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Gone in 60 seconds

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UK and Europe
Published
27 July 2007
Last activity
3 August 2007
Original author
Mark
Posts
30
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  1. Gone in 60 seconds, a documentry about bicycle theft.

    Full programme here (I could double click it to see it full screen):
    <www.itvlocal.com/london/documentaries>

    Features gratifying footage of bike thieves being twatted to the ground,
    though no shootings/burnings.

    As well as the usual advice, it recommends registering your bike with
    www.immobilise.com (bike registration only supported by the Metropolitan
    Police, GLA and TFL).

    Summary is *nothing* stops a professional bike thief (took less than 10
    seconds each to get through a selection of £100 locks) but a couple of
    decent (i.e. expensive D locks) will stop the casual thieves.

  2. "Mark" <pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Gone in 60 seconds, a documentry about bicycle theft.

    Full programme here (I could double click it to see it full screen):
    <www.itvlocal.com/london/documentaries>

    Damn! This is available only to those in the UK:-(
    Graham

  3. Mark said:

    Gone in 60 seconds, a documentry about bicycle theft.

    Full programme here (I could double click it to see it full screen):
    <www.itvlocal.com/london/documentaries>

    Features gratifying footage of bike thieves being twatted to the ground,
    though no shootings/burnings.

    As well as the usual advice, it recommends registering your bike with
    www.immobilise.com (bike registration only supported by the Metropolitan
    Police, GLA and TFL).

    Summary is *nothing* stops a professional bike thief (took less than 10
    seconds each to get through a selection of £100 locks) but a couple of
    decent (i.e. expensive D locks) will stop the casual thieves.

    Summary, police staking out a parked bike waiting for it to get nicked
    is ridiculous. Making this programme is probably the only time they have
    done it.

    For what it is worth I park my bike in the street in central London and
    have done so for years with out it being nicked.

    The major question this programme raised for me was: if the police know
    that stolen bikes are sold at brick lane why don't they go and check the
    bikes being sold there to see if they are stolen.

  4. "Mark" <pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Gone in 60 seconds, a documentry about bicycle theft.

    Full programme here (I could double click it to see it full screen):
    <www.itvlocal.com/london/documentaries>

    Features gratifying footage of bike thieves being twatted to the ground,
    though no shootings/burnings.

    As well as the usual advice, it recommends registering your bike with
    www.immobilise.com (bike registration only supported by the Metropolitan
    Police, GLA and TFL).

    Summary is *nothing* stops a professional bike thief (took less than 10
    seconds each to get through a selection of £100 locks) but a couple of
    decent (i.e. expensive D locks) will stop the casual thieves.

    Thanks for the heads up. Although I saw the doc advertised, I forgot about
    it. Interesting they didn't mention anything about frame locks - all the
    bikes that were stolen were ridden away, a frame lock makes this impossible
    unless that's cut through as well - I don't think that'd be an easy or quick
    thing to do judging by the one on my bike. Of course it doesn't stop them
    picking up the bike and carrying it away or throwing it in a van after
    cutting the cable or chain securing it to the pole/rack etc.

    Having been the only one to 'interrupt' a young pair with bolt cutters one
    of whom was getting ready to cut through a cable securing a bike to a lamp
    post outside a centrally located supermarket a few months ago, I was not
    surprised to see none of those passers by in the doc did anything to try and
    stop what was going on. Plenty of people were watching on when I went up to
    the two outside the supermarket. As well as the cable securing the bike to
    the street furniture, there was also a shackle lock securing it. The main
    instigator claimed to be the owner and said the cable lock was stuck and his
    key wasn't working (there was a key in it). Since the shackle didn't have a
    key in it, I asked him if he could remove that and he promptly pulled out a
    key from his pocket and unlocked that. If I had a camera on my phone I think
    I would have discreetly taken their photos. I told the security guy inside
    the supermarket who wasn't interested but said the area was covered by their
    CCTV. I reported this to the local Police but they said nothing had been
    reported stolen from that area and as it didn't appear to be a new or
    valuable looking bike I guess the story must have been true.... Either that
    or they were researching behaviour, perhaps as students in a relevant
    discipline or were undercover journalists.

    What would the other cycling enthusiasts here do in such a situation? The
    official recommendation of the police operator was not to get involved and
    just phone the police straight away but as there were none around at the
    time I think that would have been pretty pointless.

  5. Paul Murphy said:

    Interesting they didn't mention anything about frame locks - all the
    bikes that were stolen were ridden away, a frame lock makes this impossible
    unless that's cut through as well - I don't think that'd be an easy or quick
    thing to do judging by the one on my bike.

    If by "frame lock" you mean the type that you might find on Dutch bikes
    such as this:
    http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/imagebank/fietsen/2007_impala_blauw_h_3_popup.jpg
    then afaik they are as easy to cut as any other lock, only the remnants
    will remain visible on the bike unless the lock is completely removed
    later (which is also relatively easy to do with an angle grinder).

    Quoted message said:

    Of course it doesn't stop them
    picking up the bike and carrying it away or throwing it in a van after
    cutting the cable or chain securing it to the pole/rack etc.

    Indeed, but I'd guess that van theft is considerably less common than
    the junkie with a bolt cutter scenario.

    From the stories that I hear I've all but given up on locks to be
    effective against bikes being stolen by non casual thieves. I'd guess
    that what would probably work is to use something that is virtually
    unsellable. Painting all parts of a bike bright yellow with a brush by
    splattering the paint on in a really ugly way would probably do that.

    You'd look like a muppet riding it, but al least you wouldn't be walking
    and having to buy another bike on a regular basis.

    Quoted message said:

    The main
    instigator claimed to be the owner and said the cable lock was stuck and his
    key wasn't working (there was a key in it). Since the shackle didn't have a
    key in it, I asked him if he could remove that and he promptly pulled out a
    key from his pocket and unlocked that.

    That would convince me that they were the legitimate owner.

    Quoted message said:

    If I had a camera on my phone I think
    I would have discreetly taken their photos. I told the security guy inside
    the supermarket who wasn't interested but said the area was covered by their
    CCTV. I reported this to the local Police but they said nothing had been
    reported stolen from that area

    A bit over the top if they had the keys.

    Quoted message said:

    What would the other cycling enthusiasts here do in such a situation? The
    official recommendation of the police operator was not to get involved and
    just phone the police straight away but as there were none around at the
    time I think that would have been pretty pointless.

    I'd have little reservation about challenging someone who'm I thought
    was attempting to steal a bicycle, although I wouldn't get too close in
    case they pull a knife or such. IMO if you leave a would be thief an
    easy way out they will take it. I wouldn't try to make a "citizen's
    arrest" or anything like that as that could be very dangerous.

    Phoning the Police would serve no purpose IMO, any thief would be long
    gone (with the bike) if the Police bother to show up at all

    --
    Membrane

  6. On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:39:11 +0100, Membrane <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    From the stories that I hear I've all but given up on locks to be
    effective against bikes being stolen by non casual thieves. I'd guess
    that what would probably work is to use something that is virtually
    unsellable. Painting all parts of a bike bright yellow with a brush by
    splattering the paint on in a really ugly way would probably do that.

    Aye, we did something similar some years ago, when my wife would cycle
    to MK railway station. It's probably not changed much, but ten years
    ago anything vaguely MTB-shaped would be almost guaranteed to go
    walkies even with the best of locks im use. After my wife's 'Al
    Carter'[1] was nicked we got her a slightly-battered Peugeot lady's
    tourer, which although perfectly serviceable and not bad-looking was
    as safe as you could possibly get.

    [1] Lovely bike, it was, with high-polished Ally frame. I just came
    across the owner's manual in my desk drawer, a few days ago, oddly
    enough.

    --
    Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

  7. "Membrane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    Interesting they didn't mention anything about frame locks - all the
    bikes that were stolen were ridden away, a frame lock makes this
    impossible
    unless that's cut through as well - I don't think that'd be an easy or
    quick
    thing to do judging by the one on my bike.

    If by "frame lock" you mean the type that you might find on Dutch bikes
    such as this:
    http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/imagebank/fietsen/2007_impala_blauw_h_3_popup.jpg

    Thats the sort, Axa makes lots of them but some bikes sold here (including
    my Giant Twist) now come with them, a good idea in my view.

    Quoted message said:

    then afaik they are as easy to cut as any other lock, only the remnants
    will remain visible on the bike unless the lock is completely removed
    later (which is also relatively easy to do with an angle grinder).

    The good thing is that the bit that goes between the spokes is relatively
    inaccessible from the side and I suspect getting a good bite on it with
    boltcutters wouldn't be that easy, let alone being able to exert the
    required force at that angle. All supposition though and I've never seen or
    heard of anyone attempting to break them.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Of course it doesn't stop them
    picking up the bike and carrying it away or throwing it in a van after
    cutting the cable or chain securing it to the pole/rack etc.

    Indeed, but I'd guess that van theft is considerably less common than
    the junkie with a bolt cutter scenario.

    From the stories that I hear I've all but given up on locks to be
    effective against bikes being stolen by non casual thieves. I'd guess
    that what would probably work is to use something that is virtually
    unsellable. Painting all parts of a bike bright yellow with a brush by
    splattering the paint on in a really ugly way would probably do that.

    I'm weary of leaving my bike anywhere public for any length of time, even
    with 2 cable locks and a frame lock unless I can keep my eye on it. When
    your usual bike is electric assist, there isn't much choice for a hack. Some
    might say no-one would want one of those heavy, lazyness inducing machines
    etc ;-) but in reality they're actually pretty valuable and a prime target
    for bike thieves.

    Quoted message said:

    You'd look like a muppet riding it, but al least you wouldn't be walking
    and having to buy another bike on a regular basis.

    Quoted message said:

    The main
    instigator claimed to be the owner and said the cable lock was stuck and
    his
    key wasn't working (there was a key in it). Since the shackle didn't have
    a
    key in it, I asked him if he could remove that and he promptly pulled out
    a
    key from his pocket and unlocked that.

    That would convince me that they were the legitimate owner.

    It did pretty much for me too but then a bit later I thought whats to stop
    them bringing along their own shackle lock and attaching it in preparation,
    crafty I know but I could imagine it happens in order to throw people off.

  8. Paul Murphy said:

    The good thing is that the bit that goes between the spokes is relatively
    inaccessible from the side

    On my Dutch bike it is perfectly accessible, all you need to do is cut
    it from the side, no need to get at the bit that goes through the wheel,
    it will simply drop out.

    Quoted message said:

    a bit later I thought whats to stop
    them bringing along their own shackle lock and attaching it in preparation,

    You've been reading too many murder mysteries :-)

    --
    Membrane

  9. Membrane said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    The main
    instigator claimed to be the owner and said the cable lock was stuck and his
    key wasn't working (there was a key in it). Since the shackle didn't have a
    key in it, I asked him if he could remove that and he promptly pulled out a
    key from his pocket and unlocked that.

    That would convince me that they were the legitimate owner.

    It wouldn't convince me. In this scenario, the first thing the thief
    does is to attch his own D-lock to the bike. Then he starts to cut the
    real owner's lock. If anyone challenges him, he can open the other
    lock easily as he has the key!

    TL

  10. Nick <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    The major question this programme raised for me was: if the police know
    that stolen bikes are sold at brick lane why don't they go and check the
    bikes being sold there to see if they are stolen.

    I suspect the market might be paying backhanders to prevent investigation...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  11. What I get from the program is that it is no more worth spending 100
    quid on a lock than it is spending a few tens. They are all readily
    susceptible to breakage.

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    ...d

  12. David Martin said:

    What I get from the program is that it is no more worth spending 100
    quid on a lock than it is spending a few tens. They are all readily
    susceptible to breakage.

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    Though note that that's "undesirable to thieves", not necessarily a pile
    of [censored]. The 8 Freight is a fair example of a bike with a degree of
    inbuilt security. It's not obvious how easy it will be to make a quick
    getaway on it, it's a bit big and unwieldy to bundle into the back of a
    car, it sticks out like a sore thumb, the market for "a guy in the pub"
    is probably going to be relatively limited, it would be easy to spot and
    trace, it's not obviously going to be Great Fun for a joyride. Compare
    and contrast to a nice MTB with "Cannondale" decals...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  13. Quoted message said:

    What I get from the program is that it is no more worth spending 100
    quid on a lock than it is spending a few tens. They are all readily
    susceptible to breakage.

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    Kryptonite's take on it is here:
    <http://unbreakable-bonds.blogspot.com>

    ======
    starts
    ======

    Kryptonite sent a comment to Alex Nott, Producer of tonight's ITV show
    "Gone in 60 Seconds – The Bike Crime Wave" last week. But, we wanted to
    talk to our customers because we are confident in our products (we use
    them every day) and want our customers to feel confident as well.

    We weren't offered the opportunity to participate in, attend or view an
    unedited version of this "test". What we did see was a clearly edited
    video performed by a competitor whose products, we are told, are not used
    in this show.

    Kryptonite takes the security of its customers' property very seriously
    and does not condone or support any form of media that publicly educates
    or encourages criminal or other illegal activity on any brand of lock. We
    also don't condone or support product demonstrations that do not fully
    educate the viewer on the types of tools used and the conditions in which
    such tools would be used.

    This televised demonstration leads viewers to believe that 42-inch bolt
    cutters are common tools used by thieves. They are not. The 42-inch bolt
    cutters used in the show are large in size, expensive to purchase and
    difficult to obtain (according to our research).

    Please note that the price of this 42 inch bolt cutter, like the one used
    in the show, retails for approximately £291-360 ($600-742 U.S. Dollars),
    and replacement jaws retail for approximately £100.00 ($206 U.S. Dollar.
    [BikeBiz note: it's possible to Google for cheap 42-inch bolt cutters but
    these aren't the ones used in the ITV show].

    Unfortunately, there will always be people who think it is necessary to
    publicize ways to perform criminal or other illegal activity. We
    recognize that and are committed to constantly evaluating technologies
    and methods for providing products that guard against these most common
    methods.

    The methods described on this show are not common methods currently in
    use in the UK or elsewhere. The New York Fahgettaboudit chain is covered
    by Kryptonite's anti-theft protection offer. In the last two years, in
    the UK, there have been no claims of property being stolen that was
    secured with a New York Fahgettaboudit chain. Zero.

    Our high end security products, including the New York Fahgettaboudit
    chain, meet or exceed industry testing standards and are also tested by
    internal and external professionals in a variety of ways to guard against
    methods commonly and uncommonly used by thieves. Kryptonite has
    manufactured and sold high quality products for 35 years and has been
    testing the products for just as long. As a matter of fact, Kryptonite
    team members who test the products have an impressive combined testing
    knowledge of 46 years.

    Our internal tests involve a variety of tools used by thieves, such as
    bolt cutters (including 42 inch bolt cutters), hack saws, hammers, pry
    bars, grinders, hydraulic devices and a host of other common and uncommon
    methods. The products are tested to the point of failure in order to
    understand the limitations and the environments for which the products
    are best suited. If a new method is heard of by Kryptonite, the products
    will be retested against that method as well.

    Despite the internal testing done by Kryptonite employees, we do not ask
    that our current or future customers just take our word for it. We rely
    on independent, third party testing to expertly attack the chains and
    locks. We submit our high end locks to industry respected testing
    agencies such as Sold Secure (UK), ART (NL), VdS (DE), N.F. (FRA), Classe
    SRA (FRA) and SSF (Sweden). In total, Kryptonite has received over 70
    approvals from these agencies for a variety of its products. The New York
    Fahgettaboudit chain received the highest ratings of Gold and 4+ from
    both Sold Secure and ART.

    Another highly respected third party tester, Cycling Plus Magazine,
    tested the New York Fahgettaboudit chain in its annual lock test this
    spring and it fared very well over the other chains submitted, receiving
    a coveted "recommend." The chain held up over one minute to power tools
    after it was already attacked for 5 minutes with more common street
    tools, such as bolt cutters.

    We understand and respect the fact that people are passionate about the
    brand of lock they choose. We are not interested in a back and forth with
    our competitors or their supporters; we've said our peace and will leave
    it at that. If you have a question or concern about one of your own
    Kryptonite locks, please do not hesitate to contact our customer service
    at [email hidden]

    We offer a broad range of products so customers can select products to
    create security levels specific to their unique needs and environments.
    The products are and will be continuously tested, both internally and
    externally, to provide customers with products that will protect their
    property in a variety of environments and give them general peace of
    mind.

    Having said all that, as we go forward on this blog, we'd like to ask
    that everyone refer to our very first post in the blogosphere.

    It requests , "that people be respectful with their comments.
    Constructive criticism is welcome, slander is not. Profanity is not.
    Basically, please don't say something here that you wouldn't say in one
    of our living rooms. We would appreciate that." This is a common request
    in the blogosphere and we don't find it unreasonable. We will ask again
    that everyone please keep that in mind.

    Thanks for your time. Now we suggest you turn off the computer and go out
    for a nice ride. You can feel confident that Kryptonite will continue to
    meet the challenges of the street.

    ====
    ends
    ====

  14. Ride a fixie.

    I've had fun twice shouting OI! to lags who tried to nick it. Both times I ran after them and shouted, first one turned around and stopped pedalling (sp?). I walked over and got my bike back. Second one sprinted off then tried coasting round a corner. I walked over and got my bike back.

    Also fixies don't have much resale value to general market goers.

    P

    David Martin said:

    What I get from the program is that it is no more worth spending 100
    quid on a lock than it is spending a few tens. They are all readily
    susceptible to breakage.

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    ...d

  15. Peter Clinch said:
    David Martin said:

    What I get from the program is that it is no more worth spending 100
    quid on a lock than it is spending a few tens. They are all readily
    susceptible to breakage.

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    Though note that that's "undesirable to thieves", not necessarily a pile
    of [censored]. The 8 Freight is a fair example of a bike with a degree of
    inbuilt security. It's not obvious how easy it will be to make a quick
    getaway on it, it's a bit big and unwieldy to bundle into the back of a
    car, it sticks out like a sore thumb, the market for "a guy in the pub"
    is probably going to be relatively limited, it would be easy to spot and
    trace, it's not obviously going to be Great Fun for a joyride. Compare
    and contrast to a nice MTB with "Cannondale" decals...

    Pete.

    yup that i hope is what keeps my old bike from going any where, it's
    fairly grubby while it looks like it's being used it doesn't look
    terribly valuble, i'd guess it's 2nd hand market would be lucky to get
    £100 if at all.

    roger
    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  16. "The Luggage" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Membrane said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    The main
    instigator claimed to be the owner and said the cable lock was stuck and
    his
    key wasn't working (there was a key in it). Since the shackle didn't
    have a
    key in it, I asked him if he could remove that and he promptly pulled
    out a
    key from his pocket and unlocked that.

    That would convince me that they were the legitimate owner.

    It wouldn't convince me. In this scenario, the first thing the thief
    does is to attch his own D-lock to the bike. Then he starts to cut the
    real owner's lock. If anyone challenges him, he can open the other
    lock easily as he has the key!

    TL

    I realised this just after the event as posted a day before you posted the
    above. Its useful for people to be aware what may happen so if they come
    across such a situation they can be prepared. I really would like to know
    examples about the robustness (or otherwise) of frame locks such as the Axa
    SL7. I suspect they're less easy to quickly break than other more accessible
    security devices such as chains and cables. Has anyone even heard of a case
    (just one is fine) where one of these things was thwarted and then the thief
    got on and rode the bike away... I really think they are a good idea for
    deterring the opportunistic or casual ride away thief and cant believe they
    never mentioned them in that doc.

  17. "Membrane" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Murphy said:

    The good thing is that the bit that goes between the spokes is relatively
    inaccessible from the side

    On my Dutch bike it is perfectly accessible, all you need to do is cut
    it from the side, no need to get at the bit that goes through the wheel,
    it will simply drop out.

    This wouldn't be easy using bolt cutters with my SL7 on the Twist as the
    body of the lock is right beside the frame all the way up the sides except
    for at the top and there it's inaccessible due to other bits around it such
    as the rack and battery. Although it could be done carefully with some sort
    of angle grinder, that would take time unless a person was reckless with
    regard to damaging the frame as well - and then it wouldn't be saleable. I
    found some reviews here and it appears I'm not the only one who thinks
    they're a very good idea:
    http://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk/public/index.php/product/locks/otherlocks/LKSL7.html

  18. Paul Murphy said:
    Quoted message said:

    On my Dutch bike it is perfectly accessible, all you need to do is cut
    it from the side, no need to get at the bit that goes through the wheel,
    it will simply drop out.

    This wouldn't be easy using bolt cutters with my SL7 on the Twist as the
    body of the lock is right beside the frame all the way up the sides except
    for at the top and there it's inaccessible due to other bits around it such
    as the rack and battery. Although it could be done carefully with some sort
    of angle grinder, that would take time unless a person was reckless with
    regard to damaging the frame as well - and then it wouldn't be saleable. I
    found some reviews here and it appears I'm not the only one who thinks
    they're a very good idea:
    http://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk/public/index.php/product/locks/otherlocks/LKSL7.html

    That looks the same construction as the one on my bike (mine is an AXA
    SL9). On my bike the sides of the lock protrude far beyond the seat
    stays, thus it should be easy to cut with a bolt cutter (although I've
    no experience or knowledge of the actual practicality of such).

    --
    Membrane

  19. David Martin said:

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    That's the approach I've taken, it's worked for me so far - to be more
    precise, I think the trick is to have a bike that rides better than
    its appearance would suggest.

    Has anyone ever seen a bike with a steering lock? My dad had an old
    one, probably dated from the 50s. It was at the bottom of the head
    tube, and an integral part of the frame. It seemed useless to me, as I
    locked up my bike with my puny chain, but now it seems to offer some
    advantages:

    1) it made the bike completely unrideable;

    2) it was fairly difficult to wheel anywhere, you'd be constantly
    dragging the front round to change direction; if you could lock the
    wheel at 90 degrees, it would be really difficult to move (though
    antisocial in most bike racks);

    3) being in the frame, brute force attacks would cause serious damage,
    probably to the forks as well as the frame;

    4) the bike could obviously be loaded into a van for removal to drill
    the lock out, but it would be an unappealing buy with the lock
    missing, as it would so obviously be stolen. If supply of replacement
    locks could be controlled, it would make life fairly tough for the
    thieves.

    You'd probably still want to lock the bike to something as well (my
    dad didn't) but it might be enough to make the theives move on to the
    next bike in the rack.

    Rob

  20. [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:
    David Martin said:

    SO a lock buys you time from opportunist theives. Trick must be to
    have an undesirable bike.

    Quoted message said:

    That's the approach I've taken, it's worked for me so far - to be more
    precise, I think the trick is to have a bike that rides better than
    its appearance would suggest.

    Quoted message said:

    Has anyone ever seen a bike with a steering lock? My dad had an old
    one, probably dated from the 50s. It was at the bottom of the head
    tube, and an integral part of the frame. It seemed useless to me, as I
    locked up my bike with my puny chain, but now it seems to offer some
    advantages:

    Yes, usually Raleigh 'Superbe' IIRC.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

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