Cycling Training · Public discussion

Training update

Started by Bailsibub · · Last activity · 14 posts · 1,041 views

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Cycling Training
Published
25 July 2007
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29 July 2007
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Bailsibub
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  1. Hey you all,

    This is an update on my training and observations. I posted a month or so ago about how I'm getting ready to start racing again. I thought my first race would be in September (a nine-day stage race!). But luckily, I'll have a couple tune up races before then in August, a short road race and a hill climb.

    Since my prep time has been short, I've been doing blocks of L5-L6 intervals on the trainer in the morning before work. My schedule has settled into a 3-day block of these on M-T-W, with Thursday off and Friday a 30-min spin. Saturday is a team ride, which generally turns into a race, a long one.... Sunday is off. Block training worked well for me in the past. And I'm getting ready for a stage race. That's my reasoning.

    For the intervals, I rigged up my trainer bike with a rear-wheel computer. So I'm tracking my effort by speed on the trainer. Not watts...but good enough for seeing how I'm doing and being steady. I also found someone who used a power tap on their cycleops to give me the watts at the different speeds. I know they aren't exactly the same, but I think I'm in the ballpark enough to talk about them.

    Here are the numbers.

    This month I started at 5X2-min. intervals on the trainer. Power was at @285 watts for the duration of these. I thought it would have been higher. Man, that was a humbling experience. I gradually increased interval length and repetitions throughout the month. Torture! But this Monday I handled 7X3 min. at @320 watts. Of course, duration and number decrease as I progress through the block, but power increases. This morning I kind of surprised myself by riding 6X2 min. at @360. A few times I went a little too hard and was doing @380-390. It really hurt at that power and I only stayed there for a little bit before settling back down to a sustainable (yet still vomit-inducing pace)

    Some observations. The body can go harder than we think sometimes. But sometimes it can't go as hard as we think! When I can't hold intervals, I find that it is either diet related (I'm only eating carbs post ride and for lunch) or that the recovery interval wasn't long enough. Sometimes I had to significantly increase recovery-interval duration to be able to finish the workout. But I was able to complete all the work I had planned out.

    I'm starting a rest week after Saturday's team ride. Next month, I'm planning on continuing this block training, extending interval duration and repetition until I'm doing 32-35 minutes of work at L5, probably 4 to 4.5 min. intervals. I had thought about getting into the 2X20 stuff, but I think I'll save that for September after I'm done with the stage race. I'm not sure what the racing schedule will be like here after that, but there's bound to be something.

    Since I plan on continuing my racing and training indefinitely, I want to have a steadier progression in training next year. But for now, I'm trying to make the best of the situation I have. I'll try to post more about this all next month.

  2. Bailsibub said:

    ....I had thought about getting into the 2X20 stuff, but I think I'll save that for September after I'm done with the stage race. ...

    You're actually going to try to race a 9 day stage race on a diet of 2 and 3 minute intervals? No L4 work, no SST, no tempo just intervals on the short end of VO2 max and a group ride at whatever pace they happen to ride? Do you at least get some good uninterrupted 15 to 20 minute L4 sections in your group rides like a big climb? What does your CTL look like with all that short interval trainer time?

    I'd be amazed if you can race a multiday stage race effectively on the training you describe and with a month and a half to go I'd add at least one day of L4 or SST right now.

    Good luck,
    Dave

  3. daveryanwyoming said:

    You're actually going to try to race a 9 day stage race on a diet of 2 and 3 minute intervals? No L4 work, no SST, no tempo just intervals on the short end of VO2 max and a group ride at whatever pace they happen to ride? Do you at least get some good uninterrupted 15 to 20 minute L4 sections in your group rides like a big climb? What does your CTL look like with all that short interval trainer time?

    I'd be amazed if you can race a multiday stage race effectively on the training you describe and with a month and a half to go I'd add at least one day of L4 or SST right now.

    Good luck,
    Dave


    I agree with Dave. L4 will help you stay in a race. L5/6 will help you win one. I would go with at least 2 days of L4, if not 3, then 2 days of L5/6. Then 2 days of rest/recovery. Consecutive days of L4 are very doable, consecutive L5/6 is hard. Just my .02.

  4. Daveryan,

    I did a block of L4 and group rides last month. I can ride steady. And honestly, I thought I was going pretty well until I saw how low my power was at L5-L6...not much higher than L4! I think, well I know, that if I'm putting out 295 watts at L6 for 10 minutes, even at 150 pounds, I'm going to get rocked when the pace picks up. I'm hoping and working hard to get my power up to @350 or more for 30-35 minutes of intervals, and I think I'll stand a much better chance of being able to win some races if I play my cards right.

    Yep, I'm going to race a nine-day stage race. My endurance is high...always has been. My team ride is a long one. We do 4-5 hours with several mountains taking between 10 and 20 minutes to climb each. I'm probably spending an hour of time doing all that climbing work. And I'm also making an effort to ride tempo between mountains. I think I'm still getting plenty of of time in the lower intensities you describe. While none of the stages will be that long (crits, a short TT, 2 or 3-hour RR), I know I can go long and also do hard work several days at a time by doing long 3-day blocks.

    Workingguy, you aren't kidding when you say doing consecutive days of L5-L6 work is hard...physically and mentally.... It's hard to psyched for a workout when you know you are gonna feel like heaving your guts halfway through.

    workingguy said:

    I agree with Dave. L4 will help you stay in a race. L5/6 will help you win one. I would go with at least 2 days of L4, if not 3, then 2 days of L5/6. Then 2 days of rest/recovery. Consecutive days of L4 are very doable, consecutive L5/6 is hard. Just my .02.

  5. Bailsibub said:

    ...I did a block of L4 and group rides last month. I can ride steady. And honestly, I thought I was going pretty well until I saw how low my power was at L5-L6...not much higher than L4! I think, well I know, that if I'm putting out 295 watts at L6 for 10 minutes, even at 150 pounds, I'm going to get rocked when the pace picks up. I'm hoping and working hard to get my power up to @350 or more for 30-35 minutes of intervals, and I think I'll stand a much better chance of being able to win some races if I play my cards right....

    That makes more sense, but wasn't obvious from your original post. "I had thought about getting into the 2X20 stuff..." How exactly were you doing your previous L4 work if you hadn't tried that 2x20 stuff?

    I'd still be concerned about coming into a 9 day race without sufficient CTL and that's likely to drop with your focus on L6/L5 work. Personally I'd still keep one L4 or SST day in your schedule both for building CTL and hopefully to help you continue to build FTP. As workingguy points out "L4 will help you stay in the race" if you don't have your FTP up high enough you won't even be there for the L6 crunch times. As this is your first race you should be focusing on surviving and learning and your core aerobic fitness is what will help you do both.

    Good luck,
    Dave

  6. daveryanwyoming said:

    That makes more sense, but wasn't obvious from your original post. "I had thought about getting into the 2X20 stuff..." How exactly were you doing your previous L4 work if you hadn't tried that 2x20 stuff?

    I'd still be concerned about coming into a 9 day race without sufficient CTL and that's likely to drop with your focus on L6/L5 work. Personally I'd still keep one L4 or SST day in your schedule both for building CTL and hopefully to help you continue to build FTP. As workingguy points out "L4 will help you stay in the race" if you don't have your FTP up high enough you won't even be there for the L6 crunch times. As this is your first race you should be focusing on surviving and learning and your core aerobic fitness is what will help you do both.

    Good luck,
    Dave


    If you look at Christian Vandevelde's stage 3 data, he did not go much over 800W. trainingpeaks.com2007tourdata.asp

    Time spent in L1/2 was over 4 hrs, while L3/4 was 33 min and L5/6 17 min.

    Back to my point of training L4. Training L5 does not *increase* L4 power, but it pushes the L4 ceiling higher, IIRC. The idea is to raise L4 power high enough so that you reduce the time in which you're anaerobic. Then you'd only have to tap into L5 for the surges instead of L6/7.

    Having the power is only part of the game though. So it's all about riding smart, staying out of the wind, cornering (crits), fighting for a wheel, and managing your effort so as to not burn matches.

  7. workingguy said:


    Back to my point of training L4. Training L5 does not *increase* L4 power, but it pushes the L4 ceiling higher, IIRC.


    Ok, maybe I'm missing something but... how do you effectively raise L4 power?

  8. Simone,

    Training at L5 raises your VO2 Max. Training at L4 raises your ability to ride at a higher percentage of VO2 Max (and, therefore, at a higher L4 power).

    Simone@Italy said:

    Ok, maybe I'm missing something but... how do you effectively raise L4 power?

  9. Bailsibub said:

    Simone,

    Training at L5 raises your VO2 Max. Training at L4 raises your ability to ride at a higher percentage of VO2 Max (and, therefore, at a higher L4 power).


    Therefore I should first train at L5 to raise VO2Max, then at L4 to ride at a higher percentage of it. Correct?

  10. Simone@Italy said:

    Therefore I should first train at L5 to raise VO2Max, then at L4 to ride at a higher percentage of it. Correct?


    You should train both. L5 is quick to adapt but also quick to detrain. Try reading the "Its killing me" thread.
    cyclingforums.comt314849.html

  11. workingguy said:

    You should train both. L5 is quick to adapt but also quick to detrain. Try reading the "Its killing me" thread.
    cyclingforums.comt314849.html


    Ok, but it will take some time :-)

  12. Simone,

    There are lots of theories on how to train. I'm just getting back to training after several years, but what worked for me in the past (was a cat 2) was reverse periodization. So yes, I would train L5 for one month, then L4 for one month (block training), but this was before the season started. During the racing season, I would mix workouts. So one day, I might do L5 (as workingguy says, it detrains quickly) and then L4 on another.

  13. Bailsibub said:

    Simone,

    There are lots of theories on how to train. I'm just getting back to training after several years, but what worked for me in the past (was a cat 2) was reverse periodization. So yes, I would train L5 for one month, then L4 for one month (block training), but this was before the season started. During the racing season, I would mix workouts. So one day, I might do L5 (as workingguy says, it detrains quickly) and then L4 on another.


    My concern is if you do too much of L5 training you won't reach the necessary TSS to prepare for a long stage race. Eg. 5x4 115% FTP = 1.15^2 x 20/60 = 44 TSS. In the stage race you could easily go over 1000 TSS in a week. For me, most entry level races seldom last more than an hour. So I almost never get more than 100TSS in a day. Except long group rides where TSS is 200, but those are L2/3 miles, not as beneficial for my race training.

  14. I just found out today that no matter what my training is, I'm not going to be able to use it in a stage race. I'm living in Korea and was getting ready for the Tour of Korea, the amateur version. The race organizers had been telling us that foreign racers could race but wouldn't be able to recieve any prize money. Although we have some fast guys who would probably win most of the money, we just wanted to do it to enjoy a 9-day stage race. Now the officials are telling us that no foreigners will be allowed to race the amateur race (even though Lance is coming here to promote it).

    Ain't that a kick in the head!

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