star fangled nut alternative

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork ?

Yes, there are a variety of self-expanding anchors made for the
purpose.

Quoted message said:

Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?

As far as I know, none of the commercial solutions are specific to
CFRP steer tubes. Since both CFRP and aluminum steerers run thicker
than normal, any threadless headset expanding anchor that works for
one would work for the other.

Chalo

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:11:38 -0000, Chalo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As far as I know, none of the commercial solutions are specific to
CFRP steer tubes. Since both CFRP and aluminum steerers run thicker
than normal, any threadless headset expanding anchor that works for
one would work for the other.

Actually, I had trouble using an FSA expander stem with an alloy steer
tube. The expander would not would keep turning. I could have likely
put some rubber cement inside the steerer but banging in a starnut
worked fine.

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

In article <dl0Ci.162$Ov2.43@trndny06>,

D T W .../\\... said:

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx

Why does the bolt need to be 7" 1/2 long?
The bolt from the cap to the star nut here is ~ 2".

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article <dl0Ci.162$Ov2.43@trndny06>,

D T W .../\\... said:

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HS707Z00-Azonic+Head+Lock.aspx

Why does the bolt need to be 7" 1/2 long?
The bolt from the cap to the star nut here is ~ 2".

--
Michael Press

The bolt spans the entire length of the fork steerer tube.

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork ?
Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?

Thanks & regards

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

someone said:

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?

Quoted message said:

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is one
of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great leap
forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise bearing
adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws, making the
inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that always
overshoot a thing of the past.

A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches. You must be
able to find a star-nut that fits. These are not something the
bicycle industry invented by the tube ID may be a problem.

When buying a stem for a threadless steertube, I believe the stem
should have two steertube clamp screws and four bar clamp screws to
give redundancy such that failure of one screw cannot separate the
bars from the bicycle probably when control is most critical. Old
quill stems with a single screw failure left one with a loose
handlebar with which one could bring the bicycle to a safe stop.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws while
weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.

(Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?

Wow.

Carl Sundquist said:

Quoted message said:

A well designed stem uses the same hex-key for all three screws
while weighing about 1/100 of the old head adjustment wrenches.

Quoted message said:

(Exaggerated) wrench weight as a criteria for a well designed stem?

Quoted message said:

Wow.

So what do your Campagnolo head wrenches weigh? Mine weigh 457g and
the Allen wrench that replaced them weighs 19g or a ratio of 24:1 plus
a volume that does not readily fit in a touring bag, let alone the
tool side pocket, there where the other small items and tire levers
are stored. That isn't 100:1 but it is in the right magnitude.
Meanwhile Park wrenches are more weighty at 670g (35:1) but no better
for adjusting head bearings.

So what do you find defensible characteristics of ("the well
designed"😉 expanding quill stem? The old ones had an expanding cone
and caused bloated steertubes while the slant wedge ones unscrew from
vertical handlebar forces. For this reason the threadless steertube
was introduced for MTB's where these tilting forces are great enough
to more readily cause failure than with road bars.

I am grateful for this advance, having over the years had to cut off
and bore out the aluminum quill stems with a Dremel tool because they
corroded solid into the steertube in winter while steel ones just
rusted and wobbled even when tight enough to bulge the steertube.

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

someone said:

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?

Quoted message said:

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is one
of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great leap
forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise bearing
adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws, making the
inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that always
overshoot a thing of the past.

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset
for threaded steering tubes. The top bearing race is
threaded on the inside, knurled on the outside and
toothed on the top. It is a finger feel adjustment to
get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its
angular position. There is a one tooth difference
between the top bearing race and the locking ring for a
vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock ring is held down
with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued down
with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made
from durable, heavily nickel and chrome plated steel.
It is easier to set the preload with this head-set than
with thread-less head-sets.

--
Michael Press

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:46:37 -0400, Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming

Edition ® said:

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork ?
Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?

Thanks & regards

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

I didn't have much luck getting the preload correct using that method. But
QBP/Problem Solvers make a couple of parts that make such a setup easy. An
expanding spacer:

http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg

and a locking spacer:

http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg

(You could use a seatpost collar instead of the locking spacer, but they
often have a lip that would need to be filed off.)

USE also makes an expanding spacer called the Ring-Go-Star:

http://www.glorycycles.com/userihe.html

Threadless stems are often knocked for lacking an easy way to adjust the
height of the handlebars, but with this setup, that's not the case. I
found it very helpful when trying out various positions on a new bike.

Gary Young said:

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:46:37 -0400, Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming

Edition ® said:

"Rik O'Shea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
steerer fork ?
Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case ?

Thanks & regards

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?
http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

I didn't have much luck getting the preload correct using that method. But
QBP/Problem Solvers make a couple of parts that make such a setup easy. An
expanding spacer:

http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg

and a locking spacer:

http://tinyurl.com/3exgtg

(You could use a seatpost collar instead of the locking spacer, but they
often have a lip that would need to be filed off.)

USE also makes an expanding spacer called the Ring-Go-Star:

http://www.glorycycles.com/userihe.html

Threadless stems are often knocked for lacking an easy way to adjust the
height of the handlebars, but with this setup, that's not the case. I
found it very helpful when trying out various positions on a new bike.

Come to think of it, you could use just the expanding spacer (as in the
Ring-Go-Star picture) if all you want to do is avoid a star nut and aren't
after height adjustability.

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
> steerer fork?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem screws,
making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat wrenches that
always overshoot a thing of the past.

Quoted message said:

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.

Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
several times the range in which one can allow in bearing adjustment.
That it is easier than with a threadless system is not my experience
nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my area.

Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty of
work.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Michael Press writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be torqued
down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going nowhere. A
beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable, heavily
nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the preload
with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.

Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore?

Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore?

Quoted message said:

Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?

Oh? I see you didn't include why we don't see them anymore, the part
in which I outlined the flaws of that design and the advantages of
dumping quill stems. Nice selective editing. Besides, those head
sets didn't even make it before threadless steertubes.

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>> steerer fork?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.

Quoted message said:

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed and
keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The lock
ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.

Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did the
adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
several times the range in which one can allow in bearing adjustment.
That it is easier than with a threadless system is not my experience
nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my area.

Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to threadless
headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the bearing preload- in a
crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you can't just twist the bars
back into line. The odds are you'll have to get out your hex wrench and
reset the preload. I guess I just don't like one fastening system
holding two adjustments. And I like being able to easily adjust the
stem height (even though I don't change my stem height for years at a
time so that's really not a very rational preference).

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty of
work.

I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with the
stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill freezing
into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount ca 1976) in
which one half of the split for the expander cracked off, which wouldn't
happen with a threadless stem.

Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex Singer.
Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late 70s/early 80s
from some photos I have seen. The French stems were combined with a
standard headset, the current threadless design not being available- I
don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the French and the TR stems
looked very much like modern threadless stems and were sandwiched
between the top race and the locknut as well as clamped on with one or
two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the stem did not contribute to holding
the bearing preload adjustment.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to threadless
headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the bearing preload- in a
crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you can't just twist the bars
back into line. The odds are you'll have to get out your hex wrench and
reset the preload. I guess I just don't like one fastening system
holding two adjustments.

It's actually the stem AND the steerer cap (which screws on to the star
fangled nut) that holds the headset preload. If the stem somehow gets hit
out of alignment, whip out an allen key and re-align the stem - the headset
will still be loaded by the steerer cap. Besides, there's no big deal in
loading the headset.

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Is there an alternative to using a star fangled nut for an alloy
>>> steerer fork?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Can a carbon fork bung be used in this case?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Maybe Sheldon's method of using a seat collar (lip filed down)?

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/584/pages/07.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I suppose there is a reason for not using a star-nut but that is
> one of the features of the threadless steertube that is a great
> leap forward. The hex-drive screw in the cap enables precise
> bearing adjustment that is clamped in place by the two stem
> screws, making the inconvenient octagonal, one-foot long flat
> wrenches that always overshoot a thing of the past.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore? The nut that secured the whole mess had a thread as did
the adjustable race. Thread clearance made that adjustment more as
difficult than the standard locknut that was tightened from snug to
locked on conventional head sets. Thread clearance (backlash) is
several times the range in which one can allow in bearing
adjustment. That it is easier than with a threadless system is not
my experience nor that of mechanics at the two largest shops in my
area.

Quoted message said:

Be that as it may, I have just not been able to warm up to
threadless headsets. I don't like having the stem retain the
bearing preload- in a crash or if the bike gets knocked over, you
can't just twist the bars back into line. The odds are you'll have
to get out your hex wrench and reset the preload. I guess I just
don't like one fastening system holding two adjustments. And I like
being able to easily adjust the stem height (even though I don't
change my stem height for years at a time so that's really not a
very rational preference).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, Stronglight did not address the stem problems I
mentioned. For someone who doesn't use handlebars forcefully, the
quill stem worked but there are enough riders who encountered the
problems I listed to give bicycle shops and frame builders plenty
of work.

Quoted message said:

I must be one of those as I have never encountered problems with the
stem rocking in the head tube, bulging the head tube, the quill
freezing into the steerer, etc. I did have one OEM stem (Viscount
ca 1976) in which one half of the split for the expander cracked
off, which wouldn't happen with a threadless stem.

Consider that the quill stem only expanded at the bottom end and this
allowed the upper end to squirm side to side and front to back at the
top of the steertube/headset. To counter the bulge this caused in the
steel steertube, the wedge version was introduced and proceeded to
squirm enough to unscrew the stem expander bolt. The whole concept
was bad from the start with the stem free to wobble at the end where
the forces are applied.

Quoted message said:

Stems that clamped to the steerer rather than using a quill with an
expander or wedge had been around 60+ years ago and were all but
abandoned by the mid-1950s. Examples were most common on the bikes
built by the French constructeurs such as Rene Herse and Alex
Singer. Tom Ritchey experimented with stems like these in the late
70s/early 80s from some photos I have seen. The French stems were
combined with a standard headset, the current threadless design not
being available- I don't know about Ritchey's stems. Both the
French and the TR stems looked very much like modern threadless
stems and were sandwiched between the top race and the locknut as
well as clamped on with one or two pinch bolts. AFAIK, however, the
stem did not contribute to holding the bearing preload adjustment.

These guys were a minority but recognized the stem problem. When
MTB's came along and had a flood of loosening and breaking stems the
concept returned with a vengeance, fortunately resolving the head
bearing adjustment at the same time, and getting rid of the clumsiest
wrenched on a bicycle to be replaced by an Allen key.

As I said, after installing the threadless fork and appropriate
Ritchey stem, I was repeatedly noticing how solid the bar attachment
was in contrast to the Cinelli quill stem. It took more than 8 months
to get over noticing that. That was more than switching from toe
clips and straps to SPD's.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

> Stronglight designed and built a dead simple headset for threaded
> steering tubes. The top bearing race is threaded on the inside,
> knurled on the outside and toothed on the top. It is a finger feel
> adjustment to get a perfect headset bearing pre-load. A toothed
> and keyed ring settles on the top bearing race to lock its angular
> position. There is a one tooth difference between the top bearing
> race and the locking ring for a vernier adjustment: 41:40. The
> lock ring is held down with a 5/16" nut. The hold down nut can be
> torqued down with any old thing; the top bearing race is going
> nowhere. A beautiful, totally orthogonal system made from durable,
> heavily nickel and chrome plated steel. It is easier to set the
> preload with this head-set than with thread-less head-sets.
Nice but no cigar! If it was such a winner, why don't we see it
anymore?

Why don't we see Mavic MA-2s, or similar rims, anymore, Jobst?

Oh? I see you didn't include why we don't see them anymore, the part
in which I outlined the flaws of that design and the advantages of
dumping quill stems. Nice selective editing. Besides, those head
sets didn't even make it before threadless steertubes.

The contortions you will perform in order to avoid answering a simple
question!!!!

Let's try again, shall we? You contend that the Sronglight design
mentioned by Mr. Press failed to survive in the marketplace because it
lacked merit. So merit is the determining factor? Is so, why are Mavic
MA-2s, and similar rims, no longer available? Were they lacking in
merit?

Do try to answer the question!