Too Much Protein?

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Aaron Baugher wrote:
Protein Power recommends

Quoted message said:

120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over
200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat.

Holy [censored].

Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but it
stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower.

Susan

Susan wrote:
:: x-no-archive: yes
::
:: Aaron Baugher wrote:
:: Protein Power recommends
::: 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over
::: 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat.
:::
::
:: Holy [censored].
::
:: Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but it
:: stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower.
::
:: Susan

I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein on a
daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation.

"Aaron Baugher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a
vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting.

If you don't keep track of what you're eating, then you're figting a losing
battle. You're making tons of assumptions and you have absolutely no hard
data whatsoever.

If you're going to play, play to win not to lose. (Weight a minute (sic)...
how do I say that ;-)

If you're going to play the low-carb game, play by the rules if you expect
to lose. (Am I getting it here?)

Ummm... anyway, yah, that's total bs. Anything worth doing is worth doing
right. Get it together, dude.

Aaron Baugher said:

I'd guess 3000 calories easy.

Maybe journaling would make this more than a guess?

Quoted message said:

In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm
eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the
conclusion that I'm eating way too much protein -- enough that the
surplus is getting converted into enough glucose to keep the cravings
going and maybe even keep me out of ketosis. Protein Power recommends
120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over
200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat.

The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to eat
roughly
as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when satiated.

I have a protein recommendation around yours (125-145, depending on
workout activity), and I log.
On my biggest protein day ever, I believe I was around 275g. And when
I go big protein, we're talking large prime rib. I tweaked the diet a
little after reading the Testosterone Advantage Plan and was looking
at 1.5-2g/kg of bodyweight, which was working out to 200g/day, or 40/
meal. That was a LOT of protein. Two shakes, 7 ounces cooked roast
beef or turkey, 2 ounces of almonds, big ass steak or pork chops.

What I'm getting at is you might want to crank up the fitday for a
week to actually know. 300 is hard unless you are eating prime rib,
massive steaks or large amounts of protein shakes. At 7g/egg, it takes
a Cool Hand Luke style number to get you to 300 (43, actually, but
it's to CHL what Pete Rose's streak was to Dimaggio's).

Quoted message said:

After all, if I limit myself to 30g of carbs (and I rarely get that
much) and 120g of protein, here's the math just to get me up to 2000
calories a day -- and that's low for a guy my size, and definitely
lower than I'm taking in now:

carbs: 30g x 4 = 120 calories
protein: 120g x 4 = 480 calories
fat: 156g x 9 = 1400 calories

In terms of nutrient breakdown, that's a lot of fat. Eat more protein
(I eat in the 130-160/day range), don't trim fat, and don't worry
about calories until you are having real problems. (That's overly
dismissive... what I mean is, figure the protein, establish that
there's really something wrong and it's not working right, and then
worry about calories).

I should mention, you shouldn't be using the PP(LP) protein minimum if
you aren't using their carb number (30-40, and those are ceilings).

Aaron, since we're in a similar space, at least in terms of macro
goals, this is a link to my fitday journal. I warn you. I am a picky
eater and I don't log spices, rubs, or sauces (I don't make carby
sauces either).
http://fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=maxlharris
(please note, I am not particularly interested in commentary on what I
do/don't eat. I am only sharing so Aaron can see how you get your
calories on >125g protein and <40g carbs...)

Hollywood wrote:
:: I have a protein recommendation around yours (125-145, depending on
:: workout activity), and I log.
:: On my biggest protein day ever, I believe I was around 275g. And when
:: I go big protein, we're talking large prime rib. I tweaked the diet a
:: little after reading the Testosterone Advantage Plan and was looking
:: at 1.5-2g/kg of bodyweight, which was working out to 200g/day, or 40/
:: meal. That was a LOT of protein. Two shakes, 7 ounces cooked roast
:: beef or turkey, 2 ounces of almonds, big ass steak or pork chops.

I find I can drive my protein intake up greatly without lots of added
calories by eating chicken breast (baked, skinless). Just a FYI. They get
very boring after a while, though.

Aaron Baugher said:

I've never been one to keep a food journal or count anything except a
vague idea of how many carbs I'm getting. When you're eating very
low-carb foods like meat, eggs, and greens, you know your carbs will
always be under the limit, so it never seemed necessary. Whenever I
stuck with low-carb religiously, I lost weight while eating as much as
I wanted whenever I was hungry -- simple as that.

But now you do need the numbers. Otherwise you're
guessing.

Quoted message said:

In any case, that got me to actually paying attention to what I'm
eating (though no actual journaling yet), and I've come to the
conclusion that I'm eating way too much protein -- enough that the
surplus is getting converted into enough glucose to keep the cravings
going and maybe even keep me out of ketosis. Protein Power recommends
120g of protein per day for me, but I'd guess I'm getting well over
200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all the meat and eggs I eat.

My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition
changed the process or was I more conservative about my
activity level ...

Quoted message said:

After all, if I limit myself to 30g of carbs (and I rarely get that
much) and 120g of protein, here's the math just to get me up to 2000
calories a day -- and that's low for a guy my size, and definitely
lower than I'm taking in now:

Thing is excess protein grams get burnt as fuel at roughly
50% of the calories of carb. Compare with fat where roughly
10% of its calories get burned as carb. Excess protein
grams matter more against carb counts. Calorie for calorie
the carb impact of fat is far lower.

Quoted message said:

carbs: 30g x 4 = 120 calories
protein: 120g x 4 = 480 calories
fat: 156g x 9 = 1400 calories

There aren't many foods that give you that kind of a fat/protein
ratio! Cheese comes close, but most meats don't. Even pork rinds are
8/5 protein/fat. And if you eat some foods with a high protein/fat
ratio, like chicken or eggs, then you need even more on the fat side
of the ledger to make those numbers work out. Nuts will do it, but
they're expensive, and I can only eat so many. As I pointed out to my
girlfriend as she watched me do the math, if I eat two sticks of
butter every day, I'll be all set!

Fattier meats are at least as filling calorie calorie for calorie
as leaner meats. What this means is if you switch to fattier
meats and you go by "full but not stuffed" you'll end up
spontaneously eating smaller portions without specific
effort. You'll end up eating roughly the same number of
calories without specific effort. As long as you keep your
carbs low! Mix high carb and that stops working (think
cookies).

Quoted message said:

So I'm having to change my thinking a bit, to find more ways to get
fat into my diet and bring that protein number down.

Fondue. Bits of meat on a stick, fried in oil that doesn't
stick so then dipped in garlic butter.

Several types of sausage are much higher in fat so they
are more filling. Pepperoni, salami and so on.

Not trimming your steak has it end up both higher fat and
more filling.

Quoted message said:

I've grudgingly
started journaling my meals, at least for a couple weeks, to see just
how much I've been overdoing it.

Knowledge is power.

Quoted message said:

My girlfriend (who is working into
LC now, having tested her own BG) wants to try making hollandaise
sauce, which looks to be very high in fat, and I'm planning to start
making alfredo sauce too -- just without the noodles. I already slop
plenty of mayo on everything it tastes good on, but maybe I can find
more ways to use that.

Heavy sauces work great. Butter and lemon and so on.

Quoted message said:

I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick.

Lot's of people can't. Try it several days in a row. it took me 3
days to build up a gag reflex so I could not force it down. I tried
shots of 50-50 olive/canola oil rather than sticks of butter several
years ago to prove it to myself - Feel freel to conduct the same
experiment on yourself. I predict you'll be able to eat a stick of
butter the first day but within a few days you won't be able to
swallow it. And so heavy sauces ...

Aaron Baugher said:

Quoted message said:

Protein Power recommends 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd
guess I'm getting well over 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all
the meat and eggs I eat.

Susan replied:

Quoted message said:

Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but
it stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower.

Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120
calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even
half your other calories come from protein on a 2000 calorie diet,
that'd be 940 calories, or 235 grams of protein. So if you're eating
a low-carb diet, and you aren't starving yourself, you're either
eating a *LOT* more fat than anyone else would consider normal or
you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from
*somewhere*.

Then Roger Zoul replied:

Quoted message said:

I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein
on a daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation.

True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of
meat in a day, though. At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of
meat, that's 210g right there, not counting whatever cheese or
toppings might have been involved. I'll have accurate numbers soon.

I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system. But
again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120 calories from
30g of carbs, and 480 calories from 120g of protein (and that's the
largest amount PP recommends for the largest people), that leaves a
LOT of calories to get from fat. You won't get anywhere near that
eating chicken and salads, or even burgers and salads, or even bacon
and eggs. There aren't many foods that will give you a lot of
(healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the
numbers say we need more fat than protein.

If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot
about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to
get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so
that's on my plate, now what? I've already got the protein, now what
foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and
trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein? I'm kind of screwed
at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger. More
likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz., so
I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat
foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more
complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and
build around it."

--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Hollywood said:

The protein power protein number is a minimum. You are allowed to
eat roughly as much as you want, as long as you aren't eating when
satiated.

Maybe as far as the diet goes, and like I said, I'm not gaining weight
and I feel pretty good. But I'm still concerned that excessive
protein will convert into too much blood sugar to be healthy, and
could be causing the cravings I'm still getting.

Quoted message said:

In terms of nutrient breakdown, that's a lot of fat. Eat more protein
(I eat in the 130-160/day range), don't trim fat, and don't worry
about calories until you are having real problems. (That's overly
dismissive... what I mean is, figure the protein, establish that
there's really something wrong and it's not working right, and then
worry about calories).

Agreed. I'll be testing my blood sugar more often too, to see if the
amount of protein I'm eating causes any spikes.

Quoted message said:

I should mention, you shouldn't be using the PP(LP) protein minimum
if you aren't using their carb number (30-40, and those are
ceilings).

Yes, I'm using their limit of 30.

Quoted message said:

Aaron, since we're in a similar space, at least in terms of macro
goals, this is a link to my fitday journal. I warn you. I am a picky
eater and I don't log spices, rubs, or sauces (I don't make carby
sauces either).

Thanks very much! If you're able to run your protein in the 150-200
range that much without any trouble, maybe I'm worrying about it too
much. BG tests will tell me for sure, but even if I'm eating 200g of
protein and not getting spikes, I'd like to replace some of that with
fat. I just don't need extra glucose running around in my blood
stream, even if I'm handling it okay at the moment. My Fitday journal
starts now!

--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Roger Zoul said:

I find I can drive my protein intake up greatly without lots of
added calories by eating chicken breast (baked, skinless). Just a
FYI. They get very boring after a while, though.

Do you really have to *try* to get your protein intake up, though?
Once one goes LC, doesn't one generally get enough protein
automatically by eating the alternatives?

--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Doug Freyburger said:

My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition
changed the process or was I more conservative about my
activity level ...

My lean body weight of 169 pounds multiplied by .7 for average
activity comes to 118g per day.

Quoted message said:

Thing is excess protein grams get burnt as fuel at roughly
50% of the calories of carb. Compare with fat where roughly
10% of its calories get burned as carb. Excess protein
grams matter more against carb counts. Calorie for calorie
the carb impact of fat is far lower.

Right. That's why I do want to increase the amount of fat in my diet,
and make sure I'm not drastically overdoing the protein. It'll just
take a little more planning and effort, because the most common
protein sources -- meat and eggs -- don't have that high a fat/protein
ratio, so I'll have to supplement with things that do.

Quoted message said:

Fondue. Bits of meat on a stick, fried in oil that doesn't
stick so then dipped in garlic butter.

Several types of sausage are much higher in fat so they
are more filling. Pepperoni, salami and so on.

Not trimming your steak has it end up both higher fat and
more filling.

Good ideas. I always buy the fattiest ground beef at the store, so
maybe I'm getting more fat and less protein there than the PP numbers;
hadn't thought of that. I also just got a half a hog butchered from
my parents' farm, so that means more bacon and sausage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick.

Lot's of people can't. Try it several days in a row. it took me 3
days to build up a gag reflex so I could not force it down. I tried
shots of 50-50 olive/canola oil rather than sticks of butter several
years ago to prove it to myself - Feel freel to conduct the same
experiment on yourself. I predict you'll be able to eat a stick of
butter the first day but within a few days you won't be able to
swallow it. And so heavy sauces ...

Homemade butter with salt tastes pretty good, but yeah, a whole stick
of it would be nasty. I don't remember where I saw it, but I saw a
recipe once that combined a whole bunch of spinach with a full *pound*
of butter. Somehow you just kept adding both until the spinach soaked
up all the butter. If I could find that again, I'd like to try it.

Off to fry some fish in lard, with some mayo and hot sauce to dip it
in. Then back here to journal it.

--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

x-no-archive: yes

Aaron Baugher said:

Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120
calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even
half your other calories come from protein on a 2000 calorie diet,
that'd be 940 calories, or 235 grams of protein. So if you're eating
a low-carb diet, and you aren't starving yourself, you're either
eating a *LOT* more fat than anyone else would consider normal or
you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from
*somewhere*.

That's what the fat is for. Plus, unless you're dragging boulders up a
hill all day, WTF do you need so many calories for?

Quoted message said:

True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of
meat in a day, though. At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of
meat, that's 210g right there, not counting whatever cheese or
toppings might have been involved. I'll have accurate numbers soon.

I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system. But
again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120 calories from
30g of carbs, and 480 calories from 120g of protein (and that's the
largest amount PP recommends for the largest people), that leaves a
LOT of calories to get from fat. You won't get anywhere near that
eating chicken and salads, or even burgers and salads, or even bacon
and eggs. There aren't many foods that will give you a lot of
(healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the
numbers say we need more fat than protein.

That's what the fat is for.

Quoted message said:

If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot
about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to
get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so
that's on my plate, now what? I've already got the protein, now what
foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and
trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein? I'm kind of screwed
at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger. More
likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz., so
I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat
foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more
complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and
build around it."

I don't know why you feel you need something to "fill" you up? The idea
is to eat til you're no longer hungry, not til you're filled up.
Tonight, for example, my husband and I each had about 6 oz. of mahi
mahi, marinated and grilled. I sauteed a lb. of baby spinach in olive
oil with garlic and red pepper flakes and we split that. We each had
salad of mixed baby greens with nuts, cheese and tomato with dressing.

Satiating.

Susan

Aaron Baugher wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
::
::: I find I can drive my protein intake up greatly without lots of
::: added calories by eating chicken breast (baked, skinless). Just a
::: FYI. They get very boring after a while, though.
::
:: Do you really have to *try* to get your protein intake up, though?
:: Once one goes LC, doesn't one generally get enough protein
:: automatically by eating the alternatives?

As I'm always LC, I can force my protein intake even higher, up to 250g+ by
eating lots of chicken breast. That's why I find it hard to believe that
you could routinely eat 300g of protein a day. It take real effort to do
that, considering that most meats come with plenty of fat too.

Aaron Baugher wrote:
:: Aaron Baugher wrote:
:::: Protein Power recommends 120g of protein per day for me, but I'd
:::: guess I'm getting well over 200g, maybe closer to 300g, with all
:::: the meat and eggs I eat.
::
:: Susan replied:
::: Not only does a significant amount of that convert to glucose, but
::: it stimulates more insulin release than carbs do, just slower.
::
:: Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120
:: calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even
:: half your other calories come from protein on a 2000 calorie diet,
:: that'd be 940 calories, or 235 grams of protein. So if you're eating
:: a low-carb diet, and you aren't starving yourself, you're either
:: eating a *LOT* more fat than anyone else would consider normal or
:: you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from
:: *somewhere*.

LC is mostly considered a high-fat diet by calories.

::
:: Then Roger Zoul replied:
::: I find it very hard to believe he could be eating that much protein
::: on a daily basis. Until he starts journaling, it's just speculation.
::
:: True. It hasn't been unusual for me to eat 6 eggs and 1.5 pounds of
:: meat in a day, though.

Good grief, man. So, are you riding 100 miles a day on your bike, too?

At 7 grams of protein per egg or ounce of
:: meat, that's 210g right there, not counting whatever cheese or
:: toppings might have been involved. I'll have accurate numbers soon.
::
:: I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system.
:: But again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120
:: calories from 30g of carbs, and 480 calories from 120g of protein
:: (and that's the largest amount PP recommends for the largest
:: people), that leaves a LOT of calories to get from fat.

Yeah, so? Remember, fat kicks in a 9 kcals per gram. Why do you worry about
how many calories come from fat?

You won't
:: get anywhere near that eating chicken and salads, or even burgers
:: and salads, or even bacon and eggs. There aren't many foods that
:: will give you a lot of (healthy) fat without also giving you plenty
:: of protein, and the numbers say we need more fat than protein.

Not true. Try putting olive oil on salads or using dressings. Bacon isn't a
high source of protein.
I've been journaling a long time and I know it's easy to get adequate
protein and plenty of fat calories, too.

::
:: If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot
:: about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to
:: get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so
:: that's on my plate, now what?

Get your protein requirement in *mostly* and fill in with fat...

I've already got the protein, now what
:: foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and
:: trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein?

I think you're worrying about it too much.

I'm kind of screwed
:: at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger.
:: More likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz.,
:: so I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat
:: foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more
:: complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and
:: build around it."

Well, those are general guidelines. I think you'd do well to remember that
many meats have as much fat as protein, if not more. And 4 oz of burger
does *mostly* cover your protein requirement.

Aaron Baugher wrote:
::
:: Thanks very much! If you're able to run your protein in the 150-200
:: range that much without any trouble, maybe I'm worrying about it too
:: much. BG tests will tell me for sure, but even if I'm eating 200g of
:: protein and not getting spikes, I'd like to replace some of that with
:: fat. I just don't need extra glucose running around in my blood
:: stream, even if I'm handling it okay at the moment. My Fitday
:: journal starts now!
::

Significant exercise!

Susan said:

That's what the fat is for. Plus, unless you're dragging boulders
up a hill all day, WTF do you need so many calories for?

2000 calories is "so many"? The USDA puts 2000 and 2500 calorie info
on labels as examples for smaller and larger people. The rule of
thumb I've seen in this group for maintenance is 10 calories/pound,
which would be 2350 for me. I just tried a couple "daily calorie
requirements" calculators I found online, and they say a 5'10", 235
lb., 38-year-old man who gets moderate exercise needs around 3200
calories! When the first one said that, I thought it was broken, but
I'm getting that result consistently.

And some days, I do drag boulders, or large fence posts and farm
implements, anyway.

Quoted message said:

I don't know why you feel you need something to "fill" you up? The
idea is to eat til you're no longer hungry, not til you're filled
up.

"Filled up" means the same thing as "no longer hungry" to me. I don't
mean stuffed, just feeling full -- not feeling the need for more. I
only get that stuffed-and-needing-to-lie-down-and-stretch-out feeling
when I eat a lot of carbs.

Quoted message said:

Tonight, for example, my husband and I each had about 6 oz. of
mahi mahi, marinated and grilled. I sauteed a lb. of baby spinach in
olive oil with garlic and red pepper flakes and we split that. We
each had salad of mixed baby greens with nuts, cheese and tomato with
dressing.

Sounds great. I rubbed two 4-ounce tilapia fillets with spices and
fried them in lard, then ate them with some mayo and cayenne pepper.
That gave me my 40g of protein, but only 27g of fat, so I'll have to
work on that. Some veggies swimming in butter/cheese sauce should do
the trick.

--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Aaron Baugher said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd really rather not just eat butter by the stick.

If you're trying to increase your fat intake by ingesting it
straight, you might want to look into flax seed oil.

Google this NG for info and suggestions.

--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

Doug Freyburger said:

My Protein Power minimum was 76. Has a recent edition
changed the process or was I more conservative about my
activity level ...

That seems pretty low, unless you're a pretty skinny guy who sits
around all the time.
Me right now: 210 lbs, 17% bodyfat so... 174 lbs of lean body mass
I lift three times a week, Intervals twice a week, I call it somewhere
between active (.7) and very active (.8), so we'll say .725 as the
activity factor = 126 g PRO/day

Aaron Baugher wrote:
:: Right. That's why I do want to increase the amount of fat in my
:: diet, and make sure I'm not drastically overdoing the protein.
:: It'll just take a little more planning and effort, because the most
:: common protein sources -- meat and eggs -- don't have that high a
:: fat/protein ratio, so I'll have to supplement with things that do.

This has not been my experience at all. Also, do you consider fish to be
meat? Have you tried salmon?

Aaron Baugher said:

Right. Hence my concern. But do the math: if you're taking in 120
calories in carbs (and Induction would be lower than that), if even
half your other calories come from protein on a 2000 calorie diet,
that'd be 940 calories, or 235 grams of protein. So if you're eating
a low-carb diet, and you aren't starving yourself, you're either
eating a *LOT* more fat than anyone else would consider normal or
you're getting too much protein. The calories are coming from
*somewhere*.

Quoted message said:

I'm not bragging here, or saying I've found a flaw in the system. But
again, the math is pretty simple. If you're getting 120 calories from
30g of carbs, and 480 calories from 120g of protein (and that's the
largest amount PP recommends for the largest people), that leaves a
LOT of calories to get from fat. You won't get anywhere near that
eating chicken and salads, or even burgers and salads, or even bacon
and eggs. There aren't many foods that will give you a lot of
(healthy) fat without also giving you plenty of protein, and the
numbers say we need more fat than protein.

Yup. This is why I always say that it's a high-fat diet.

I only aim at 1400-1600 calories/day... but keeping my carbs under 50g
and my protein around 80-100 g means my diet needs to be more than
half fat by calories.

I frankly get most of that from dairy. That is not the healthiest fat
there is out there, but it's the one I can eat in large enough
quanitity to get the calories in. Fullfat cottage cheese, cream
cheese, ricotta, yogurt and hard cheeses. And a good bit of heavy
cream for my coffee a few times a day.

My protein powder shakes aren't very high-fat so I add cream and
lecithin to them. I can't have low-fat meals and ever catch up.

I don't eat veggies without salad dressing, mayo, butter or some other
kind of fat slathered on top of them. Salads are usually topped with
cheese, eggs and/or nuts or seeds.

I eat the better fats too... lotsa nuts, avocados, etc. I don't just
eat dairy. But dairy is how I get the calories up.

When I first started reading this group, years ago, there was a group
of people posting about sipping oil. Seriously... to get the fat
content up. I didn't find that an appetizing idea, myself. Never
tried it.

Quoted message said:

If I had a beef with Protein Power, it would be that they talk a lot
about building your meals around *a* protein source. I'm supposed to
get 40g of protein per meal, which means a 6 oz. burger. Ok, so
that's on my plate, now what? I've already got the protein, now what
foods can I eat that will fill me up the rest of the way with fat and
trace amounts of carbs and not add more protein? I'm kind of screwed
at that point, unless I put a half-stick of butter on my burger. More
likely, I'm going to have to back up and make the burger 4 oz., so
I've got some protein left in the bank to spend on some higher-fat
foods like nuts or cheese. That's fine, but it's a little more
complex than just, "start with an item that covers your protein and
build around it."

I don't personally think ANY of the books have appropriate diet
advice. PP is a great book for understanding the protein bit of the
equation. Atkins is OK for understanding about carbs. Bernstein is
great for understanding diabetes.

IMO, all their diets suck. And it kind of HAS to be that way. None
of them knows me well enough to make a diet for me, something I can
live with long-term.

Bernstein wants me to eat 30g carb/day forever. That's all well and
fine, but back before I was on insulin, I discovered my bg stayed
pretty much the same at 30g or 50g. So... there was no benefit to me
in going to the lower number. The higher number gives me room for a
cup of berries or melon and I don't particularly want to live without
fruit for the rest of my life.

And frankly, lots of the food he suggests are kinda gross. I don't
want to eat soy-based fake bacon, thanks very much. If I have to eat
that [censored], I'd rather just have the heart attack now, thanks.

But I recommend Bernstein to every diabetic I know. I gave his book
to a few people last Christmas. He does a GREAT job of teaching about
diabetes, and you don't have to eat what he says to learn from him.

Understanding all of this stuff is only the first part of the equation
- knowing your own best numbers for carbs, protein and calories (which
defines how much fat you need).

The second part is figuring out how to translate those numbers into a
diet that is palatable, enjoyable, and that you can live with long-
term.

That's what makes the ideal diet - the one you can stick with and
ENJOY sticking with. You have to *live* with your diet.

No book can possibly know that I love avocados but don't like fish. I
am the one who has to figure out how to fit the information on how to
eat into my own life.