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components manufacturing methods

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Cycling Equipment
Published
27 July 2007
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30 July 2007
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bicycle_disciple
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  1. I speculate this topic may have been beaten to death. I'm lazy to go
    over the innumerable archives of RBT, so let me shoot out the
    question.

    What manufacturing methods are being used in high end components these
    days and how do each one affect strength, failure due to fatigue,
    stiffness etc? I wonder if cranksets are cast at all in these days
    where cnc machining and so on is rampant technology to cut costs. Most
    cranksets I read about (Stronglight, Zero Gravity,FSA) talk about CNC
    machining and I've also heard some folks who think these methods don't
    produce enough strength and durability as forging or casting and so
    on. These days theres carbon every here and there, especially in
    carbon cranksets, so what kind of manufacturing is done here to make
    these parts? I'm not only looking for an answer to high end components
    which could be mostly made in-house, but also the ones that people
    with an average budget ride everyday, and whose parts are outsourced
    to Taiwan, China etc...

    -BD

  2. Good cranks are always forged, but then there is CNC finishing work
    done on the forged blanks...threading, milling the spider lands, etc.

    Some Cranks have hollow construction, generally with a forged u-
    section outer part, and a flat section welded to the backside.

    Sheldon "Grain Matters" Brown
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Wherever there is sufficient space for a motor vehicle |
    | there must be sufficient space for a bicycle, |
    | because the bicycle is smaller. Is that not obviously so? |
    | -- John Forester |
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+

    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  3. Sheldon Brown said:

    Good cranks are always forged, but then there is CNC finishing work
    done on the forged blanks...threading, milling the spider lands, etc.

    Some Cranks have hollow construction, generally with a forged u-
    section outer part, and a flat section welded to the backside.

    Sheldon "Grain Matters" Brown
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Wherever there is sufficient space for a motor vehicle |
    | there must be sufficient space for a bicycle, |
    | because the bicycle is smaller. Is that not obviously so? |
    | -- John Forester |
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+

    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwidehttp://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

    any idea what size press (tonnage) they would use for cranks ?

  4. bicycle_disciple said:

    I speculate this topic may have been beaten to death. I'm lazy to go
    over the innumerable archives of RBT, so let me shoot out the
    question.

    What manufacturing methods are being used in high end components these
    days and how do each one affect strength, failure due to fatigue,
    stiffness etc? I wonder if cranksets are cast at all in these days
    where cnc machining and so on is rampant technology to cut costs. Most
    cranksets I read about (Stronglight, Zero Gravity,FSA) talk about CNC
    machining and I've also heard some folks who think these methods don't
    produce enough strength and durability as forging or casting and so
    on. These days theres carbon every here and there, especially in
    carbon cranksets, so what kind of manufacturing is done here to make
    these parts? I'm not only looking for an answer to high end components
    which could be mostly made in-house, but also the ones that people
    with an average budget ride everyday, and whose parts are outsourced
    to Taiwan, China etc...

    -BD

    you seem to be confused about how cnc is different from casting or
    forging. cnc is simply a machining process that's used for finishing,
    not for basic form creation like casting or forging.

    briefly, forgings are much better in fatigue than castings. a subset of
    casting is thixoforming, which is better than straight casting, but
    still not as good as forging. thixoforming is very fashionable with
    certain manufacturers like avid.

    for fatigue, high quality carbon fiber is best, followed by cold
    forging, then hot forging, then thixoforming, with casting a distant
    runner-up. carbon that is basically a veneer on top of an aluminum
    substrate is debatable.

  5. Quoted message said:
    Sheldon Brown said:

    Good cranks are always forged, but then there is CNC finishing work
    done on the forged blanks...threading, milling the spider lands, etc.

    Some Cranks have hollow construction, generally with a forged u-
    section outer part, and a flat section welded to the backside.

    Sheldon "Grain Matters" Brown
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Wherever there is sufficient space for a motor vehicle |
    | there must be sufficient space for a bicycle, |
    | because the bicycle is smaller. Is that not obviously so? |
    | -- John Forester |
    +--------------------------------------------------------------+

    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwidehttp://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

    any idea what size press (tonnage) they would use for cranks ?

    probably more than 1, less than 10. depends [among other things] on the
    temperature, size, and degree of forming sought on each strike. most
    producers suck it to see.

  6. bicycle_disciple said:


    What manufacturing methods are being used in high end components these
    days and how do each one affect strength, failure due to fatigue,
    stiffness etc?

    There are more factors than manufacturing method that dictate the
    properties of a part.

    Know first of all that stiffness is a product of basic material type
    and part dimensions, not manufacturing technique. A cast stem made
    from weak, soft aluminum would be as stiff as a cold-forged and
    machined stem made from 7075-T6 alloy, if they both had the same
    shape, size, and weight. So for stiffness, you are concerned about
    gross categories of material (e.g. steel vs. titanium vs. aluminum vs.
    magnesium), part weight, and part form. It makes no difference how
    the part is made.

    For the purposes of the discussion, I am going to exclude frames,
    forks, rims, etc-- things that can be considered structures unto
    themselves. Such parts have more in common with each other than they
    do with components that function as mechanisms.

    The highest quality components these days are either cold forged from
    metal or laid up and cured from carbon/epoxy. (I'm not going to talk
    about carbon parts because I think they're goofy.) Forging is
    basically smashing material into the desired shape between tools or
    forms made of harder stuff. It makes the metal stronger and reduces
    the size and effect of internal flaws, as well as being a material-
    efficient way of making parts. The tradeoff is that the dies (shaped
    tools) for forging are very expensive, and the finish quality of parts
    in as-forged condition can be pretty crude.

    Forging can be done on "cold" metal (in the same microcrystalline
    state as at room temperature), which causes work hardening--
    strengthening-- of the metal itself. It can also be done hot, with
    metal that is softened and easier to smash into shape. Hot forged
    parts have the structural advantages of "grain" that follows the shape
    of the part and diminished internal flaws, but the metal will be in a
    relatively soft state after the part cools. Thus it will be both
    weaker and more ductile (bendable; the opposite of brittle) in
    comparison to a cold forged part made from the same alloy. You can't
    usually tell just by looking whether a forged part was cold- or hot-
    forged.

    The most common sort of stem I see on new bikes is forged from
    aluminum around a mandrel (making the finished product hollow):

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/stem-dimension-thless-sm4523.jpg

    Most aluminum brake arms, seatpost heads, crank arms, pedal bodies,
    and hub shells on decent quality bikes are also forged.

    Casting allows the the same sorts of complex shapes as forging, with
    even more detail and finer surface finish. (Castings can also be
    incredibly crude and poorly finished.) Cast metals tend to be softer
    and weaker than cold-forged metals, but much more brittle than hot-
    forged metals. They also contain the largest flaws from which cracks
    can propagate. Casting dies are very expensive, but the incremental
    unit cost of cast parts is tiny compared to most other processes. As
    a result, cast parts are common on cheap pedestrian bikes which are to
    be sold in great numbers-- think Huffies and other bicycle-shaped
    objects.

    Machining is the term for cutting material away from a casting,
    forging, or blank of raw metal. Any bike part with threads for screws
    in it has been machined to some degree. Machining parts from plain
    bar stock is one of the most economical ways to make small numbers of
    a part, but one of the most expensive ways to mass-produce parts. It
    produces a huge amount of swarf (chips) which must be recycled or
    discarded.

    Machining includes milling (which would be used to make a crank or
    fancy chainring) and turning (which would be used to make a hub shell
    or pedal spindle), as well as other processes like drilling, tapping
    (making threads), broaching (making splines and keyways), flycutting,
    and surface grinding. CNC stands for "computer numeric control",
    meaning the machine runs under the command of a computer which has
    been programmed with toolpaths by its operator. CNC machining allows
    shapes and finish quality which were not feasible when the machines
    were controlled exclusively by hand cranks and levers.

    It's common these days for forgings to be machined on all exposed
    surfaces. This accomplishes two primary things: It brings the part
    to a very uniform shape and finish, and it makes the part shiny and
    attractive to the consumer without the need for much more surface
    treatment.

    Stamping is another process that can be seen in some metal bike
    parts. Stamping uses punches and dies to strike flat forms from metal
    sheet or plate, sometimes bashing curved surfaces into the parts in
    the same process or a subsequent step. Cheap steel single-pivot
    calipers are probably the best-known stampings used in bikes, though
    there are plenty of other examples. Seat guts are stamped, as are
    some brake levers. Steel chainrings, sprockets, derailleurs, and hubs
    are almost always stamped. Lots of steel stems are made by stamping
    or a combination of stamping and welding. Pedal cages are stamped.

    The benefit of stamping is entirely in its low manufacturing cost.
    Parts made this way usually lack rigidity for their weight, owing to
    their thin, flattened and mostly open sections.

    Welding is used for some parts, like stems and a few cranks and
    seatposts. Welding from sections of tube results in a naturally stiff
    and efficient structure with all its mass close to the part surface,
    where the material can best resist stresses. The drawbacks are
    relatively high labor cost and significant variations in uniformity
    and quality control. Almost all welded parts will need some amount of
    machining before and after welding.

    I may have left out some noteworthy processes, but at the moment I
    think that's about all the common metalworking techniques used in the
    manufacturing of bike parts.

    Chalo

  7. jim beam said:


    you seem to be confused about how cnc is different from casting or
    forging. cnc is simply a machining process that's used for finishing,
    not for basic form creation like casting or forging.

    That's not exactly true. The CNC machined parts that brought this
    technique into the bike world were all machined from billet, and many
    still are. Paul Components, White Industries, Ringlé, Avid, Grafton,
    IRD, Kooka, Cook Bros, and others machined parts from plain bar
    stock.

    The reasons that many of them no longer do so has as much to do with
    cost of production as it does with the superiority of forgings. Many
    of the aforementioned manufacturers used 7075-T6 alloy, for example,
    which is much stronger than the aluminum alloys used in the vast
    majority of forged parts.

    Chalo

  8. the road bike frame i ride is 20 years old. Slowly over time and
    replacement, all parts were upgraded to contemporary Shimano Deore and
    now resin MTB grips.
    I accumulated and used three salvedged sets of 20 year old SunTour and
    generic Tiwanese parts sharing a common end-the parts cracked.
    The contemporary Deore parts show no signs of cracking or metal
    fatigue but slowly, progressively wear out.
    Is that difference alloy or forged vs cast?

  9. Chalo said:
    jim beam said:

    you seem to be confused about how cnc is different from casting or
    forging. cnc is simply a machining process that's used for finishing,
    not for basic form creation like casting or forging.

    That's not exactly true.

    i know - i'm simplifying for the context of the op's question.

    Quoted message said:

    The CNC machined parts that brought this
    technique into the bike world were all machined from billet, and many
    still are. Paul Components, White Industries, Ringl�, Avid, Grafton,
    IRD, Kooka, Cook Bros, and others machined parts from plain bar
    stock.

    right - because for a small production run, it's cheaper than setting up
    a forge and /then/ machining. but quality product when machining from
    billet requires material to be much more expensive than would otherwise
    be necessary. and in volume, unit costs are much higher.

    Quoted message said:


    The reasons that many of them no longer do so has as much to do with
    cost of production as it does with the superiority of forgings. Many
    of the aforementioned manufacturers used 7075-T6 alloy, for example,
    which is much stronger than the aluminum alloys used in the vast
    majority of forged parts.

    indeed. see above.

  10. Chalo said:
    bicycle_disciple said:

    What manufacturing methods are being used in high end components these
    days and how do each one affect strength, failure due to fatigue,
    stiffness etc?

    There are more factors than manufacturing method that dictate the
    properties of a part.

    Know first of all that stiffness is a product of basic material type
    and part dimensions, not manufacturing technique. A cast stem made
    from weak, soft aluminum would be as stiff as a cold-forged and
    machined stem made from 7075-T6 alloy, if they both had the same
    shape, size, and weight. So for stiffness, you are concerned about
    gross categories of material (e.g. steel vs. titanium vs. aluminum vs.
    magnesium), part weight, and part form. It makes no difference how
    the part is made.

    For the purposes of the discussion, I am going to exclude frames,
    forks, rims, etc-- things that can be considered structures unto
    themselves. Such parts have more in common with each other than they
    do with components that function as mechanisms.

    The highest quality components these days are either cold forged from
    metal or laid up and cured from carbon/epoxy. (I'm not going to talk
    about carbon parts because I think they're goofy.) Forging is
    basically smashing material into the desired shape between tools or
    forms made of harder stuff. It makes the metal stronger and reduces
    the size and effect of internal flaws, as well as being a material-
    efficient way of making parts. The tradeoff is that the dies (shaped
    tools) for forging are very expensive, and the finish quality of parts
    in as-forged condition can be pretty crude.

    Forging can be done on "cold" metal (in the same microcrystalline
    state as at room temperature), which causes work hardening--
    strengthening-- of the metal itself. It can also be done hot, with
    metal that is softened and easier to smash into shape. Hot forged
    parts have the structural advantages of "grain" that follows the shape
    of the part and diminished internal flaws, but the metal will be in a
    relatively soft state after the part cools. Thus it will be both
    weaker and more ductile (bendable; the opposite of brittle) in
    comparison to a cold forged part made from the same alloy. You can't
    usually tell just by looking whether a forged part was cold- or hot-
    forged.

    The most common sort of stem I see on new bikes is forged from
    aluminum around a mandrel (making the finished product hollow):

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/stem-dimension-thless-sm4523.jpg

    Most aluminum brake arms, seatpost heads, crank arms,

    it seems a good amount of low end stuff these days is cast
    [thixoformed], including crank arms.

    Quoted message said:

    pedal bodies,
    and hub shells on decent quality bikes are also forged.

    Casting allows the the same sorts of complex shapes as forging, with
    even more detail and finer surface finish. (Castings can also be
    incredibly crude and poorly finished.) Cast metals tend to be softer
    and weaker than cold-forged metals, but much more brittle than hot-
    forged metals. They also contain the largest flaws from which cracks
    can propagate. Casting dies are very expensive, but the incremental
    unit cost of cast parts is tiny compared to most other processes. As
    a result, cast parts are common on cheap pedestrian bikes which are to
    be sold in great numbers-- think Huffies and other bicycle-shaped
    objects.

    Machining is the term for cutting material away from a casting,
    forging, or blank of raw metal. Any bike part with threads for screws
    in it has been machined to some degree. Machining parts from plain
    bar stock is one of the most economical ways to make small numbers of
    a part, but one of the most expensive ways to mass-produce parts. It
    produces a huge amount of swarf (chips) which must be recycled or
    discarded.

    Machining includes milling (which would be used to make a crank or
    fancy chainring) and turning (which would be used to make a hub shell
    or pedal spindle), as well as other processes like drilling, tapping
    (making threads), broaching (making splines and keyways), flycutting,
    and surface grinding. CNC stands for "computer numeric control",
    meaning the machine runs under the command of a computer which has
    been programmed with toolpaths by its operator. CNC machining allows
    shapes and finish quality which were not feasible when the machines
    were controlled exclusively by hand cranks and levers.

    It's common these days for forgings to be machined on all exposed
    surfaces. This accomplishes two primary things: It brings the part
    to a very uniform shape and finish, and it makes the part shiny and
    attractive to the consumer without the need for much more surface
    treatment.

    surface finish is also a primary consideration in fatigue initiation.
    "shiny" has significant fatigue benefits, not just consumer attraction.

    Quoted message said:


    Stamping is another process that can be seen in some metal bike
    parts. Stamping uses punches and dies to strike flat forms from metal
    sheet or plate, sometimes bashing curved surfaces into the parts in
    the same process or a subsequent step. Cheap steel single-pivot
    calipers are probably the best-known stampings used in bikes, though
    there are plenty of other examples. Seat guts are stamped, as are
    some brake levers. Steel chainrings, sprockets, derailleurs, and hubs
    are almost always stamped. Lots of steel stems are made by stamping
    or a combination of stamping and welding. Pedal cages are stamped.

    stamping imparts additional cold work, which in turn can increase
    strength - it's not all bad. especially in applications like sprockets.

    Quoted message said:


    The benefit of stamping is entirely in its low manufacturing cost.
    Parts made this way usually lack rigidity for their weight, owing to
    their thin, flattened and mostly open sections.

    there are additional benefits though - see above.

    Quoted message said:


    Welding is used for some parts, like stems and a few cranks and
    seatposts. Welding from sections of tube results in a naturally stiff
    and efficient structure with all its mass close to the part surface,
    where the material can best resist stresses. The drawbacks are
    relatively high labor cost and significant variations in uniformity
    and quality control. Almost all welded parts will need some amount of
    machining before and after welding.

    it's also harder to make a welded part behave well in fatigue.

    Quoted message said:


    I may have left out some noteworthy processes, but at the moment I
    think that's about all the common metalworking techniques used in the
    manufacturing of bike parts.

    not bad... but you could write theses on this stuff if you want to be
    pedantic.

  11. datakoll said:

    the road bike frame i ride is 20 years old. Slowly over time and
    replacement, all parts were upgraded to contemporary Shimano Deore and
    now resin MTB grips.
    I accumulated and used three salvedged sets of 20 year old SunTour and
    generic Tiwanese parts sharing a common end-the parts cracked.
    The contemporary Deore parts show no signs of cracking or metal
    fatigue but slowly, progressively wear out.
    Is that difference alloy or forged vs cast?


    it can be, yes. from my experience, a lot of cast bike parts are softer
    and less wear resistant. certainly less fatigue resistant.

  12. "datakoll" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    the road bike frame i ride is 20 years old. Slowly over time and
    replacement, all parts were upgraded to contemporary Shimano Deore and
    now resin MTB grips.
    I accumulated and used three salvedged sets of 20 year old SunTour and
    generic Tiwanese parts sharing a common end-the parts cracked.
    The contemporary Deore parts show no signs of cracking or metal
    fatigue but slowly, progressively wear out.
    Is that difference alloy or forged vs cast?

    Alloy means the base metal has other elements mixed with it to alter it's
    properties.

    Forging is a manufacturing method where a metal is hammered into a base
    shape. This produces one of the strongest shapes possible because the
    metal's grain is lined up in a common direction. Think of a piece of wood
    that comes directly from a tree, all the grain of the wood runs parallel to
    the growth of the tree.

    Casting is simply molted metal poured into a mold and allowed to cool,
    compare it with particle board in wood.

    I haven't thought much about it but would think a lot of bicycle parts
    especially derailler and shifter components all start life as "investment
    castings". This is where they have a mold and cast a wax part, the wax
    part is coated with a ceramic type material and furnaced, hardening the
    ceramic and melting the wax (hence the name "lost wax" casting. Molten
    metal is poured in the ceramic mold which is broken away after the metal
    cools. This produces a very accurate part with close tolerances and a
    surface finish much like plastic. It's also possible to cast metals like
    aluminum, stainless steel, and titanium.

  13. jim beam' who? said:

    ...most producers suck it to see.

    Huh?

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

  14. Chalo Colina said:

    ...
    I may have left out some noteworthy processes, but at the moment I
    think that's about all the common metalworking techniques used in the
    manufacturing of bike parts.

    Chalo neglects to mention the drinking of beer [1] by the machinist
    after the work is done.

    [1] The skill of the machinist can be correlated to the quality of the
    beer.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

  15. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    jim beam' who? said:

    ...most producers suck it to see.

    Huh?

    "suck it and see" is a common expression hereabouts. but maybe that's
    because i live in san francisco.

  16. jim beam said:
    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    jim beam' who? said:

    ...most producers suck it to see.

    Quoted message said:

    Huh?

    "suck it and see" is a common expression hereabouts. but maybe that's
    because i live in san francisco.

    AFAICT, it's origin is the UK. I first encountered the phrase in a
    book about engine carburation, where "suck it and see" was (literally)
    the only way to test new carb jetting.

  17. Chalo Colina said:

    ...
    I may have left out some noteworthy processes, but at the moment I
    think that's about all the common metalworking techniques used in the
    manufacturing of bike parts.

    Chalo neglects to mention the drinking of beer [1] by the machinist
    after the work is done.

    [1] The skill of the machinist can be correlated to the quality of the
    beer.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

  18. Ozark Bicycle wrote:

    jim beam said:


    Quoted message said:

    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "jim beam" who? wrote:
    > ...most producers suck it to see.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Huh?

    Quoted message said:

    "suck it and see" is a common expression hereabouts. but maybe that's
    because i live in san francisco.

    AFAICT, it's origin is the UK. I first encountered the phrase in a
    book about engine carburation, where "suck it and see" was (literally)
    the only way to test new carb jetting.

    And the S.U. carburetor gave way to Lucas fuel infection (sic)...

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

  19. jim beam said:
    Chalo said:
    jim beam said:

    you seem to be confused about how cnc is different from casting or
    forging. cnc is simply a machining process that's used for finishing,
    not for basic form creation like casting or forging.

    Quoted message said:

    That's not exactly true.

    i know - i'm simplifying for the context of the op's question.

    Quoted message said:

    The CNC machined parts that brought this
    technique into the bike world were all machined from billet, and many
    still are. Paul Components, White Industries, Ringl?, Avid, Grafton,
    IRD, Kooka, Cook Bros, and others machined parts from plain bar
    stock.

    right - because for a small production run, it's cheaper than setting up
    a forge and /then/ machining. but quality product when machining from
    billet requires material to be much more expensive than would otherwise
    be necessary. and in volume, unit costs are much higher.

    Quoted message said:

    The reasons that many of them no longer do so has as much to do with
    cost of production as it does with the superiority of forgings. Many
    of the aforementioned manufacturers used 7075-T6 alloy, for example,
    which is much stronger than the aluminum alloys used in the vast
    majority of forged parts.

    indeed. see above.

    Not quite; you can buy a cnc for $50G; with that you can make all the
    fancy parts you want, starting in your garage; the forging requires
    designing and building the dies, and you are already at the cost of a
    cnc; then when you start to go into production your dies get smashed
    and need to be fixed etc. and you are at least twice the cost of a cnc
    to prototype your forged parts. it's economics.

  20. Quoted message said:
    jim beam said:
    Chalo said:

    jim beam wrote:
    > you seem to be confused about how cnc is different from casting or
    > forging. cnc is simply a machining process that's used for finishing,
    > not for basic form creation like casting or forging.
    That's not exactly true.


    i know - i'm simplifying for the context of the op's question.

    Quoted message said:

    The CNC machined parts that brought this
    technique into the bike world were all machined from billet, and many
    still are. Paul Components, White Industries, Ringl?, Avid, Grafton,
    IRD, Kooka, Cook Bros, and others machined parts from plain bar
    stock.


    right - because for a small production run, it's cheaper than setting up
    a forge and /then/ machining. but quality product when machining from
    billet requires material to be much more expensive than would otherwise
    be necessary. and in volume, unit costs are much higher.

    Quoted message said:

    The reasons that many of them no longer do so has as much to do with
    cost of production as it does with the superiority of forgings. Many
    of the aforementioned manufacturers used 7075-T6 alloy, for example,
    which is much stronger than the aluminum alloys used in the vast
    majority of forged parts.


    indeed. see above.

    Not quite; you can buy a cnc for $50G; with that you can make all the
    fancy parts you want, starting in your garage; the forging requires
    designing and building the dies, and you are already at the cost of a
    cnc; then when you start to go into production your dies get smashed
    and need to be fixed etc. and you are at least twice the cost of a cnc
    to prototype your forged parts. it's economics.

    not sure i understand how this is different from what i was saying.
    except that an experienced forge shop won't "smash" dies. they wear and
    need to be replaced in the course of normal operations, but that's way
    cheaper than the tooling replacement necessary for cnc given the
    production volumes.

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