Brompton thread again

elyob said:

Right, just looking at prices with a friend (who bought an M3L for
£480 last year), and the same model is now £600 in Evans, £585 in
Cycle Surgery.

CS refused my 10% LCC discount so I walked. I won't buy from Evans on
principle.

On principle of what?

marc said:

elyob said:

Right, just looking at prices with a friend (who bought an M3L for
£480 last year), and the same model is now £600 in Evans, £585 in
Cycle Surgery.

Quoted message said:

CS refused my 10% LCC discount so I walked. I won't buy from Evans on
principle.

On principle of what?

On principle that they shafted me a year ago, then lied about it. All
over a measly rack that was unfit for purpose.

elyob said:

marc said:

elyob said:

Right, just looking at prices with a friend (who bought an M3L for
£480 last year), and the same model is now £600 in Evans, £585 in
Cycle Surgery.
CS refused my 10% LCC discount so I walked. I won't buy from Evans on
principle.

On principle of what?

On principle that they shafted me a year ago, then lied about it. All
over a measly rack that was unfit for purpose.

Fairy muff

In article said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

If the taxman ever queries it, it's going to be easier to persuade him
that a Brompton is largely used for commuting than that an expensive
race bike is. Perhaps you should mention here that it isn't just a
race bike, you'll be training on it by commuting on it :-)
Not that it's likely to be queried anyway.

(Alan Braggins) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, elyobwrote:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

If the taxman ever queries it, it's going to be easier to persuade him
that a Brompton is largely used for commuting than that an expensive
race bike is. Perhaps you should mention here that it isn't just a
race bike, you'll be training on it by commuting on it :-)
Not that it's likely to be queried anyway.

Well, it will be used for the commute ... as it's 17 miles each way a
brompton isn't the ideal distance bike 🙂

Saying that, I had to pedal hard the other week to stay up with a
brommie. He must have been giving it his all!

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

--
simonk

"simonk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

?

Wife is currently doing exactly that.

cheers,
clive

simonk said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm
thinking of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the
full £1000 + more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

Depends on the implementation of the scheme. ie. whatever your employer
chooses to offer to its employees.

The only strong rules are that
a) the offer must be equitable. If its available to one employee, its
available to all who choose it.
b) if using the combination of several years' credit purchase via salary
sacrifice (common for most medium/large employers, and those using
outsourcers such as Halfords), then the consumer credit legislation comes
into play. This is the cause of the £1000 limit on many schemes, as offering
more than £1000 means the employer has a shed-load of credit legislation
hoops to jump through.

If you are in a position to control what the company does, then there are no
real limits (because you don't need to do the salary sacrifice via credit
purchase bit). I'm the director of a company employing two people (me and
the other director). If we wanted to offer our employees (two of us) £5,000
bikes, the company could buy them with its money, reclaim the VAT, then
allow the employees to use them. The company gets the VAT back and buys the
bikes before its profits are calculated (so no corporation tax on the money
used to buy the bikes). The employees do not have to declare the use of a
bike as a benefit in kind, so no income tax or national insurance to pay on
it. A few years down the line, the company can then sell the second hand
bikes to anyone (probably its employees) at a fair second hand price.
It would need to charge VAT on that sale, and the money received would then
be taxed as part of the company profits. Though in many cases the value of a
3 year plus (ordinary) bike which is then somewhat worn is quite low.
Quite how one would value a very expensive bike's depreciation, or something
which tends to hold its value on the second hand market (eg. Brompton) is
open to some serious speculation. If done completely correctly, its second
hand value, in percentage terms, is very different to an "off-the shelf £450
mountain bike".

Yes, when I need a new bicycle, buying the bike via the company has obvious
attractions.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Response to Nigel Cliffe:

Quoted message said:

Quite how one would value a very expensive bike's depreciation, or something
which tends to hold its value on the second hand market (eg. Brompton) is
open to some serious speculation.

I suppose if you wanted to Do It Right, the company could bung it on
Ebay, and you could bid for it.

[And come to think of it, would it be your fault if the company misspelt
"Brompton" in the description? ;-)]

--
Mark, UK
"History teaches us that whenever a weak and ignorant people possess a
thing which a strong and enlightened people want, it must be yielded up
peaceably."

elyob said:

Saying that, I had to pedal hard the other week to stay up with a
brommie. He must have been giving it his all!

IIRC I once saw a picture of a Mr. C. Boardman on one. I don't
imagine he'd have to try very hard to leave me in the dust even if
I was on one of his smart looking top of the line racers...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Clive George said:

"simonk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

?

Wife is currently doing exactly that.

It seems to be a grey and slippery point. I have been assured by
the chap who was behind implementing our scheme that one can't (not
his idea, btw), but I have also spoken to representatives of the
cycling trade who suggest they have taken orders for Trek Madones
from my fellow employees. Do, as our American cousins would say,
"the math"... ;-/

Seeing as the DfTs own leaflet suggests one can buy panniers and
racks as "safety equipment", I wrote to CycleScheme asking if it
was possible to wangle a Rohloff on it for an existing bike, but
sadly they wouldn't go for that one on the basis that my bike and
my employer's hub gear and back wheel were not a suitably distinct
combination. Bummer...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Mark McNeill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Response to Nigel Cliffe:

Quoted message said:

Quite how one would value a very expensive bike's depreciation, or
something
which tends to hold its value on the second hand market (eg. Brompton) is
open to some serious speculation.

I suppose if you wanted to Do It Right, the company could bung it on
Ebay, and you could bid for it.

[And come to think of it, would it be your fault if the company misspelt
"Brompton" in the description? ;-)]

--
Mark, UK
"History teaches us that whenever a weak and ignorant people possess a
thing which a strong and enlightened people want, it must be yielded up
peaceably."

FWIW I spent almost exactly £1000 on buying my Brompton & accessories on our
company's cycle to work scheme. At the end of the 18 months I paid £31 to
keep it.

Toby

Peter Clinch of said:

Clive George said:

"simonk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

> Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
> of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
> more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

?

Wife is currently doing exactly that.

It seems to be a grey and slippery point. I have been assured by
the chap who was behind implementing our scheme that one can't (not
his idea, btw), but I have also spoken to representatives of the
cycling trade who suggest they have taken orders for Trek Madones
from my fellow employees. Do, as our American cousins would say,
"the math"... ;-/

I looked at all the details of the scheme for implementing it where I work.
The Inland Revenue rules are compatible with topping up with your own money.
However there's nothing to stop employers adding their own no top-ups
restriction if they want to keep the scheme simple. Also the schemes run by
third parties like Halfords might choose to forbid top-ups, although I can't
quite see the motivation for a retailer to do so.
--
Steph Peters
Chorlton Wanderers Cycling Group
Monthly slow and easy rides from South Manchester
http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/cycling/chwan.htm

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

You can. I have done so as has a colleague. You don't get the tax
benefits on the top up but otherwise there are no problems topping up.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Nigel Cliffe said:

If you are in a position to control what the company does, then there are no
real limits (because you don't need to do the salary sacrifice via credit
purchase bit). I'm the director of a company employing two people (me and
the other director). If we wanted to offer our employees (two of us) £5,000
bikes, the company could buy them with its money, reclaim the VAT, then
allow the employees to use them. The company gets the VAT back and buys the
bikes before its profits are calculated (so no corporation tax on the money
used to buy the bikes). The employees do not have to declare the use of a
bike as a benefit in kind, so no income tax or national insurance to pay on
it. A few years down the line, the company can then sell the second hand
bikes to anyone (probably its employees) at a fair second hand price.
It would need to charge VAT on that sale, and the money received would then
be taxed as part of the company profits. Though in many cases the value of a
3 year plus (ordinary) bike which is then somewhat worn is quite low.
Quite how one would value a very expensive bike's depreciation, or something
which tends to hold its value on the second hand market (eg. Brompton) is
open to some serious speculation. If done completely correctly, its second
hand value, in percentage terms, is very different to an "off-the shelf £450
mountain bike".

Second hand value <> Depreciated book value

The former reflects the real world (tm), the latter is a figment of an
accountants imagination and is how your company books would view the
value. Should you choose to depreciate the value of the bike to zero
over three years, you not only get a bike at the end of it that you (the
company) can sell for a nominal sum, but you also get to write off the
depreciated value against the books as the asset depreciates.

Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, let alone a tax one. Consult with
someone you are paying for advice.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"My God! The thought of that evil man, loose in London--with
money, from God only knows what source--fomenting riot and
rebellion during a public emergency--and in control of an Engine-
driven press! It's nightmarish!" (Gibson-Sterling, "The
Difference Engine"😉

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Second hand value <> Depreciated book value

The former reflects the real world (tm), the latter is a figment of an
accountants imagination and is how your company books would view the
value. Should you choose to depreciate the value of the bike to zero
over three years, you not only get a bike at the end of it that you (the
company) can sell for a nominal sum, but you also get to write off the
depreciated value against the books as the asset depreciates.

Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, let alone a tax one. Consult with
someone you are paying for advice.

A valid disclaimer. Your benefit in kind tax is based on the market
value not the book value.
--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:59:14 +0100, Tony Raven wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm thinking
of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the full £1000 +
more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

You can. I have done so as has a colleague. You don't get the tax
benefits on the top up but otherwise there are no problems topping up.

When did you do this? I was about to buy a more expensive (than GBP1000)
bike in January 07, but between the order being placed and being fulfilled
there was a ruling from the tax man (early Feb IIRC) that topping up was not
permitted. So I had to can my order and get something cheaper.

This is on the Halfords scheme, by the way.

I imagine this is on the basis that the bike is supposed to belong to your
employer, and therefore they need to pay for all of it.

Employers can set a limit of higher than 1000 but they need to obtain a
credit licence, which many won't bother with for the sake of the scheme. If
you are your own employer though, as others have pointed out, you have
considerably more latitude.

--
simonk

In news:[email hidden],
simonk <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:59:14 +0100, Tony Raven wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:33:17 +0100, elyob wrote
(in article
<[email hidden]>😉:

> Oh, and my company are about to start a cycle scheme, but I'm
> thinking of saving that for an expensive race bike and using the
> full £1000 + more of my own money. Is this a good idea?

You can't top up with your own money, unfortunately

You can. I have done so as has a colleague. You don't get the tax
benefits on the top up but otherwise there are no problems topping
up.

When did you do this? I was about to buy a more expensive (than
GBP1000) bike in January 07, but between the order being placed and
being fulfilled there was a ruling from the tax man (early Feb IIRC)
that topping up was not permitted. So I had to can my order and get
something cheaper.

This is on the Halfords scheme, by the way.

I imagine this is on the basis that the bike is supposed to belong to
your employer, and therefore they need to pay for all of it.

Employers can set a limit of higher than 1000 but they need to obtain
a credit licence, which many won't bother with for the sake of the
scheme. If you are your own employer though, as others have pointed
out, you have considerably more latitude.

From the intranet of my employers:

"If you want to spend more than the value of your voucher you can pay the
extra yourself, but remember any amount over the value of the voucher will
not be subject to any tax or National Insurance relief."

Dated July 2007.

Your employer may vary.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Every establishment needs an opposition.

Dave Larrington said:

From the intranet of my employers:

"If you want to spend more than the value of your voucher you can pay the
extra yourself, but remember any amount over the value of the voucher will
not be subject to any tax or National Insurance relief."

Dated July 2007.

Your employer may vary.

Unfortunately mine does.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Wit levels low. Attempting to compensate.