Turning right.

Martin Dann said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Cyclists unlike motorists do not have to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road and some cyclists cycle unpredictably,
especially children so it's not surprising that motorists will expect
cyclists to pull out in front of them and err on the side of caution.

Martin Dann said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find
disconcerting.

Martin.

i can't say i've ever had that. for roundabouts i tend to take the road
so possibly they don't get a chance?

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

Martin Dann said:

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find disconcerting.

It isn't just a bike thing or a mini-roundabout thing. There are some 'helpful' drivers
who confuse the hell out of everybody by giving way when they should be getting on and out
of the way.

I suspect if you're finding this happens more to you on your bike that it's because you're
intensely gazing at the driver who 'gets a message that you want your bit of the road!'
and errs on the side of letting you go first. So you may be 'doing it right' even if the
outcome is a bit queer.

--
Peter Fox
Beer, dancing, cycling and lots more at www.eminent.demon.co.uk

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:35:57 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find
disconcerting.

Disconcerting, yes, but usually avoidable. A road user indicating
right (or left) should really only do so to say to other road users
"I'm about to move across". As such, the (RHL) car could be forgiven
for thinking that either you expected him to stop or that you hadn't
seen him.

Instead, I like to ensure that my signals are only performed when
there's no chance of misinterpretation, either by moving across
immediately or waiting fot the car behind to get past. As you say it
'happens fairly often' I suggest you review your use, and particularly
timing, of hand signals.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

In article <[email hidden]>, Martin Dann
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find
disconcerting.

It is disconcerting - do you break the deadlock by proceeding against
the other road user's right of way, or do you just sit there until he
gets the message? It's least confusing if nobody surrenders his ROW -
there's no way of knowing when someone might change his mind and reclaim
ROW just as you're taking him up on his invitation to pull out in front
of him. This sort of thing does happen anyway when several vehicles
arrive at a roundabout at the same time from different directions, and
someone has to take the plunge. Many drivers don't seem to have much
idea of who has ROW in some situations anyway. :-(

In article <[email hidden]>, Ace
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:35:57 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find
disconcerting.

Disconcerting, yes, but usually avoidable. A road user indicating
right (or left) should really only do so to say to other road users
"I'm about to move across". As such, the (RHL) car could be forgiven
for thinking that either you expected him to stop or that you hadn't
seen him.

I think you misunderstood the scenario.

Ace said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:35:57 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

Disconcerting, yes, but usually avoidable. A road user indicating
right (or left) should really only do so to say to other road users
"I'm about to move across". As such, the (RHL) car could be
forgiven for thinking that either you expected him to stop or that
you hadn't seen him.

I don't think that's what the highway code says. Rule 160 is quite
clear that you should signal on the approach to the roundabout.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:11:49 +0100, Rob Morley <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Ace
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:35:57 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find
disconcerting.

Disconcerting, yes, but usually avoidable. A road user indicating
right (or left) should really only do so to say to other road users
"I'm about to move across". As such, the (RHL) car could be forgiven
for thinking that either you expected him to stop or that you hadn't
seen him.

I think you misunderstood the scenario.

Yes, I did. Apologies.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

Ian Smith said:

Ace said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:35:57 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

Disconcerting, yes, but usually avoidable. A road user indicating
right (or left) should really only do so to say to other road users
"I'm about to move across". As such, the (RHL) car could be
forgiven for thinking that either you expected him to stop or that
you hadn't seen him.

I don't think that's what the highway code says. Rule 160 is quite
clear that you should signal on the approach to the roundabout.

Yeah, my misunderstanding of the scenario.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom

Haggis McMutton said:

Cyclists unlike motorists do not have to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road

Err... I have had a full driving licence for 25 years, and drive 20
thousand business miles a year.
Care to rephrase that one?

Martin Dann said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn right. There
were cars behind me, and cars approaching the roundabout about from the
left and right. So I signalled right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was going to get there
before me, so I slowed down to give way, unfortunately the driver
decided to wait for me to go. The car from the left arrived after me so
stopped and waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go, when the car from
the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal right, and the
traffic that has right of way gives way stopping everyone.

Am I the only one that gets this behaviour which I find disconcerting.

It is more evidence that supports the view that it is a road user's
perception of whether they have an incontrovertible right-of-way over
other road users that dictates how they behave in interactions with
other road users, not the often spouted view that it is the relative
superior power and strength of their vehicle.

It suggests that if priorities are made ambiguous (even if
unintentionally as at mini-roundabouts), that users will take more care,
and that roads will become safer.

Traffic lights, give-way lines, signs, etc., add to the perception of
"certainty" of right-of-way, and remove the perceived need to take any
particular care at junctions, and impart the (often mistaken) belief
that others will /always/ wait their turn - and that if they don't it is
automatically their fault if a collision occurs.

--
Matt B

John Hearns said the following on 24/07/2007 09:03:

Quoted message said:

Err... I have had a full driving licence for 25 years, and drive 20
thousand business miles a year.
Care to rephrase that one?

Haggis said that cyclists "do not have to have", not "do not have".
There's an important difference.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

Haggis said that cyclists "do not have to have", not "do not have".
There's an important difference.

Point taken.

John Hearns said:

Haggis McMutton said:

Cyclists unlike motorists do not have to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road

Err... I have had a full driving licence for 25 years, and drive 20
thousand business miles a year.
Care to rephrase that one?

Cyclists unlike motorists do not /have/ to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road.

Is that better?

--
Matt B

Haggis McMutton said:

Martin Dann said:

I was approaching a 3 exit mini roundabout today to turn
right. There were cars behind me, and cars approaching the
roundabout about from the left and right. So I signalled
right as I approached.

As was arriving I saw that the car from the right was
going to get there before me, so I slowed down to give
way, unfortunately the driver decided to wait for me to
go. The car from the left arrived after me so stopped and
waited for me.

So there we all were sat waiting for each other to go,
when the car from the right should have gone.

This sort of thing happens fairly often when I signal
right, and the traffic that has right of way gives way
stopping everyone.

Cyclists unlike motorists do not have to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road and some cyclists cycle unpredictably,
especially children so it's not surprising that motorists will expect
cyclists to pull out in front of them and err on the side of caution.

This is a good thing; as the motorist is in charge of the equivalent of a
loaded lethal weapon, he or she should be most aware of the actions of
ordinary citizens exercising their rights. If he or she is unable to
adjust his or her driving to avoid injury or property damage, that would be
sufficient grounds for having the priviledge of driving withdrawn.

A law which enforced immediate withdrawl of the priviledge of driving
whenever a collision resulting in injury, until such time as the driver(s)
had been found to be not at fault might do wonders.

On Jul 24, 11:48 am, _ <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A law which enforced immediate withdrawl of the priviledge of driving
whenever a collision resulting in injury, until such time as the driver(s)
had been found to be not at fault might do wonders.

I think you are right in theory. In practice I suspect the number of
"hit-and-run" incidents would increase.

PhilD

--
<><

_ said:

A law which enforced immediate withdrawl of the priviledge of driving
whenever a collision resulting in injury, until such time as the driver(s)
had been found to be not at fault might do wonders.

I'm sure it would! That is if you think that increasing the population
of the underclass of illegal drivers is a "wonder". The result would
inevitably be less safe roads.

Additionally the incentive (human compassion) to stop at the scene of a
collision to help anyone injured, may be out-weighed (as a "self
preservation" instinct), by the necessity to flee the scene.

Think it through. Try to see past your prejudices and preconceptions.
Do we primarily want safer roads or more criminal motorists?

--
Matt B

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:27:25 +0100, Matt B

matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

Cyclists unlike motorists do not /have/ to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road.

Tell that to the prat who overtook my children, on a quiet residential
road used mostly as a rat run, with inches to spare, then yells at me
that I am the one putting them at risk.

Unbelievable!

Marc Brett said:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:27:25 +0100, Matt B

matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

Cyclists unlike motorists do not /have/ to have any experience, age or
knowledge of the rules of the road.

Tell that to the prat who overtook my children, on a quiet residential
road used mostly as a rat run, with inches to spare, then yells at me
that I am the one putting them at risk.

The problem is, of course, that although they /have/ to have those
things, there is no realistic or practical way to ensure that they /do/.

There are two radically different approaches to tackle the problem - one
is guaranteed to fail, the other stands a chance of improving things
quite dramatically:

1. Continue to insist that all road users, and motorists in particular,
/can/ be forced to achieve a certain level of competence, and to defy
human nature by requiring 100% concentration on what are normally fairly
routine, well controlled, and unchallenging tasks.

2. Realise that the more we prescribe how the roads shall be used, and
the more control and responsibility we take away from the "normal"
users, the less likely they are to maintain the appropriate levels of
care and attention.

Quoted message said:

Unbelievable!

I couldn't have put it better myself!

--
Matt B