Training Plan Question...

3 hours @ .94 is pretty high. I'm not sure I could hold that value of what I am calling FTP right now and it's probably even a tad low (5-10 watts). So, yes - that sounds off. Unless you felt you were in threshold zone for essentially the whole ride.

Re: training peaks plans

I have bought 3 of them so far. If you were going to purchase one at this time of year focusing on training for next spring, I would not buy the spring training plan. Too little threshold time, it's really a "late base, build" phase. If you're starting now to focus on next year's season, then Hunter Allen's threshold improvement would be the range I'd get. He's got some great workouts and it's 16 weeks (for both sets of plans) before you'd run out of workouts.

VW

jsirabella said:

I...but now thinking of buying a plan based upon my ftp from the trainingpeaks.com site. Which plan should I get??

The 12 week plan, the spring plan or something elese you can recommend?? Or should I wait and just keep going until training season kind of begins again?

Sort of depends on when you plan to race next, but I agree with NomadVW, if you're moving into winter base building then you want to focus on core aerobic fitness. IOW the same Tempo, SST, Threshold stuff we've been talking about. Sure those are just shades of gray, but the important thing is to use your off season to build a solid aerobic base so you can get into the high end work as your next race season approaches. I define base building these days as increasing FTP and steadily building your CTL. If a published training plan helps you build those things then great, but don't go for a plan targeting race season, just a steady solid approach to building base right now.

FWIW, my race season just closed so right now I'm taking a short breather, only riding for fun and detoxing for a couple of weeks before starting all over again with a winter of base building. I'll be focusing on SST and L4 work through February or so before moving into preseason L5 work and above. Hopefully I'll get my FTP up a bit higher than my peak for this season and build a bit more CTL as well. If so I expect to start next season in a very good place and should be ready for shorter, harder interval work prior to the early season races.

Quoted post said:

...on my ride this weekend, I put in my 3 hours or so and got a TSS of like 260 and a IF of less than 1 like .94. It is suppose to be a tempo ride and feel I did well but these numbers I find strange. Are they?

Well, I sure wouldn't call an IF of .94 a Tempo ride. Again I agree with NomadVW, sounds like your FTP is a bit higher than you think. Underestimating your FTP will also overestimate your TSS since TSS = IF^2*hours*100. IOW a 3 hour ride should give you 300*IF*IF for TSS or ~265 for an IF of .94. If your FTP is really higher and your IF should have been more like .8(or even a bit less) for a Tempo ride then your resulting TSS would have been more like 300*0.8^2 or ~190.

Anyway it pays to keep adjusting your FTP as your fitness improves so things like IF and TSS are tallied correctly. Make sure you enter each new FTP with a starting or effective date in WKO+ so the Performance Manager is tabulated correctly. You need to use the little options pull down menu next to your FTP and enter "New Zones" to have FTP applied from a given date forward. Sounds like you're about to do some testing, I suspect you'll be pleased with the results.

Let us know how it goes,
Dave

Well now for the good, the bad and the ugly...well maybe not that ugly??

I could not do the FTP test yesterday as it was a heavy rain day here in NYC so I had to wait till today.

With the rain the day before, the park was relatively crowded but as I start before sunrise it is not terrible until the sun breaks out. I did my usual warm up with the 5 minute all out phase and the 105+ rpm spin after and than 5 minute break and than into the 20 minite time trial.

I definitely felt more speed, confidence and power during this ride. The only issue I did not think about was pacing myself correctly. After 15 minutes I really felt spent and had to push into the lower gears and spin to make up for the loss. I was disappointed in myself for that. Also I let a little ego get the better of me because during the time trail as the park was getting more riders I was getting attention. There was one very strong rider who was with me all the way pretty much not breaking a sweat or pace until I pulled off. The difference was he was in his 53 X 11 it looked like and I was in more like a 53 X 13. I really wanted to stay in a big chainring through out the ride but spent myself a little early. I am glad I never got out of my 53 though. He was also drafting me but I really did not want to draft him at all so everytime he pulled ahead I veered off with all of this took me a little mentally off my main goal of ftp.

In the end though I had an average power of 254 which when corrected as per the book is 241. This is 11 watts higher than my start of 230. Also my NP was 288 but the book says go by average so I go by average...urrr. The thing I was most happy about by surprise was the power grid button and it happen to be more than 28 days so it gave me the two bars to compare during the two times and I was surprised how much my ftp and 5 min had gone up! But my 5 sec is still low and my 1 minute is not even on the chart!!! urrr...

I did plug in the new ftp but the effective date is black outed and I can not change it! It does recalulate all but I can not get effective date to work! Also my wife pointed out that I lost weight, I did not realize but I am now about 3 to 4 pounds lighter and my body fat is at about 12% so I want to change that and see if that can affect the software...

Well what do you think? I do feel a difference and since it has been a month and I feel stronger going to try that Crit again on Saturday with hopefully a little more confidence and starting to look at it more like a training session.

Can not wait till I get a powertap for the aero wheels...I think that may help also.

-JS

-JS

daveryanwyoming said:

Sort of depends on when you plan to race next, but I agree with NomadVW, if you're moving into winter base building then you want to focus on core aerobic fitness. IOW the same Tempo, SST, Threshold stuff we've been talking about. Sure those are just shades of gray, but the important thing is to use your off season to build a solid aerobic base so you can get into the high end work as your next race season approaches. I define base building these days as increasing FTP and steadily building your CTL. If a published training plan helps you build those things then great, but don't go for a plan targeting race season, just a steady solid approach to building base right now.

FWIW, my race season just closed so right now I'm taking a short breather, only riding for fun and detoxing for a couple of weeks before starting all over again with a winter of base building. I'll be focusing on SST and L4 work through February or so before moving into preseason L5 work and above. Hopefully I'll get my FTP up a bit higher than my peak for this season and build a bit more CTL as well. If so I expect to start next season in a very good place and should be ready for shorter, harder interval work prior to the early season races.
Well, I sure wouldn't call an IF of .94 a Tempo ride. Again I agree with NomadVW, sounds like your FTP is a bit higher than you think. Underestimating your FTP will also overestimate your TSS since TSS = IF^2*hours*100. IOW a 3 hour ride should give you 300*IF*IF for TSS or ~265 for an IF of .94. If your FTP is really higher and your IF should have been more like .8(or even a bit less) for a Tempo ride then your resulting TSS would have been more like 300*0.8^2 or ~190.

Anyway it pays to keep adjusting your FTP as your fitness improves so things like IF and TSS are tallied correctly. Make sure you enter each new FTP with a starting or effective date in WKO+ so the Performance Manager is tabulated correctly. You need to use the little options pull down menu next to your FTP and enter "New Zones" to have FTP applied from a given date forward. Sounds like you're about to do some testing, I suspect you'll be pleased with the results.

Let us know how it goes,
Dave

jsirabella said:

Well now for the good, the bad and the ugly...well maybe not that ugly??

Nope, doesn't sound that ugly at all, good job getting out there and giving it a go with crowds and all.

Quoted post said:

The only issue I did not think about was pacing myself correctly. After 15 minutes I really felt spent and had to push into the lower gears and spin to make up for the loss. I was disappointed in myself for that.

Don't beat yourself up too much, pacing is the hardest part of a time trial. I've done them for years and still struggle with nailing the pacing start to finish. Use your weekly 20 minute intervals to get your pacing figured out. If you plan to do time trials in competition you should even start some of them from a standing start with one foot on the ground. Rolling into an interval at speed and starting one from a standstill are different and affect how you settle into your pacing. Anyway it takes practice but it's an easy thing to work into your weekly efforts, just try to start and finish your long efforts at similar power levels.

Quoted post said:

...In the end though I had an average power of 254 which when corrected as per the book is 241. This is 11 watts higher than my start of 230. Also my NP was 288 but the book says go by average so I go by average...urrr.

You should go by AP, but given your pacing issue and late interval fade and the fact that your NP is so much higher (VI = 1.2) it's safe to say your best paced 20 minute interval is a bit higher than the 241 you recorded. How much is debatable. I'd take a swag at 250 watts for FTP and try a 20 minute interval trying to hold it steady and close to 260 or 270 for as long as you can(even longer than 20 minutes if you can). It's quite possible your FTP is even higher than that, but you're better off starting at or below FTP and feeling extra juice at the end than blowing up and limping to the finish. A couple of efforts in the 260 to 290 range should help you pinpoint your FTP. It's one of the reasons I don't use the 20 minute *0.95 estimate. It's just easier to keep track of my high end L4 intervals and just see how they increase over time. FWIW Andy offers that method(tracking your regular repeatable long interval power) as the 2nd best method for estimating FTP behind an actual 40 km tt in competition on a well rested day. And this method isn't backed off by 0.95 or any other factor, basically if you can regularly do 250 watt long intervals(e.g. 20 to 30 minute efforts) during training then just use 250 as your FTP estimate.

Quoted post said:

But my 5 sec is still low and my 1 minute is not even on the chart!!! urrr...

Are you trying to hit your best 5 minute and 1 minute numbers(and 5 second?) on the same day as your 20 minute FTP estimate? Most folks struggle with this approach since all of those efforts take mental and physical energy. If you want to do profiling it pays to do the long efforts and short efforts on different and reasonably rested days. Those short efforts take a lot of concentration and desire because they really hurt, at least the 1 minute effort. The 5 minute effort should be ridden at something like 110% - 120% of your current FTP effort and that's not easy.

Quoted post said:

...I did plug in the new ftp but the effective date is black outed and I can not change it! It does recalulate all but I can not get effective date to work!

You've got to use the little options pulldown menu and select "New Zones" or something like that (I'm at work and don't have my copy of WKO+ in front of me). You can't just enter into the grayed out block without selecting from the menu.

Quoted post said:

...I am now about 3 to 4 pounds lighter and my body fat is at about 12% so I want to change that and see if that can affect the software...

Well climbing at least is all about watts per kilogram so you've just saved yourself some serious effort on longer climbs by dropping 2 kg. Take your previous W/Kg estimate at FTP and your current best FTP estimate with your current weight and you should be pleasantly surprised since you've moved both halves of the equation in the right direction. Good job!

Quoted post said:

...Well what do you think? I do feel a difference and since it has been a month and I feel stronger going to try that Crit again on Saturday with hopefully a little more confidence...

You're definitely making progress based on your posts. Ride a smart race and you may surprise yourself. Keep us posted.

-Dave

Dave,

I have not really done a true test as listed in the book for the 5 second or 1 minute. I was just hoping given the rolling hills around here that it would just happen. I know in the book there is a workout just to test each one of these areas. I will give it a shot next week after I finish the race this week. My workouts have really been mostly SST/L4 and some L3 work. I find it hard given the rolling hills to do L3 and feel I push too hard sometimes. Also we have a smaller circle in CP where I practice sprints into the hill and than a steeper hill where I practice hill climbing. IK thought eithr of those would have given me something on the chart but next week will focus on it.

Let me ask you though, I really been working at making the 53 chainring feel natural for me during this month but now I can not spin it as fast as I would like in the higher gears. I have another bike which is a poprad and while heavier it has three chainring crankset with 51/42/30 while the cervelo is 53/3?. Do you think this bike may be better for crits? I feel maybe I can spin it faster? And the 42 maybe a perfect gear for it??

Also I understand that there is more bumping in a crit so the steel may feel more solid under me?

-JS

daveryanwyoming said:

Nope, doesn't sound that ugly at all, good job getting out there and giving it a go with crowds and all.
Don't beat yourself up too much, pacing is the hardest part of a time trial. I've done them for years and still struggle with nailing the pacing start to finish. Use your weekly 20 minute intervals to get your pacing figured out. If you plan to do time trials in competition you should even start some of them from a standing start with one foot on the ground. Rolling into an interval at speed and starting one from a standstill are different and affect how you settle into your pacing. Anyway it takes practice but it's an easy thing to work into your weekly efforts, just try to start and finish your long efforts at similar power levels.
You should go by AP, but given your pacing issue and late interval fade and the fact that your NP is so much higher (VI = 1.2) it's safe to say your best paced 20 minute interval is a bit higher than the 241 you recorded. How much is debatable. I'd take a swag at 250 watts for FTP and try a 20 minute interval trying to hold it steady and close to 260 or 270 for as long as you can(even longer than 20 minutes if you can). It's quite possible your FTP is even higher than that, but you're better off starting at or below FTP and feeling extra juice at the end than blowing up and limping to the finish. A couple of efforts in the 260 to 290 range should help you pinpoint your FTP. It's one of the reasons I don't use the 20 minute *0.95 estimate. It's just easier to keep track of my high end L4 intervals and just see how they increase over time. FWIW Andy offers that method(tracking your regular repeatable long interval power) as the 2nd best method for estimating FTP behind an actual 40 km tt in competition on a well rested day. And this method isn't backed off by 0.95 or any other factor, basically if you can regularly do 250 watt long intervals(e.g. 20 to 30 minute efforts) during training then just use 250 as your FTP estimate.

Are you trying to hit your best 5 minute and 1 minute numbers(and 5 second?) on the same day as your 20 minute FTP estimate? Most folks struggle with this approach since all of those efforts take mental and physical energy. If you want to do profiling it pays to do the long efforts and short efforts on different and reasonably rested days. Those short efforts take a lot of concentration and desire because they really hurt, at least the 1 minute effort. The 5 minute effort should be ridden at something like 110% - 120% of your current FTP effort and that's not easy.
You've got to use the little options pulldown menu and select "New Zones" or something like that (I'm at work and don't have my copy of WKO+ in front of me). You can't just enter into the grayed out block without selecting from the menu.

Well climbing at least is all about watts per kilogram so you've just saved yourself some serious effort on longer climbs by dropping 2 kg. Take your previous W/Kg estimate at FTP and your current best FTP estimate with your current weight and you should be pleasantly surprised since you've moved both halves of the equation in the right direction. Good job!
You're definitely making progress based on your posts. Ride a smart race and you may surprise yourself. Keep us posted.

-Dave

jsirabella said:

...I really been working at making the 53 chainring feel natural for me during this month but now I can not spin it as fast as I would like in the higher gears....

Stay with the 53 and use whatever rear cog you need to spin the cadence you're after. Don't fall into the trap of thinking a small cog (e.g. 11, 12, 13) necessarily makes you go faster. It's all about gear ratio and your best cadence, you can get the same gear ratio with the 53 and a mid cassette cog or the 39/42 etc. with a real small cog. Your legs don't care which approach you take, but in most crits you want to stay in the big ring and just choose the rear cogs that make sense for the speed of the race, the amount of accordian effect in the corners, etc. If that means spinning a 53:16 or 53:18 combo then that's what you should do. If you're feeling good and the race is fast you might be in the 53:13 or higher but you'll almost certainly spin out a smaller chainring like a 42 or 39 during the fast laps and you don't want to shift the big ring much if at all during a crit if you can help it.

-Dave
P.S. You might see improvements in your 5 minute number if your upcoming race is fast for at least 5 minutes, but most folks don't see their best 1 minute numbers during races. It's possible, but it usually takes a dedicated 1 minute effort or some racing on the track to hit big numbers there. In general don't expect to see changes in the power profiling chart unless you actually go out and attempt personal best efforts at the given durations. You might hit them in general training and racing, but it's not all that likely especially for the one hour and one minute durations.

P.P.S. Don't chose your bike based on expectations of physical contact. Hopefully you won't do a lot of bumping in a cat 5 crit. It might happen and you should stay relaxed and hold your own if it does, but I don't contact other riders in most races.

Dave,

I think you hit the ftp on the nail as I see both my IF and TSS now where they should be of about a 1 and 100 respectively. Today I did ride a bit higher on both but not much higher. Alsi Iwas able to change the effective date and the software worked nicely. Thanks for the tech support.

Today I wanted to do some sprints in this two and half mile ring which has two small hills with alot of cadence changes to try and emulate a crit. Also many gear changes but always in the 53. The other thing I tried because I saw it on video for alot of crits was to ride in the drops. I was never a big fan of it and I remember my coach saying I must experiment with different hand positions so I said let me try it today. It felt a bit uncomfortable for the first half hour but I noticed first an increase in speed immediately and a feeling of less power needed to do it. I than noticed that I felt I was really using a different set of muscles in this position. I felt more buttock and less quad muscles. (??Is that right??) The other thing was once in a groove, speeds I used to feel sometimes uncomfortable, felt like standing still, I was do 30 mph on my way to work without even realizing it or feeling unstable on this long stretch of street.

The only downside was a new set of soreness I never felt before. First my lower back was a little sore but this may also do with the ftp test of yesterday but doubt it and than the pain in the buttock muscles. I never felt neither of these before. I am going to try this position more often into the future.

I did not think as important as I see most riders never going into their drops here. I think now it may be because the bike is not fitted right or they just feel unsure of it.

-JS

daveryanwyoming said:

Stay with the 53 and use whatever rear cog you need to spin the cadence you're after. Don't fall into the trap of thinking a small cog (e.g. 11, 12, 13) necessarily makes you go faster. It's all about gear ratio and your best cadence, you can get the same gear ratio with the 53 and a mid cassette cog or the 39/42 etc. with a real small cog. Your legs don't care which approach you take, but in most crits you want to stay in the big ring and just choose the rear cogs that make sense for the speed of the race, the amount of accordian effect in the corners, etc. If that means spinning a 53:16 or 53:18 combo then that's what you should do. If you're feeling good and the race is fast you might be in the 53:13 or higher but you'll almost certainly spin out a smaller chainring like a 42 or 39 during the fast laps and you don't want to shift the big ring much if at all during a crit if you can help it.

-Dave
P.S. You might see improvements in your 5 minute number if your upcoming race is fast for at least 5 minutes, but most folks don't see their best 1 minute numbers during races. It's possible, but it usually takes a dedicated 1 minute effort or some racing on the track to hit big numbers there. In general don't expect to see changes in the power profiling chart unless you actually go out and attempt personal best efforts at the given durations. You might hit them in general training and racing, but it's not all that likely especially for the one hour and one minute durations.

P.P.S. Don't chose your bike based on expectations of physical contact. Hopefully you won't do a lot of bumping in a cat 5 crit. It might happen and you should stay relaxed and hold your own if it does, but I don't contact other riders in most races.

jsirabella said:

...I did not think as important as I see most riders never going into their drops here. I think now it may be because the bike is not fitted right or they just feel unsure of it....

Riding in the drops is all about aerodynamics, you present a smaller profile to the wind and punch a smaller hole with your upper body. Ride in the drops anytime being aerodynamic is important. If you're sitting comfortably in the middle of the field during a crit you might ride on the brke hoods but if you're struggling to keep up or worse yet out in the wind by yourself(off the front or the back) then the drops are the place to be. As you noticed it takes some getting used to and stresses your muscles a bit differently. That's a good reason to do at least some of your training down in the drops. If you continue to be sore you might need to play with where your hands are, where you sit on the seat, how much you rotate your pelvis or you might need to fiddle with your stem angle, length and stack height to achieve a comfortable position.

On the other hand I occasionally see folks grinding a long climb at 10 mph or less riding down in the drops. There's no good reason to stress your back in that situation and it may interfere with your ability to breathe deeply so only use the drops when it makes sense. IOW when you're fighting air resistance not gravity and need to save power.

Good news on the FTP estimate, but based on what you just posted I suspect it's even a bit higher. I rarely get a IF = 1.0, TSS = 100 ride, that would represent my best one hour time trial on a very good, well rested and highly motivated day. I have those from time to time, but usually have a number pinned to my back when it happens. If you're getting numbers like that in regular training I bet you are still underestimating your FTP.

-Dave

OK...now for the good the bad and the ugly. First it was raining alot here in NY at about 4am and was not sure if Iwas going to go to the race but I said at about 430am, I am up, I am ready lets just go.

Part of the reason I did not want to go was the streets would be wet and I was not sure if I could handle the bike as well. But I said this will be a good experience so lets just do it and see how we fare...

I get there, register quick, down the caffiene drink and a couple of the power gels and do a lap. I can aready feel the road is a little slippery on the down hills when leaning into the curves. Also this one hill always fools me as it is not steep but is long and never pace it correctly. So I said lets watch for both and remember this is a training session to check out the watts.

Anyway the race starts and we hit that hill and suddenly like before I am loosing the pack and remember my coach said attack on the hills to gain position and than save energy on the straight aways and down hills especially down hills let someone else do the work as the wind hits them. So I attack and keep saying in my mind with my ftp at 250 I should not get dropped, stay in the SST/L4. I will not get dropped, 2 x 20 minute intervals...over and over again. As go over the hill I notice by the crest I am back near the pack but they will not let me in. So I pull to my left and start to pass them, I pass one, two, three, four...I than want to get into the middle of the pack but they will still not let me in. I stay on the left side with the pack but no on helping me. We are now about done with the first lap, four more to go.

I than say to myself let me get further ahead, seperation and make a new pack. Second lap begins I start to hit that hill and I pass everyone, I hit the crest of the hill and notice I am by myself. :eek: I figure some are going to chase me, get seperation and we can form a pack for the remaining three laps but no...no one chases me. I am now all by myself not too far away from the motorcycle which I can see in the path now. :eek: I suddenly feel a euphoria...I mean I never in my lifetime thought I could keep up for a lap let alone lead the pack for now on two laps. This is my best ride, hands down, already. The power training is working! I can do this...

Suddenly though I remember the book and it saying the winner never is in the lead until the end...:eek:...(On a side note, I never thought I would think about winning.) I wanted to stay with the pack for just two laps was my goal and check out the power readings. So I say let me look down and see how I am doing on the powertap so I can adjust to stay in the zones I wanted. I look down and all I see are ----- in the watts areas but a speed of about 24-27 pretty much. I am like what is going on here? I keep looking every 10 seconds or so and it keeps going in and out ---- to a watt reading...so I say let me coast and let the pack catch me.

This is where I blow up on lap 3...I let the pack catch me but I forgot we are about to hit a fast descent. As I coast, I pull up on the hoods even higher and as I do that my rear wheel slips out a little. They catch me and start yelling, hey, hey, hey...I should have went into a tuck and kept up but instead between the watts and the yelling I completely lost my concentration and the pack passed me. I did not react fast enough in my mind to go down in the drops and burn a match. I just lost it...

As I try my best to finish the last two laps, I find another guy who blew up and we decide lets help each other. Unfortunately on the last lap, the cat 4 pass us and I as pulling him for most of lap 3 he than hooked on to their group and I got lost and finished lap 4 by myself. I than did a cool down for lap 5.

Someone says not a good day for racing but I look up and slightly embarrased say not too bad for me...😉

The good: I was able to stay with the pack and not just stay with them but lead them for a while....huge for me. I also discovered how important mental toughness is and not to just give up when the pack passes you but hunker down and now it is not over till its over.

The bad: I let the watts reading and the other riders yelling loose my concentration. I need to figure out why the powertap did that?? I need to get better at those longer ascending hills and attack them with better pacing and I need more confidence and control on the descents and react more to what is coming up not where you are. I kept hearing brakes around me and I did not want to touch mine at all but on the descent in the front, I need to get into those drops and react better and no brakes!

The ugly: I did not follow my game plan at all. I went completely into chase mode, did not think about the intervals, saving energy in the pack, never really rode in the drops as I wanted to through most of the race.

In the end I am happy, real happy as I can see the improvement when compared to my first two very ugly races of dropping out in first half lap. This is like a victory beyond my expectations.

Probably the one thing this race gave me more than anything else is...some confidence and hope which is more than I could ever ask for. I guess it is all perspective when compared to that rider who thought he had a bad race.

Anyway back to training and next week, a road race not this crit/road race thing!! 😄...but I will be bck again for this also...yes I will.

On a side note does anyone have a clue why the powertap went whacky?? I am going to buy a new one for my race rear wheel and may be more accurate. When I downloaded the data the graph was loaded with blanks...

-JS

daveryanwyoming said:

Riding in the drops is all about aerodynamics, you present a smaller profile to the wind and punch a smaller hole with your upper body. Ride in the drops anytime being aerodynamic is important. If you're sitting comfortably in the middle of the field during a crit you might ride on the brke hoods but if you're struggling to keep up or worse yet out in the wind by yourself(off the front or the back) then the drops are the place to be. As you noticed it takes some getting used to and stresses your muscles a bit differently. That's a good reason to do at least some of your training down in the drops. If you continue to be sore you might need to play with where your hands are, where you sit on the seat, how much you rotate your pelvis or you might need to fiddle with your stem angle, length and stack height to achieve a comfortable position.

On the other hand I occasionally see folks grinding a long climb at 10 mph or less riding down in the drops. There's no good reason to stress your back in that situation and it may interfere with your ability to breathe deeply so only use the drops when it makes sense. IOW when you're fighting air resistance not gravity and need to save power.

Good news on the FTP estimate, but based on what you just posted I suspect it's even a bit higher. I rarely get a IF = 1.0, TSS = 100 ride, that would represent my best one hour time trial on a very good, well rested and highly motivated day. I have those from time to time, but usually have a number pinned to my back when it happens. If you're getting numbers like that in regular training I bet you are still underestimating your FTP.

-Dave

jsirabella said:

....In the end I am happy, real happy as I can see the improvement when compared to my first two very ugly races of dropping out in first half lap. This is like a victory beyond my expectations....

Great story and great perspective. Racing is a tough game to learn and you're learning real fast. Good on ya for not throwing in the towel when you struggled at the start and even better job of seeing the bright side when the end didn't come out the way you might have hoped.

Pacing in races is tough and getting pack savvy enough to make your own holes and slide into the peloton takes practice. It's pretty rare for folks to cooperatively let you into a nice sheltered place. You've got to be assertive without crossing the line into overly aggressive or dangerous. One trick if you're coming off a pull or are just off the front is to ease up slightly, stay near the center of the field and force them to pass you. As they do you can accellerate a bit and slide onto someone's wheel, hopefully five or six riders back as that gives good shelter but doesn't force you to work too hard. Backing in like this smoothly takes practice but pays off big time.

The other approach is to just hang at the back which isn't the best shelter but keep looking for opportunities to advance. They'll come, sometimes it doesn't seem like you'll get your chance, but it always happens. Maybe they'll speed up for a lap or two then as they slow to catch their collective breaths holes open up. Try to move up one two or three riders at a time and take advantage of those holes when they happen. You've got to stay totally alert during a crit looking for easy opportunities to advance, but stay focused and take advantage of them when they come.

I generally tell more experienced folks to skip the group rides and just train alone for best focus. But if you don't have a lot of pack riding experience it pays to do some group rides to get real comfortable riding in close quarters and to learn how to move subtly around in the pack without being dangerous. If you can try to find some good group rides to get out with maybe once or for now twice a week. It's unlikely they'll work just the training levels you need to focus on but they'll teach you a lot about bike handling and group riding. Don't get sucked in to lots and lots of group rides, they tend to have some real hard sections and feel like great workouts but analyze your power files afterwards and you'll often see lots of easy cruising with little training value punctuated by some really hard anaerobic efforts. That's great once in a while and once you have your aerobic core really tuned up but it's not the best way to raise your FTP and that's the best bang for your buck.

You experienced data dropouts on the PT. Could have been the rain, might be the way your sensor is mounted. If you have the PT Pro model you want the sensor about three inches away from the hub as described by the manual. If you have the SL model you want the sensor about half that distance from the hub. If it was really wet you might have been loosing electrical contact at the mounting cradle. On really wet days I rubber band a zip lock bag around the compter head and cradle to keep it dryer. Some folks recommend a dielectric grease on the electrical contacts to keep water out, I haven't tried or needed that yet. Your batteries might be going out in the hub as well. They're not too hard to change but you need to unscrew the big plastic cover plate on the left side of the rear hub, pull out the electronics board and battery carrier and swap the batteries. I've had to do that twice this season. Unfortunately data dropouts do happen from time to time. It's annoying, but don't let it interfere with your training or racing. It's a good reason to try to tune into how your body feels during a workout and match that to power levels. In the end you need to listen to your body and the power data is a great tool but don't be a slave to it, especially in those situations when it isn't reliable for some reason.

Great job and keep up the good work,
-Dave

When I first started with my coach he had started a team for a bike shop and he got a group of guys together with all varying skill level and experience. In the start of the year we went on group rides but it as not a good experience for the team. It really became a hammerfest too fast and people like me were just getting blown off the pack and get very frustrated. When the pack did slow down to allow others like us to keep up than the other guys would get [censored] so this team never became a team..other than the outfits. Also I heard from the coach that they never learned to properly work together and use each ones speciality instead they all went all out for themselves...but the outfits looked good. Anyway when I did keep with the pack, it was just like you said alot of riding with no effort and every time you pulled it was a bunch of short hard efforts. But you look really cool going that fast...

I just purchased the 250 watt intermediate threshold training which I will start Monday and will keep working at building the aerobic engine as I can see these races will need it...no doubt. I will be getting a powertap for my race wheels and than moving the old one to my winter bike (a cross of cyclocross and road parts).

As I looked at what data it did pick up, it followed the book as it said it would during a race. All my bars in the speed and power level areas moved to the right. When training I am always seeing my biggest time spent in the 250 or so and the speed in the 18-20. This time most of my time (of it recorded) was spent in the 300-320 area and my speed moved up to 22-24.

Well lets get back to training and during these session I will play more with bike handling skills on my own on descents and I hope to find a few packs along the way. But like most of the packs or people I meet, it becomes a hamerfest!!

In the end when the ftp goes up so will my standing in the races...that is how I will look at it.🙂🙂

Thank you for all these posts and support Dave...

-JS

daveryanwyoming said:

Great story and great perspective. Racing is a tough game to learn and you're learning real fast. Good on ya for not throwing in the towel when you struggled at the start and even better job of seeing the bright side when the end didn't come out the way you might have hoped.

Pacing in races is tough and getting pack savvy enough to make your own holes and slide into the peloton takes practice. It's pretty rare for folks to cooperatively let you into a nice sheltered place. You've got to be assertive without crossing the line into overly aggressive or dangerous. One trick if you're coming off a pull or are just off the front is to ease up slightly, stay near the center of the field and force them to pass you. As they do you can accellerate a bit and slide onto someone's wheel, hopefully five or six riders back as that gives good shelter but doesn't force you to work too hard. Backing in like this smoothly takes practice but pays off big time.

The other approach is to just hang at the back which isn't the best shelter but keep looking for opportunities to advance. They'll come, sometimes it doesn't seem like you'll get your chance, but it always happens. Maybe they'll speed up for a lap or two then as they slow to catch their collective breaths holes open up. Try to move up one two or three riders at a time and take advantage of those holes when they happen. You've got to stay totally alert during a crit looking for easy opportunities to advance, but stay focused and take advantage of them when they come.

I generally tell more experienced folks to skip the group rides and just train alone for best focus. But if you don't have a lot of pack riding experience it pays to do some group rides to get real comfortable riding in close quarters and to learn how to move subtly around in the pack without being dangerous. If you can try to find some good group rides to get out with maybe once or for now twice a week. It's unlikely they'll work just the training levels you need to focus on but they'll teach you a lot about bike handling and group riding. Don't get sucked in to lots and lots of group rides, they tend to have some real hard sections and feel like great workouts but analyze your power files afterwards and you'll often see lots of easy cruising with little training value punctuated by some really hard anaerobic efforts. That's great once in a while and once you have your aerobic core really tuned up but it's not the best way to raise your FTP and that's the best bang for your buck.

You experienced data dropouts on the PT. Could have been the rain, might be the way your sensor is mounted. If you have the PT Pro model you want the sensor about three inches away from the hub as described by the manual. If you have the SL model you want the sensor about half that distance from the hub. If it was really wet you might have been loosing electrical contact at the mounting cradle. On really wet days I rubber band a zip lock bag around the compter head and cradle to keep it dryer. Some folks recommend a dielectric grease on the electrical contacts to keep water out, I haven't tried or needed that yet. Your batteries might be going out in the hub as well. They're not too hard to change but you need to unscrew the big plastic cover plate on the left side of the rear hub, pull out the electronics board and battery carrier and swap the batteries. I've had to do that twice this season. Unfortunately data dropouts do happen from time to time. It's annoying, but don't let it interfere with your training or racing. It's a good reason to try to tune into how your body feels during a workout and match that to power levels. In the end you need to listen to your body and the power data is a great tool but don't be a slave to it, especially in those situations when it isn't reliable for some reason.

Great job and keep up the good work,
-Dave