Front downshift probs w/Campy triple

Quoted message said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy

Centaur

Quoted message said:

10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion
cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr,
30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank, and

a

Quoted message said:

115 BB. I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having problems shifting between
the middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25

cog.

Maybe it's a chainline problem. Does your frame have an oversized (>=32mm) seattube? Otherwise
you'll need the 111mm BB instead of 115.5mm. Could be your crank is too far out now causing problems
on the smaller chainrings.

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%KDxb.335662$Fm2.340682@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy

Centaur

Quoted message said:

10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion
cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr,
30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank, and

a

Quoted message said:

115 BB.

I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having problems shifting between the
middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25

cog.

Quoted message said:

Everything else shifts fine, but when I set the fdr according the Campy manual, it refuses to
shift to the smallest ring. If I adjust the inner adjustment screw to allow the fdr to move in
enough to downshift the

chain,

Quoted message said:

half the time it falls off the smallest ring. I've tried to loosen the

cable

Quoted message said:

tension, move the fdr up and down and right/left, even adjust the

b-tension

Quoted message said:

screw on the rdr, but I invariably end up with either the chain not downshifting or falling off
the smallest ring.

Seems to me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong or defective parts, or the
chainline is messed up somehow. I'll probably take it to a local shop as this is beyond my level
of competence, but I thought I'd post this issue here before doing that.

--
Kovie [email hidden]

Yup, it's a 32mm seat tube, and the fdr clamp is a 32mm to match. I finally found a "sweet
spot", but it took a LOT of tweaking, and it doesn't seem right that this would need to be so
precise a setting.

--
Kovie [email hidden]

"Ronald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy

Centaur

Quoted message said:

10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion
cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr,
30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank,

and

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

115 BB. I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having

problems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shifting between the middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25

cog.

Maybe it's a chainline problem. Does your frame have an oversized (>=32mm) seattube? Otherwise
you'll need the 111mm BB instead of 115.5mm. Could be your crank is too far out now causing
problems on the smaller chainrings.

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%KDxb.335662$Fm2.340682@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy

Centaur

Quoted message said:

10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion
cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr,
30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank,

and

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

115 BB.

I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having

problems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shifting between the middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25

cog.

Quoted message said:

Everything else shifts fine, but when I set the fdr according the Campy manual, it refuses to
shift to the smallest ring. If I adjust the inner adjustment screw to allow the fdr to move in
enough to downshift the

chain,

Quoted message said:

half the time it falls off the smallest ring. I've tried to loosen the

cable

Quoted message said:

tension, move the fdr up and down and right/left, even adjust the

b-tension

Quoted message said:

screw on the rdr, but I invariably end up with either the chain not downshifting or falling off
the smallest ring.

Seems to me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

defective parts, or the chainline is messed up somehow. I'll probably

take

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it to a local shop as this is beyond my level of competence, but I

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd post this issue here before doing that.

--
Kovie [email hidden]

kovie-<< 54cm road frame with a Campy Centaur 10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels,
an American Classic 12-25 conversion cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a
long throw rdr, a triple fdr, 30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank, and a 115 BB. >><BR><BR> << Seems to
me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong or defective parts, >><BR><BR>

Try bending the oitside front portion of the front der out a WEE bit, also ensuring that the front
der is only about 1mm from the cage to the big ring, height wise.

If no soap, fit a chainwatcher.

Depending on the size of the seattube, a 111mm BB may work for ya as well...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Kovie said:

Yup, it's a 32mm seat tube, and the fdr clamp is a 32mm to match. I finally found a "sweet spot",
but it took a LOT of tweaking, and it doesn't seem right that this would need to be so precise a
setting.

That's the way they are. Tiny adjustments make a big difference - height and angle is
critical. There are little clip-on devices like the Deda Dog Fang to prevent chain ever
missing the inner ring.

By the way, a 111mm BB can often be used with a 32mm seat tube and Campag triple by filing some
material off the front derailleur body to allow it to shift further inboard. This is what I've do -
results in a better chainline from middle & outer rings to larger sprockets.

~PB

32mm st, which with a triple calls for a 115mm bb, according to Campy.

By bending, do you mean literally bending the metal, or simply angling the fdr cage slightly
askew from dead-on parallel to the chainrings, so that viewed from the top it's at, say, the
12:10 position?

--
Kovie [email hidden]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

kovie-<< 54cm road frame with a Campy Centaur 10spd triple drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels,
an American Classic 12-25 conversion cassette, a Campy 10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn),
a long throw rdr, a triple fdr, 30-42-53 chainrings, 170 crank, and

a

Quoted message said:

115 BB. >><BR><BR> << Seems to me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong

or

Quoted message said:

defective parts, >><BR><BR>

Try bending the oitside front portion of the front der out a WEE bit, also ensuring that the front
der is only about 1mm from the cage to the big

ring,

Quoted message said:

height wise.

If no soap, fit a chainwatcher.

Depending on the size of the seattube, a 111mm BB may work for ya as

well...

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<eRFxb.239927$mZ5.1796308@attbi_s54>...

Quoted message said:

Yup, it's a 32mm seat tube, and the fdr clamp is a 32mm to match. I finally found a "sweet spot",
but it took a LOT of tweaking, and it doesn't seem right that this would need to be so precise a
setting.

I think you missed the point about the 32mm seat tube......it is important to have the longer bb
axle rather than just have the right sized fdr clamp.

Actually, I got the point. The fdr clamp has to be 32mm to match the 32mm seat tube width, and
according to Campy the BB has to be 115 for a triple/32mm seat tube combo. I was just making sure to
be clear that I have the right fdr AND bb, at least according to official specs.

--
Kovie [email hidden]

"rob s" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<eRFxb.239927$mZ5.1796308@attbi_s54>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yup, it's a 32mm seat tube, and the fdr clamp is a 32mm to match. I

finally

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

found a "sweet spot", but it took a LOT of tweaking, and it doesn't seem right that this would
need to be so precise a setting.

I think you missed the point about the 32mm seat tube......it is important to have the longer bb
axle rather than just have the right sized fdr clamp.

Kovie wrote: ........

Quoted message said:

according to Campy the BB has to be 115 for a triple/32mm seat tube combo. I was just making sure
to be clear that I have the right fdr AND bb, at least according to official specs.

The trouble with doing it the "official" way is that chainline is compromised and q-factor is
increased. Just as Campag's derailleur capacity figures are conservative, a 115.5 BB is not always
*actually* necessary with a 32mm seat tube. I know you've already got it now so it's just a point to
bear in mind for the future if you want to try something different.

BTW, a 111 won't necessarily help with the difficult front derailleur setup, in fact it can make it
even more tricky (with a 32mm seat tube)!

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

The trouble with doing it the "official" way is that chainline is compromised and q-factor is
increased. Just as Campag's derailleur capacity figures are conservative, a 115.5 BB is not always
*actually* necessary with a 32mm seat tube.

Yep, I'm running a 111 BB on a 32 st. Doesn't seem to be a problem.

Thanks. Going to the shop right now for a final once-over before the "inaagural" ride so hopefully
they'll be able to figure this out. It's a bit out of my league right now.

--
Kovie [email hidden]

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kovie wrote: ........

Quoted message said:

according to Campy the BB has to be 115 for a triple/32mm seat tube combo. I was just making
sure to be clear that I have the right fdr AND bb, at least according to official specs.

The trouble with doing it the "official" way is that chainline is compromised and q-factor is
increased. Just as Campag's derailleur capacity figures are conservative, a 115.5 BB is not always
*actually* necessary with a 32mm seat tube. I know you've already got it now so it's just a point
to bear in mind for the future if you want to try something different.

BTW, a 111 won't necessarily help with the difficult front derailleur setup, in fact it can make
it even more tricky (with a 32mm seat tube)!

~PB

Kovie said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy Centaur 10spd triple
drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion cassette, a Campy
10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr, 30-42-53 chainrings,
170 crank, and a 115 BB.

I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having problems shifting between the
middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25 cog. Everything else shifts fine, but when I
set the fdr according the Campy manual, it refuses to shift to the smallest ring. If I adjust the
inner adjustment screw to allow the fdr to move in enough to downshift the chain, half the time it
falls off the smallest ring. I've tried to loosen the cable tension, move the fdr up and down and
right/left, even adjust the b-tension screw on the rdr, but I invariably end up with either the
chain not downshifting or falling off the smallest ring.

Triples are fussy. Simple solution: get a chain watcher, those guides that clamp to the downtube to
direct the chain back on to the little ring. Works perfectly.

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong or defective parts, or the
chainline is messed up somehow. I'll probably take it to a local shop as this is beyond my level
of competence, but I thought I'd post this issue here before doing that.

Triples are not an ideal setup, which is one reason more people don't use them. They are prone to
dropping chains, and to skipping the middle ring. The frame you have doesn't help that, since it,
like most, has short chainstays that accentuate chainline problems.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of _`\(,_ | business. (_)/ (_) |

Actually, it's the inner ring that gets skipped. I'll get a chain watcher if there's no choice, but
it seems a bit like adding drop-down training wheels to make cornering easier. I.e. compensating for
the symptom instead of addressing the cause. I find it hard to believe that it's impossible to
design a triple setup that works more smoothly. Then again, perhaps it's my frame. Is it considered
to have true racing dimensions? Would this have been less of a problem with touring frames?

--
Kovie [email hidden]

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kovie said:

I've just built up a bike on a Habanero 54cm road frame with a Campy Centaur 10spd triple
drivetrain. It has Mavic Cosmos wheels, an American Classic 12-25 conversion cassette, a Campy
10spd chain (shortened according to Zinn), a long throw rdr, a triple fdr, 30-42-53 chainrings,
170 crank, and a 115 BB.

I haven't taken it on the road yet, but in the stand it's having

problems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shifting between the middle and smallest chainring, even when on the 25 cog. Everything else
shifts fine, but when I set the fdr according the Campy manual, it refuses to shift to the
smallest ring. If I adjust the inner adjustment screw to allow the fdr to move in enough to
downshift

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chain, half the time it falls off the smallest ring. I've tried to

loosen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the cable tension, move the fdr up and down and right/left, even adjust the b-tension screw on
the rdr, but I invariably end up with either the chain not downshifting or falling off the
smallest ring.

Triples are fussy. Simple solution: get a chain watcher, those guides that clamp to the downtube
to direct the chain back on to the little ring. Works perfectly.

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that either I haven't set this up properly, have the wrong

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

defective parts, or the chainline is messed up somehow. I'll probably

take

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it to a local shop as this is beyond my level of competence, but I

thought

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd post this issue here before doing that.

Triples are not an ideal setup, which is one reason more people don't use them. They are prone to
dropping chains, and to skipping the middle ring. The frame you have doesn't help that, since it,
like most, has short chainstays that accentuate chainline problems.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of _`\(,_ | business. (_)/ (_) |

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<yTWxb.348595$Fm2.352632@attbi_s04>...

Quoted message said:

Actually, it's the inner ring that gets skipped. I'll get a chain watcher if there's no choice,
but it seems a bit like adding drop-down training wheels to make cornering easier. I.e.
compensating for the symptom instead of addressing the cause. I find it hard to believe that it's
impossible to design a triple setup that works more smoothly. Then again, perhaps it's my frame.
Is it considered to have true racing dimensions? Would this have been less of a problem with
touring frames?

If you want to know why at the three major tours that racers avoid Campy triples like the plague,
now you know.

"Kovie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<yTWxb.348595$Fm2.352632@attbi_s04>...

Quoted message said:

Actually, it's the inner ring that gets skipped. I'll get a chain watcher if there's no choice,
but it seems a bit like adding drop-down training wheels to make cornering easier. I.e.
compensating for the symptom instead of addressing the cause.

[snip]

Dear Kovie,

I already have the chain watcher for a mere double front ring, but I got excited when you mentioned
drop-down training wheels for improved cornering, a splendid idea.

To be serious (a struggle), don't some of the fully-faired recumbents have little drop-down wheels
or perhaps side-struts like the old-fashioned airplane tail-skids so that the rider helplessly
enclosed in the fairing can stop without toppling over?

Carl Fogel

Kovie said:

Actually, it's the inner ring that gets skipped. I'll get a chain watcher if there's no choice,
but it seems a bit like adding drop-down training wheels to make cornering easier. I.e.
compensating for the symptom instead of addressing the cause. I find it hard to believe that it's
impossible to design a triple setup that works more smoothly.

It's not impossible (triples can work absolutely perfectly on some mountain bikes for instance,
particularly with friction front shifters) - it just needs to be very carefully setup with your
particular bike and components, as it was with mine. The micro-indexing nature of the front shifter
doesn't help. Fine tuning the cable is necessary as well as all the other usual adjustments - to get
the "clicks" in just the right place.

I don't think you'll strictly need a chain watcher unless inner ring is smaller than 27 or 26T (with
39+ middle) but you could always add one anyway. Yes it is compensating for the syptom instead of
addressing the cause but that doesn't matter if there's virtually no downside.

Quoted message said:

Then again, perhaps it's my frame. Is it considered to have true racing dimensions? Would this
have been less of a problem with touring frames?

A Campag triple works slightly better on my tourer with long stays than one does on my racer, but
that's no reason not to use a triple. In fact, angle of chain with non-crossed over gears (ie. the
normal ones you use, especially the crusing gears from middle ring) is BETTER with a triple than it
is with a double - even on bikes with the shortest chain stays - so ignore the detractors. Triples
are great.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Kovie said:

according to Campy the BB has to be 115 for a triple/32mm seat tube combo. I was just making sure
to be clear that I have the right fdr AND bb, at least according to official specs.

Pete Biggs said:

The trouble with doing it the "official" way is that chainline is compromised and q-factor is
increased. Just as Campag's derailleur capacity figures are conservative, a 115.5 BB is not always
*actually* necessary with a 32mm seat tube. I know you've already got it now so it's just a point
to bear in mind for the future if you want to try something different. BTW, a 111 won't
necessarily help with the difficult front derailleur setup, in fact it can make it even more
tricky (with a 32mm seat tube)!

I'm with Pete. And the 115 risks exceeeding the outer limit capacity of the Campagnolo front
changer. On bikes with a mounting plate ( Kestrel, Trek) the cable anchor hits that plate in high
gear with a 115 but not with a 111.

Sometimes 111, sometimes 115 - many criteria .

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971