on a footpath (can you really guarantee a decent
    surface?) then there's something definitely wrong with 'em.

    Trouble is, people who would consider riding on the footpath at speed
    are the kind who don't think about consequences.

    Zebee

  2. Zebee Johnstone said:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2185062,00.html

    "A cyclist who caused the death of a man he crashed into while
    riding on the pavement at 25mph was facing jail yesterday
    after admitting "wanton or furious" cycling."
    [...]
    "An inquest earlier this year heard how in March last year
    Messen had borrowed the bicycle from a nephew and had not
    ridden it before. He was cycling to another village, Bugle,
    and moved on to the pavement because the traffic was heavy."

    Apparently heading down hill very fast. On the footpath.

    I wonder what the traffic was like, whether it was something
    an experienced cyclist (It isn't clear how experienced this
    guy was) would cope with or not.

    I could imagine someone not confident in traffic deciding to
    do Melville St on the footpath. That's got lots of cars at
    times, who are quite happy to go around me after I move out
    into the lane because I don't want to be squeezed between the
    parked cars and the moving ones. (Once I get to 50kmh halfway
    down the hill I'm doing traffic speed and no one passes me.)

    I would worry about someone getting up to that sort of speed
    on the footpath though. If they are scared of traffic but not
    scared of doing those speeds on a footpath (can you really
    guarantee a decent surface?) then there's something definitely
    wrong with 'em.

    Trouble is, people who would consider riding on the footpath
    at speed are the kind who don't think about consequences.

    Riding on footpaths is legal and normal here in the ACT of
    course, and 40 km/h (25 mph) is not at all uncommon or
    dangerous in the right circumstances.

    To those who say that riding on footpaths is more hazardous (to
    anybody) than riding on roads, I'd ask for the statistics to
    back that up.

    John

  3. In aus.bicycle on Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:30:57 +1000

    John Henderson said:


    Riding on footpaths is legal and normal here in the ACT of
    course, and 40 km/h (25 mph) is not at all uncommon or
    dangerous in the right circumstances.

    Footpath? Or gazetted shared path?

    Zebee

  4. "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2185062,00.html

    "A cyclist who caused the death of a man he crashed into while riding
    on the pavement at 25mph was facing jail yesterday after admitting
    "wanton or furious" cycling."
    [...]
    "An inquest earlier this year heard how in March last year Messen had
    borrowed the bicycle from a nephew and had not ridden it before. He
    was cycling to another village, Bugle, and moved on to the pavement
    because the traffic was heavy."

    Apparently heading down hill very fast. On the footpath.

    I wonder what the traffic was like, whether it was something an
    experienced cyclist (It isn't clear how experienced this guy was) would
    cope with or not.

    I could imagine someone not confident in traffic deciding to do Melville
    St on the footpath. That's got lots of cars at times, who are quite happy
    to go around me after I move out into the lane because I don't want to
    be squeezed between the parked cars and the moving ones. (Once I get to
    50kmh halfway down the hill I'm doing traffic speed and no one passes me.)

    I would worry about someone getting up to that sort of speed on the
    footpath though. If they are scared of traffic but not scared of
    doing those speeds on a footpath (can you really guarantee a decent
    surface?) then there's something definitely wrong with 'em.

    Trouble is, people who would consider riding on the footpath at speed
    are the kind who don't think about consequences.

    Zebee

    Or they are the type of people who consider a bike is no more than a toy -
    not a "real vehicle"

    If that orientation toward bikes could be changed we'd be heading in the
    right direction...

    me

  5. Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:30:57 +1000

    John Henderson said:


    Riding on footpaths is legal and normal here in the ACT of
    course, and 40 km/h (25 mph) is not at all uncommon or
    dangerous in the right circumstances.

    Footpath? Or gazetted shared path?

    All footpaths are shared paths in the ACT - there's no
    distinction made as far as riding is concerned. There are
    classic concrete footpaths where 40 km/h or more is not
    unreasonable when there's no conflict with pedestrians.

    There are very few bicycle collisions with pedestrians, and
    injuries are very rare indeed.

    It's more the dogs walked illegally off-leash that creates real
    potential for accidents.

    John

  6. In aus.bicycle on Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:30:57 +1000

    John Henderson said:


    To those who say that riding on footpaths is more hazardous (to
    anybody) than riding on roads, I'd ask for the statistics to
    back that up.

    Here you go, a couple from the first 10 hits on a google search of
    accident statistics bicycle riding on footpath

    ===============
    www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2000/qld/qisuissue57.pdf

    There is some indication that the provision of bike paths and lanes
    separating bike traffic from other users may provide a degree of pro-
    tection from cycle/motor vehicle crashes but only if it is in the same
    direction as other traffic 8,9 . Riding on the footpath, on the other
    hand, has been found to be more dangerous than riding on the road 9,10,11
    .. This suggests that allowing cyclists to ride on footpaths may not have
    been based on the best available evidence

    ===============
    www.can.org.nz/research/Research-0201-Sidewalks.pdf

    In a recent New Zealand study (Munster et al 2001), it was estimated
    from hospital data that four times as many cyclists are injured from
    cycle-only crashes on the road or footpath than those involved in a motor
    vehicle collision (note that this doesn't include off-road mountain-biking
    track accidents either). When looking specifically at children, Safekids
    (2001) concurred,
    [..]
    Closer to home and concentrating on road-specific crashes, LTSA injury
    crash data for 1996-2000 shows that 58% of urban cycle crashes are
    intersection crashes (including driveways). Looking specifically at
    on-road crash movements that could be avoided on a footpath (e.g. hit
    car door, rear-ended), less than a quarter of all on-road crashes appear
    to be likely candidates, based on crash movement codes.

    In moving cyclists to the footpath however, additional crash problems
    may be introduced. More conflicts with pedestrians are likely for
    example and there may be less reaction time for driveway or side-road
    conflicts. Poor surfaces and geometrics are also likely to contribute
    to the footpath hazards. In fact, a number of studies have found that
    the crash rate involvement when cycling on footpaths (or "sidewalks"😉
    is considerably higher than on the road or off-road cycle paths.

    Aultman-Hall & Hall (1998) surveyed 1600 respondents around Ottawa,
    Canada, recording regular routes taken to work/education, amounts of
    cycle travel, and crash details. From "event" exposures calculated on
    roads, off-road paths, and sidewalks, they found that the likelihood
    of fall or injury (per 105 km) was four times higher on sidewalks than
    roads. These findings caused the authors to dig a little deeper on
    this issue. When Aultman-Hall & Adams (1998) looked at cycle travel
    data from >2500 respondents in both Ottawa & Toronto, Canada, the mean
    fall/collision rates on sidewalks were 2-10 times higher than equivalent
    incidents on roads or off-road paths. A large proportion of sidewalk
    incidents involved other cyclists, and surface conditions were also a
    factor, e.g. cracked or uneven pavements.
    [...]
    Moritz (1997) found similar findings from an internet/mail survey of
    "regular" commuters in US/Canada (2300 responses). Although "other"
    facilities (mainly sidewalks) accounted for only 0.8% of distances
    travelled, they accounted for 4.4% of crashes reported, a ratio of >5
    compared with the on-road ratio. Further investigation by Moritz (1998)
    on the relative crash rate for different facilities showed sidewalks to
    be extremely dangerous (16 times worse than other facilities).
    [...]
    But while moving the cyclist off the road may be reducing their injury
    severities, it may be transferring serious injuries to pedestrians that
    are hit by them (albeit fairly rarely fatally). And in fact, Aultman-Hall
    & Hall (1998) found in their survey that the likelihood of "major"
    injuries was still about 1.7 times greater on sidewalks than roads.
    ===============

    (I do note that the NZ paper does say that it is possible that the
    people who ride on footpaths do so because they are not confident on
    roads and so are more likely to crash anyway.)

    Zebee

  7. Zebee Johnstone said:

    Here you go, a couple from the first 10 hits on a google
    search of accident statistics bicycle riding on footpath

    I'm unconvinced. Given the popularity of off-road cycling here
    in the ACT, I note the absence of news stories about serious
    injury to cyclists or pedestrians on paths compared to the
    all-too-frequent stories about serious injury involving cars on
    roads. My own experience in coming across accident scenes only
    reinforces this.

    Quoted message said:

    ===============
    www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2000/qld/qisuissue57.pdf

    There is some indication that the provision of bike paths and
    lanes separating bike traffic from other users may provide a
    degree of pro- tection from cycle/motor vehicle crashes but
    only if it is in the same direction as other traffic 8,9 .
    Riding on the footpath, on the other hand, has been found to
    be more dangerous than riding on the road 9,10,11 . This
    suggests that allowing cyclists to ride on footpaths may not
    have been based on the best available evidence

    The three references cited aren't immediately available. But I
    do note that one is about accidents at intersections (where
    footpath riders are forced onto the road presumably), and
    another concerns young children (who are going to have
    accidents on their bikes anyway, and are better off if those
    don't involve cars).

    John

    Quoted message said:

    ===============
    www.can.org.nz/research/Research-0201-Sidewalks.pdf

    In a recent New Zealand study (Munster et al 2001), it was
    estimated from hospital data that four times as many cyclists
    are injured from cycle-only crashes on the road or footpath
    than those involved in a motor vehicle collision (note that
    this doesn't include off-road mountain-biking track accidents
    either). When looking specifically at children, Safekids
    (2001) concurred,
    [..]
    Closer to home and concentrating on road-specific crashes,
    LTSA injury crash data for 1996-2000 shows that 58% of urban
    cycle crashes are intersection crashes (including driveways).
    Looking specifically at on-road crash movements that could be
    avoided on a footpath (e.g. hit car door, rear-ended), less
    than a quarter of all on-road crashes appear to be likely
    candidates, based on crash movement codes.

    In moving cyclists to the footpath however, additional crash
    problems may be introduced. More conflicts with pedestrians
    are likely for example and there may be less reaction time for
    driveway or side-road conflicts. Poor surfaces and geometrics
    are also likely to contribute to the footpath hazards. In
    fact, a number of studies have found that the crash rate
    involvement when cycling on footpaths (or "sidewalks"😉 is
    considerably higher than on the road or off-road cycle paths.

    Aultman-Hall & Hall (1998) surveyed 1600 respondents around
    Ottawa, Canada, recording regular routes taken to
    work/education, amounts of
    cycle travel, and crash details. From "event" exposures
    calculated on roads, off-road paths, and sidewalks, they found
    that the likelihood of fall or injury (per 105 km) was four
    times higher on sidewalks than roads. These findings caused
    the authors to dig a little deeper on
    this issue. When Aultman-Hall & Adams (1998) looked at cycle
    travel data from >2500 respondents in both Ottawa & Toronto,
    Canada, the mean fall/collision rates on sidewalks were 2-10
    times higher than equivalent incidents on roads or off-road
    paths. A large proportion of sidewalk incidents involved other
    cyclists, and surface conditions were also a factor, e.g.
    cracked or uneven pavements.
    [...]
    Moritz (1997) found similar findings from an internet/mail
    survey of "regular" commuters in US/Canada (2300 responses).
    Although "other" facilities (mainly sidewalks) accounted for
    only 0.8% of distances travelled, they accounted for 4.4% of
    crashes reported, a ratio of >5 compared with the on-road
    ratio. Further investigation by Moritz (1998) on the relative
    crash rate for different facilities showed sidewalks to be
    extremely dangerous (16 times worse than other facilities).
    [...]
    But while moving the cyclist off the road may be reducing
    their injury severities, it may be transferring serious
    injuries to pedestrians that are hit by them (albeit fairly
    rarely fatally). And in fact, Aultman-Hall & Hall (1998) found
    in their survey that the likelihood of "major" injuries was
    still about 1.7 times greater on sidewalks than roads.
    ===============

    (I do note that the NZ paper does say that it is possible that
    the people who ride on footpaths do so because they are not
    confident on roads and so are more likely to crash anyway.)

    Zebee

  8. In aus.bicycle on Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:21:46 +1000

    John Henderson said:
    Zebee Johnstone said:

    Here you go, a couple from the first 10 hits on a google
    search of accident statistics bicycle riding on footpath

    I'm unconvinced. Given the popularity of off-road cycling here
    in the ACT, I note the absence of news stories about serious
    injury to cyclists or pedestrians on paths compared to the
    all-too-frequent stories about serious injury involving cars on
    roads. My own experience in coming across accident scenes only
    reinforces this.

    So where are the peds and the cyclists?

    Are there cyclists doing 40kmh on footpaths outside homes, or other
    areas where peds are not expecting cyclists?

    In my experience of Canberra the cyclists stick to "cycle paths"
    mostly, where peds expect cyclists and where peds are not that common.

    Are "footpaths" in Canberra the same as "footpaths" in Sydney? In
    size, surface, users?

    How similar do you think Canberra cycling is to footpath cycling in
    any other state in Oz?

    Zebee

  9. Zebee Johnstone said:

    So where are the peds and the cyclists?

    Are there cyclists doing 40kmh on footpaths outside homes, or
    other areas where peds are not expecting cyclists?

    I wouldn't expect to ride at 40 km/h too close to houses, or
    past unsuspecting pedestrians on a narrowish footpath. But
    where an unobstructed footpath has clear visibility through
    parkland for example, I don't see a problem.

    Quoted message said:

    In my experience of Canberra the cyclists stick to "cycle
    paths" mostly, where peds expect cyclists and where peds are
    not that common.

    Are "footpaths" in Canberra the same as "footpaths" in Sydney?
    In size, surface, users?

    I haven't lived in Sydney, but in Brisbane, Adelaide and
    Canberra, footpaths are much of a muchness. If anything,
    Canberra footpaths have less traffic, but the driveways have no
    gates because the front yards are unfenced.

    Quoted message said:

    How similar do you think Canberra cycling is to footpath
    cycling in any other state in Oz?

    There might be more opportunities for a safe fast spurt on a
    Canberra footpath, but such opportunities certainly exist
    elsewhere I've lived.

    John

  10. John Henderson said:
    Zebee Johnstone said:

    Here you go, a couple from the first 10 hits on a google
    search of accident statistics bicycle riding on footpath
    ===============
    www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2000/qld/qisuissue57.pdf

    Riding on the footpath, on the other hand, has been found to
    be more dangerous than riding on the road 9,10,11 . This
    suggests that allowing cyclists to ride on footpaths may not
    have been based on the best available evidence

    The three references cited aren't immediately available. But I
    do note that one is about accidents at intersections (where
    footpath riders are forced onto the road presumably)

    LOL

    Tell me about the footpaths in Canberra that allow cyclists to travel all
    across town, through intersections without going onto the roads please. Here
    in Melbourne any footpath that meets a road intersection involves some form
    of on-road crossing! I'd guess that's where a lot of car-bike accidents will
    happen. Maybe.

    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

  11. quote='John Henderson'Zebee Johnstone said:

    Here you go, a couple from the first 10 hits on a google
    search of accident statistics bicycle riding on footpath

    I'm unconvinced. Given the popularity of off-road cycling here
    in the ACT, I note the absence of news stories about serious
    injury to cyclists or pedestrians on paths compared to the
    all-too-frequent stories about serious injury involving cars on
    roads. My own experience in coming across accident scenes only
    reinforces this.[/quote]
    Let's get this straight. You've been given what you've asked for; facts. Those facts don't match your perception so you'll go with your preception over facts?

  12. John Henderson said:


    I'm unconvinced. Given the popularity of off-road cycling here
    in the ACT, I note the absence of news stories about serious
    injury to cyclists or pedestrians on paths compared to the
    all-too-frequent stories about serious injury involving cars on
    roads.

    Ok so your basis for factual information is "news stories" as in from the media ????

    Intruder alert, Intruder alert......!

  13. MikeyOz said:

    Ok so your basis for factual information is "news stories" as in from the media ????

    Intruder alert, Intruder alert......!

    Claxon!

  14. EuanB said:

    Let's get this straight.

    Yes, that would be good.

    Quoted message said:

    You've been given what you've asked for;
    facts.

    I asked for statistics, but haven't seen those. The contrary
    assertions I've seen have been lacking in facts too.

    Quoted message said:

    Those facts don't match your perception so you'll go with your
    preception over facts?

    When "experts" make claims which differ from one's experience,
    the rational thing to do is to question the basis for their
    claims.

    John

  15. PeteSig said:

    Tell me about the footpaths in Canberra that allow cyclists to
    travel all across town, through intersections without going
    onto the roads please. Here in Melbourne any footpath that
    meets a road intersection involves some form of on-road
    crossing! I'd guess that's where a lot of car-bike accidents
    will happen. Maybe.

    Maybe some cyclists should simply obey the laws and _walk_ their
    bikes across the roads at crossings (not that I generally do, I
    hasten to add).

    John

  16. MikeyOz said:

    Ok so your basis for factual information is "news stories" as
    in from the media ????

    Yes, local deaths and serious injuries do get reliably
    mentioned. How often do we read a story here about another
    Australian cyclist killed in a road accident? Far too often
    IMHO.

    And how many times do we read about a cyclist or pedestrian
    killed in an off-road accident? The one in this thread is on
    foreign soil. If it were a usual cyclist-killed-by-car
    overseas it wouldn't even have been deemed newsworthy.

    John

  17. EuanB said:

    Let's get this straight. You've been given what you've asked
    for; facts. Those facts don't match your perception so you'll
    go with your preception over facts?

    With some hard supporting evidence, I'd certainly concede that
    more accidents happen on paths than on roads.

    I'm concerned about which is more dangerous. I don't consider
    minor low-speed bumps dangerous.

    Perhaps we're just talking at cross-purposes.

    John

  18. John Henderson said:
    PeteSig said:

    Tell me about the footpaths in Canberra that allow cyclists to
    travel all across town, through intersections without going
    onto the roads please. Here in Melbourne any footpath that
    meets a road intersection involves some form of on-road
    crossing! I'd guess that's where a lot of car-bike accidents
    will happen. Maybe.

    Maybe some cyclists should simply obey the laws and _walk_ their
    bikes across the roads at crossings (not that I generally do, I
    hasten to add).

    And most other people don't, hence the inherent higher risks of footpath
    riding, as shown in statistics quoted to you. Oh, and as for legalities, yes
    it is illegal to ride across a marked pedestrian crossing. But I'm thinking
    of those unmarked minor road crossings, the sidestreet entering a main road.
    Here the legality of riding is not clear. Then of course, there are the
    problems of all those driveways, most with zero visibility. Not all suburbs
    have the open expanses of Canberra.
    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

  19. quote='John Henderson'EuanB said:

    Let's get this straight. You've been given what you've asked
    for; facts. Those facts don't match your perception so you'll
    go with your preception over facts?

    With some hard supporting evidence, I'd certainly concede that
    more accidents happen on paths than on roads.

    I'm concerned about which is more dangerous. I don't consider
    minor low-speed bumps dangerous.

    Perhaps we're just talking at cross-purposes.[/QUOTE]
    In France it is safer to ride a bicycle on the road than it is to drive a car on the road, yet in the same country the deadliest infrastructure that cyclists use are two way bike paths.

    There is a presumption that just because a car isn't involved a bicycle accident need not be serious. That is not the case.

  20. John Henderson said:

    > Those facts don't match your perception so you'll go with your

    Quoted message said:

    preception over facts?

    When "experts" make claims which differ from one's experience,
    the rational thing to do is to question the basis for their
    claims.


    Then you won't be adverse to a bit of legwork.

    Start with http://cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities

    You'll find a large number of studies which have found segregated cycling to be deficient.

    Where are your references which demonstrate segregated cycling facilities promote safety for cyclists?

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