Traffic question

Greens said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red are
allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the red
light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll down the
right side of them and take the right turn after checking for crossing
traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and wait for motor
vehicle traffic in front of me to move? This will require me to stop, unclip
and stand. I won't be able to accelerate as fast as a car and I'll be
wobbling a little as I take off with cars coming up behind me and probably
pretty fast because people tend to be impatient at this busy corner.

What's the right thing to do?

Depends on where you are, probably.

Quoted message said:

What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)

See above

Quoted message said:

What would a cop want me to do?

He/she probably doesn't care.

Quoted message said:

What's the safest thing to do?

Strictly speaking, staying back and waiting your turn would be the
safest, assuming your assertive enough to take the lane. I'd filter
through if I could see that enough people were turning left. I don't
like to play leap-frog.

\\paul

Greens said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red are
allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the red
light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll down the
right side of them and take the right turn after checking for crossing
traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and wait for motor
vehicle traffic in front of me to move?

I would and so would the bike cops around here. It's always safer to
clear an intersection. That's assuming you're absolutely sure the car
up front isn't going to turn right into you regardless of whether
they're blinking or not. Legal? Maybe--but motorists often appreciate
it when they don't have to worry about a cyclist. So again, your
choice, but done safely, it's what I'd do--regardless of legality--and
don't take the right of way if it ain't yours, no offers on Sundays,
no double coupons.

Quoted message said:

This will require me to stop, unclip
and stand. I won't be able to accelerate as fast as a car and I'll be
wobbling a little as I take off with cars coming up behind me and probably
pretty fast because people tend to be impatient at this busy corner.

What's the right thing to do?
What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)

It's state by state, but I'd rather bend the law and get out of the
intersection, than be 100% legal and in the hospital.

Quoted message said:

What would a cop want me to do?

I doubt any but the most uptight would even blink an eye if you did
this slowly and safely.

Quoted message said:

What's the safest thing to do?

It's always safest to not be in an intersection, if getting out of the
intersection isn't going to be in itself dangerous or [censored] anybody
off.

Quoted message said:

There's another option - several really. I could pull into a business
driveway and cut the corner by riding through the parking lot

I'll do that if it's a really nasty intersection, but it's technically
illegal.

Quoted message said:

or I could get
off and walk.

That gives you all the rights of a ped, which definitely is the best
legal option.

Quoted message said:

Really, this is the safest way to go. I rarely chose it. This
is a type of situtation where car drivers tend to think themselves very put
upon by a cyclist. They're willing to share the road on the straight
sections with few intersections (oh, they're so generous), but when it comes
to a situation like this, motorists are almost violent in asserting that
they own the road in fact even if not legally. I don't think I've ever heard
of a cop correcting a motorist for endangering a cyclist in this sort of
situation.

Why don't I just get off and walk? Partly because I know the rules and I
feel I have a right to the road. Partly because I've got plans that don't
include walking. It should be safe to pass on the right if traffic is
stopped. Cars, oversized monsters that they are should never bully cyclists.
It should be something the police are interested in stopping. And partly
because I am subject to road rage too or at least something I call
"irrational cycling exuberance". Irrational cycling exuberance is taking
actions while cycling that might be legal, but just aren't worth it.

Those of you still talking to me, please avoid acting as though you're so
good at safe cycling that you've never felt a twinge of exuberance in your
life. Lectures can be so boring.

Just be polite and safe, a tactical length seatstay mounted Mossberg
is optional.

Greens said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red are
allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the red
light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll down the
right side of them and take the right turn after checking for crossing
traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and wait for motor
vehicle traffic in front of me to move? This will require me to stop, unclip
and stand. I won't be able to accelerate as fast as a car and I'll be
wobbling a little as I take off with cars coming up behind me and probably
pretty fast because people tend to be impatient at this busy corner.

What's the right thing to do?
What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)
What would a cop want me to do?
What's the safest thing to do?

There's another option - several really. I could pull into a business
driveway and cut the corner by riding through the parking lot or I could get
off and walk. Really, this is the safest way to go. I rarely chose it. This
is a type of situtation where car drivers tend to think themselves very put
upon by a cyclist. They're willing to share the road on the straight
sections with few intersections (oh, they're so generous), but when it comes
to a situation like this, motorists are almost violent in asserting that
they own the road in fact even if not legally. I don't think I've ever heard
of a cop correcting a motorist for endangering a cyclist in this sort of
situation.

Why don't I just get off and walk? Partly because I know the rules and I
feel I have a right to the road. Partly because I've got plans that don't
include walking. It should be safe to pass on the right if traffic is
stopped. Cars, oversized monsters that they are should never bully cyclists.
It should be something the police are interested in stopping. And partly
because I am subject to road rage too or at least something I call
"irrational cycling exuberance". Irrational cycling exuberance is taking
actions while cycling that might be legal, but just aren't worth it.

Those of you still talking to me, please avoid acting as though you're so
good at safe cycling that you've never felt a twinge of exuberance in your
life. Lectures can be so boring.

I would roll along the side and take the right. Of course being wary
of any sudden mind-changing being done by the stopped cars. Part of
the advantage of cycling is not having to wait unnecessarily for cars
stuck due to their size.

If the bike fits, and it doesn't cause anyone else any appreciable
fright, discomfort, or risk, I'll ride there.

As far as cutting through a parking lot, that sounds like the most
dangerous option of all, so I don't think I'd ever do that. And I'm
allergic to walking my bike.

As far as what is legal that probably depends, but as long as you are
exercising caution I'd don't see how that could be a problem.

Joseph

Per Greens:

Quoted message said:

What's the right thing to do?
What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)
What would a cop want me to do?
What's the safest thing to do?

Good distinctions....

Quoted message said:

There's another option - several really. I could pull into a business
driveway and cut the corner by riding through the parking lot

I try not to ride on roads/streets - period. I'm not 100%
successful, but I work at it and I'm maybe 85% successful
mileage-wise. But I ride for sport, not transportation.

Having said that, I find parking lots to be noticeably hazardous:
close quarters, people backing out of spaces, the occasional
nitwit just *wheeling* in or out of the lot.... I try to avoid
parking lots.
--
PeteCresswell

Greens said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red are
allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the red
light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll down the
right side of them and take the right turn after checking for crossing
traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and wait for motor
vehicle traffic in front of me to move? This will require me to stop, unclip
and stand. I won't be able to accelerate as fast as a car and I'll be
wobbling a little as I take off with cars coming up behind me and probably
pretty fast because people tend to be impatient at this busy corner.

What's the right thing to do?
What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)
What would a cop want me to do?
What's the safest thing to do?

There's another option - several really. I could pull into a business
driveway and cut the corner by riding through the parking lot or I could get
off and walk. Really, this is the safest way to go. I rarely chose it. This
is a type of situtation where car drivers tend to think themselves very put
upon by a cyclist. They're willing to share the road on the straight
sections with few intersections (oh, they're so generous), but when it comes
to a situation like this, motorists are almost violent in asserting that
they own the road in fact even if not legally. I don't think I've ever heard
of a cop correcting a motorist for endangering a cyclist in this sort of
situation.

Why don't I just get off and walk? Partly because I know the rules and I
feel I have a right to the road. Partly because I've got plans that don't
include walking. It should be safe to pass on the right if traffic is
stopped. Cars, oversized monsters that they are should never bully cyclists.
It should be something the police are interested in stopping. And partly
because I am subject to road rage too or at least something I call
"irrational cycling exuberance". Irrational cycling exuberance is taking
actions while cycling that might be legal, but just aren't worth it.

Those of you still talking to me, please avoid acting as though you're so
good at safe cycling that you've never felt a twinge of exuberance in your
life. Lectures can be so boring.

UVC, adopted in most states, says no passing on the right unless you
are in a marked bike lane. You are obligated to wait in line, just
like a car. But, most police officers do not care, and in Oregon,
the Bicycle Transportation Aliance got the UVC changed to allow
passing on the right. See 2(c) below:

SECTION 1. ORS 811.415 is amended to read:
811.415. (1) A person commits the offense of unsafe passing on the
right if the person:
(a) Drives a vehicle to overtake and pass upon the right of another
vehicle at any time not permitted under this section.
(b) Drives a vehicle to overtake and pass upon the right of another
vehicle at any time by driving off the paved portion of the highway.
(2) For purposes of this section, a person may drive a vehicle to
overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle under any of the
following circumstances:
(a) Overtaking and passing upon the right is permitted if:
(A) The overtaken vehicle is making or the driver has signaled an
intention to make a left turn;
(B) The paved portion of the highway is of sufficient width to allow
two or more lanes of vehicles to proceed lawfully in the same
direction as the overtaking vehicle; and
(C) The roadway ahead of the overtaking vehicle is unobstructed for a
sufficient distance to permit passage by the overtaking vehicle to be
made in safety.
(b) Overtaking and passing upon the right is permitted if the
overtaken vehicle is proceeding along a roadway in the left lane of
two or more clearly marked lanes allocated exclusively to vehicular
traffic moving in the same direction as the overtaking driver.
(c) Overtaking and passing upon the right is permitted if the
overtaking vehicle is a bicycle that may safely make the passage under
the existing conditions.
(3) The offense described in this section, unsafe passing on the
right, is a Class B traffic violation.

Even before this law (2005), the Portland Police would not ticket for
passing on the right because it kept bicycles and traffic moving.
Passing on the right is safe if you look out for motorists pulling in
and out and opening doors. One problem is where the motorists leave a
gap in traffic to let somoneone across. It is hard to see the gap
from a distance, and all of the sudden, there is a car pulled across
in front of you. Anyway, I would exercise caution and roll up the
right. -- Jay Beattie.

Greens said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red are
allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the red
light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll down the
right side of them and take the right turn after checking for crossing
traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and wait for motor
vehicle traffic in front of me to move? ...

I'd just go up the right and turn.

Where I live, I doubt any cop is going to feel motivated to stop me as
long as I'm not actually imeding motor traffic, and by passing on the
right, I'm not.

Although I have noticed, that when I am making a turn, cars passing me
around the turn tend to get edgy about keeping their distance. Most seem
to follow me around the corner, and wait until they can see I'm still
riding on the shoulder of the road to pass by.
~

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:49:53 -0000, landotter <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or I could get
off and walk.

That gives you all the rights of a ped, which definitely is the best
legal option.

Maybe. I thought wheeling a bicycle was still "conducting a carriage",
e.g. you don't have right of way on a ped xing if you're wheeling a
bike, but if you carry it you become a pedestrian.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

"Kinky Cowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe. I thought wheeling a bicycle was still "conducting a carriage",
e.g. you don't have right of way on a ped xing if you're wheeling a
bike, but if you carry it you become a pedestrian.

Which country? You can definitely wheel a bike as a pedestrian in
England/Wales - Crank vs Brooks.

cheers,
clive

"Greens" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Let's say I come to a red light at a T intersection. Right turns on red
are allowed. There is a gap on the right side of the cars parked at the
red light. None of them are taking the right turn on red. Should I roll
down the right side of them and take the right turn after checking for
crossing traffic or should I stay behind the last car at the light and
wait for motor vehicle traffic in front of me to move? This will require
me to stop, unclip and stand. I won't be able to accelerate as fast as a
car and I'll be wobbling a little as I take off with cars coming up behind
me and probably pretty fast because people tend to be impatient at this
busy corner.

What's the right thing to do?
What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)
What would a cop want me to do?
What's the safest thing to do?

There's another option - several really. I could pull into a business
driveway and cut the corner by riding through the parking lot or I could
get off and walk. Really, this is the safest way to go. I rarely chose it.
This is a type of situtation where car drivers tend to think themselves
very put upon by a cyclist. They're willing to share the road on the
straight sections with few intersections (oh, they're so generous), but
when it comes to a situation like this, motorists are almost violent in
asserting that they own the road in fact even if not legally. I don't
think I've ever heard of a cop correcting a motorist for endangering a
cyclist in this sort of situation.

Why don't I just get off and walk? Partly because I know the rules and I
feel I have a right to the road. Partly because I've got plans that don't
include walking. It should be safe to pass on the right if traffic is
stopped. Cars, oversized monsters that they are should never bully
cyclists. It should be something the police are interested in stopping.
And partly because I am subject to road rage too or at least something I
call "irrational cycling exuberance". Irrational cycling exuberance is
taking actions while cycling that might be legal, but just aren't worth
it.

Those of you still talking to me, please avoid acting as though you're so
good at safe cycling that you've never felt a twinge of exuberance in your
life. Lectures can be so boring.

I just hold my place in line... just like any other vehicle.

I doubt that moving past a stopped line of cars to make a right turn
is "overtaking" in the sense of the UVC rule. After all, if I was
riding a car and intended to turn, I'd have no compunction about
moving up to the line on the right if there was room. OTOH if going
straight, I strongly recommend taking your place in line. You can
anticipate the start, can accelerate from a stop quite comparably with
cars, and once up to speed, move to the right. Drivers will
appreciate not having to cautiously pass twice, and you lose very
little time/distance doing this.

JG

"JG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I doubt that moving past a stopped line of cars to make a right turn
is "overtaking" in the sense of the UVC rule. After all, if I was
riding a car and intended to turn, I'd have no compunction about
moving up to the line on the right if there was room. OTOH if going
straight, I strongly recommend taking your place in line. You can
anticipate the start, can accelerate from a stop quite comparably with
cars, and once up to speed, move to the right. Drivers will
appreciate not having to cautiously pass twice, and you lose very
little time/distance doing this.

JG

If you were driving a car and wanted to make a right turn, and there wasn't
a right turn lane, would you squeeze by on the right using the shoulder?

Quoted message said:

"JG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I doubt that moving past a stopped line of cars to make a right turn
is "overtaking" in the sense of the UVC rule. After all, if I was
riding a car and intended to turn, I'd have no compunction about
moving up to the line on the right if there was room. OTOH if going
straight, I strongly recommend taking your place in line. You can
anticipate the start, can accelerate from a stop quite comparably with
cars, and once up to speed, move to the right. Drivers will
appreciate not having to cautiously pass twice, and you lose very
little time/distance doing this.

Frank Drackman said:

If you were driving a car and wanted to make a right turn, and there wasn't
a right turn lane, would you squeeze by on the right using the shoulder?

At least in Atlanta, some roads have on the street parking that several
meters before the intersection. Though there is no marked turn lane,
there certainly is ample room room to squeeze by -- roughly a car's worth 😉

Perhaps this is what JG meant.

\\paul

Quoted message said:

"JG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I doubt that moving past a stopped line of cars to make a right turn
is "overtaking" in the sense of the UVC rule. After all, if I was
riding a car and intended to turn, I'd have no compunction about
moving up to the line on the right if there was room. OTOH if going
straight, I strongly recommend taking your place in line. You can
anticipate the start, can accelerate from a stop quite comparably with
cars, and once up to speed, move to the right. Drivers will
appreciate not having to cautiously pass twice, and you lose very
little time/distance doing this.

Frank Drackman said:

If you were driving a car and wanted to make a right turn, and there wasn't
a right turn lane, would you squeeze by on the right using the shoulder?

At least in Atlanta, some roads have on the street parking that ends
several meters before the intersection. Though there is no marked turn
lane, there certainly is ample room room to squeeze by -- roughly a
car's worth 😉

Perhaps this is what JG meant.

\\paul

I drive in an urban area, so "shoulders" are pretty rare...

In re-reading the OP I realize the stopped cars are intending to turn
right on red, but there is too much traffic on the cross street to do
so. While there may be room for a bicycle to make the turn, popping
out like that is going to startle and irritate the cross traffic
(since drivers _are_ concerned about bicyclists safety and it stesses
them out.) And it's going to make all the cars that passed you
already, pass you again.

OTOH if the backup is such that it will take more than one cycle to
get through the light then I'd go to the front since I did choose a
more flexible means of transportation...

Not sure why Greens wants to pull into traffic so soon, when he seems
to really dislike it...

JG

JG said:

OTOH if going
straight, I strongly recommend taking your place in line. You can
anticipate the start, can accelerate from a stop quite comparably with
cars, and once up to speed, move to the right. Drivers will
appreciate not having to cautiously pass twice, and you lose very
little time/distance doing this.

I usually move to the front just to escape the worst of the fumes.

Chalo

JG said:

OTOH if the backup is such that it will take more than one cycle to
get through the light then I'd go to the front since I did choose a
more flexible means of transportation...

I think we have a winner!

When driving a car and you get stuck behind a lumbering tractor, do
you just drive behind the tractor because it happens to be in front of
you and it is bigger? No, you pass it because a car is more flexible
in traffic than a tractor. Does a pedestrian walking along a road with
no sidewalk wait their turn in a row of cars working their way through
a 4-way stop sign? Each mode of transport has it's limitations and
advantages. Cars go fast but are big and cumbersome and thus prone to
waiting due to lack of space. Bikes go slow but are not inhibited by
lack of space. Waiting like a car is the worst of both worlds. Slow
when going, and lots of downtime waiting for the cars in front.

Joseph

Per [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Does a pedestrian walking along a road with
no sidewalk wait their turn in a row of cars working their way through
a 4-way stop sign? Each mode of transport has it's limitations and
advantages. Cars go fast but are big and cumbersome and thus prone to
waiting due to lack of space. Bikes go slow but are not inhibited by
lack of space. Waiting like a car is the worst of both worlds. Slow
when going, and lots of downtime waiting for the cars in front.

But sometimes it gets confusing. Last year, driving up from the
shore and caught in a massive traffic jam, I just barely resisted
a sudden urge to yank back on the steering wheel, jump a curb to
the right of me, and go around it all.
--
PeteCresswell

in rec.bicycles.tech 'Greens said:

What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)

That depends on your state.

Quoted message said:

What would a cop want me to do?

Drive a car.

Quoted message said:

What's the safest thing to do?

It depends on the situation.

In general, when I'm driving, I object to cyclists passing on the
right in traffic and then cutting back in front of me after I have
passed them courteously once... I'm *much* less considerate the second
time. Nobody should gripe about the right turn, though. I do as you
describe when I think it's safe.

Jones

"!Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in rec.bicycles.tech 'Greens said:

What's the right thing to do legally? (so that if I get hurt, it's not my
fault)

That depends on your state.

Quoted message said:

What would a cop want me to do?

Drive a car.

Quoted message said:

What's the safest thing to do?

It depends on the situation.

No. The correct answer is stay home and eat potato chips.

Quoted message said:

In general, when I'm driving, I object to cyclists passing on the
right in traffic and then cutting back in front of me after I have
passed them courteously once... I'm *much* less considerate the second
time. Nobody should gripe about the right turn, though. I do as you
describe when I think it's safe.

Jones

I see what you're saying there. I've been annoyed by cyclists and also
trucks that I've had to pass repeatedly because trucks slow going up hills
and cyclists are slower than cars. Legally though, it doesn't matter how
many times you're forced to pass. You never have the right to bully or
endanger people as vulnerable as cyclists. (We are after all green saints of
the vehicle world). I think it would serve us and everyeone if cops watched
for this sort of thing and punished it (this stuff where a motorist gets mad
and starts acting very aggressively). People operating huge missles need to
know they have a responsibility to be more sane than the lightweights. Cops
like to stop speeders because it's easy to document speeding but often it
isn't that dangerous. A sunny day on a dry, straight road with no potholes
and no pedestrians - there just isn't much danger when going 75mph in 60mph
zone. Pushing a cyclist up against a curb while going round a corner creates
a very real danger to one person and it's not the driver of the car who's
creating the danger. Like I said, it's a form of assault with vehicle. I
don't care if they've been aggravated or they're in a hurry. I like the
Dutch and German attitude. It's always to a large extent the motorist's
fault.