Cornering - how?

hippy:

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike into
the corner and keep you body more upright? Or maybe even lean your body and keep the bike upright
(strange?).

Quoted message said:

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering if my
technique needs some work...

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors to consider, obviously. A lot
of the time though it's fear of skidding which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and
quickest way; having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little more cautious
these days and it now takes effort to get over the mental barrier that screams "You're going too
fast, fool!".

Only experience can enable you to judge turns you encounter. I've seen some cyclists stick their
knees out on the inside of a turn, like motorcyclists do on the track, perhaps thinking to lower
their CG; I think it's unnecessary and can only add a scraped kneecap to their list of injuries
should they skid. Round cross-section tyres will also fare better in sharp turns; many MTB tyres
don't have this.

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike into
the corner and keep you body more upright? Or maybe even lean your body and keep the bike upright
(strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering if my
technique needs some work...

hippy

Hey hippy.....

Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

to

Quoted message said:

consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding which keeps people from taking
a turn in the sharpest and quickest

way;

Quoted message said:

having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little more cautious these days
and it now takes effort to get over the

mental

Quoted message said:

barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character than a catch-all "always lean
bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?

hippy

"Bob Incognito" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3fb9a507@news1...

Quoted message said:

Hey hippy.....

Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!

I was thinking about road bikes, but...

What are these tyres suited to? I need some new XC tyres for the 24hr (If we get organised!).

These are UST though I think, do they have a non-UST brother?

hippy

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

to

Quoted message said:

consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding which keeps people from
taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest

way;

Quoted message said:

having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little more cautious these days
and it now takes effort to get over the

mental

Quoted message said:

barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character than a catch-all "always
lean bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?

You must always lean into the turn to have the desired effect on your steering; ask tandem riders if
one of them had ever tried to counter the lean on a turn while the other didn't, and they will tell
you that it always throws the steering off.

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright on a reasonably fast turn.
Part of your weight will counteract the steering because the force vector acting through the CG of
the rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is that you will be trying to
pull the bike upright while turning, straightening the front wheel. Going the other way, that is,
trying to keep the bike upright while leaning yourself will also not work because a bike initiates
turns by leaning; you won't be able to turn at speed if the bike does not lean.

How much to lean to achieve the sharpest turn is dictated by your speed and traction; this is where
experience helps judgement and overcoming fear.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

on

Quoted message said:

a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the steering because the force vector
acting through the CG of the rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if I tried
to "push" the bike down without leaning with it. My normal turn style (geddit turnstyle?! yeesh!
:-P) involves leaning with the bike. The modified way, which seemed faster didn't seem to have me
leaning as far over into the corner. I'm not sure if it was faster or how I did it, exactly, but you
think I should just lean with the bike? I don't really like the idea of crossing onto the wrong side
of the road at 70kph.. practise makes perfect I guess...I wish I could judge corners better, damnit!

hippy

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

on

Quoted message said:

a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the steering because the force
vector acting through the CG of the rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The
effect is

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if I
tried to "push" the bike down without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike into
the corner and keep you body more upright? Or maybe even lean your body and keep the bike upright
(strange?).

On the road (motorbike and pushie) I lean my body to the inside of the corner. This is because it
reduces the amount the bike has to lean and keeps the steering geometry and suspension (active or
passive) in it's best position. It's much easier to do this if you can guarantee good surface and
don't have to worry about line changes.

Off road I have a tendancy to keep my body upright and lean the bike. This is mainly so I can
repsond quicker to bumps or line changes, the bike shifts quicker than I can.

Quoted message said:

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering if my
technique needs some work...

I found from motorcycling that a good firm countersteering input to keep the bike/body leaned over
will cure the understeering, although don't go too far or you'll lowside.

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike into
the corner and keep you body more upright? Or maybe even lean your body and keep the bike upright
(strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering if my
technique needs some work...

hippy

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling Lean in or out on turns?? Pressing the handlebars
down in the direction you want to turn starts the bank, and the gyroscopic action then turns the
wheel in the proper direction to give maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide,
you will be able to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your body. If,
on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in well decrease the
chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock the rear, that turns you
a lot. lol) front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while in the turn?
that would explain the understeer and running wide)

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if I
tried to "push" the bike down without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is: Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean my body AND my bike left
at the same angle. i.e. my body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \. Body and bike on the
same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike to the left but resisting this lean with my
body. So, my body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \ Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like the bike leans into the corner but my
body doesn't.

hippy

somehow this ended up under the leg shaving thread, so reposting...

I used to lean the body, but having some confidence issues on my new bike, and don't lean as far as
I used to...

Mostly I'm chickening out more, but then again, these days I know it will hurt more...

I think it largely depends on how sticky your tyres are... I am running Michelin Pro-Race rubber at
the moment, and when hot, they are sticky as hell, but when cold, and/or wet, they are slippery as
all buggery...

I have heard that the Vittoria Rubina Pro's (from the guy at the shop, when I was talking to him
earlier today) are a lot better in the wet than the Michelins...

I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit harder to corner fast, due
to the small rear triangle... My old bikes (Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa (1998) were
a lot faster on corners, but neither were compacts...

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike into
the corner and keep you body more upright? Or maybe even lean your body and keep the bike upright
(strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering if my
technique needs some work...

hippy

Andrew Morris:

Quoted message said:

I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit harder to corner fast,
due to the small rear triangle... My old bikes (Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa
(1998) were a lot faster on corners, but neither were compacts...

That's not what hyper-marketers will have you believe though. The drive for manufacturers to churn
out smaller frames with the shortest chainstays possible has been all about claims of faster
cornering and greater maneouverability. I don't think there's merit to it.

stu:

Quoted message said:

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling Lean in or out on turns?? Pressing the handlebars
down in the direction you want to turn starts the bank, and the gyroscopic action then turns the
wheel in the proper direction to give maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel
slide, you will be able to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
body. If, on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in well
decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock the rear, that turns
you a lot. lol) front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while in the
turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

This reads like a lot of [censored]. Turning requires leaning the bike first before doing anything to the
handlebars. The rider moves the handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I
don't see how gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by slowing you down.

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

stu:

Quoted message said:

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling Lean in or out on turns?? Pressing the handlebars
down in the direction you want to turn starts the bank, and the gyroscopic action then turns the
wheel in the proper direction to give maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel
slide, you will be able to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
body. If, on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in well
decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock the rear, that turns
you a lot. lol) front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while in
the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

This reads like a lot of [censored]. Turning requires leaning the bike first before doing anything to
the handlebars. The rider moves the

No, it doesn't. The moment you push on the handlebars on the side of the direction in which you want
to go (ie, push on the left side of the bars to go left) the bike will tilt and start to turn left.
This is called counter-steering.

Quoted message said:

handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't see how gyroscopic action of
the wheels even figure into it.

Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously "falling" into the
corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what keeps it from actually falling onto the ground.

Quoted message said:

Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by slowing you down.

You should always try to never brake in a corner, always before. You probably have more leeway with
a bike because it's so light but it's inherently bad technique.

--

A: Top-posters.
B: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if I
tried to "push" the bike down without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is: Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean my body AND my bike
left at the same angle. i.e. my body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \. Body and bike
on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike to the left but resisting this lean with my
body. So, my body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \ Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like the bike leans into the corner but my
body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will feel the bike straightening
up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the
turn, with the bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more if you try to
get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG, and might throw off your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look at your body angle next
time you attempt it.

DRS:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't see how gyroscopic action
of the wheels even figure into it.

Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously "falling" into
the corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what keeps it from actually falling onto
the ground.

No, the momentum of the rider/bike, counteracted by the traction of the tyres is what keeps the
rider from falling over. This is why the faster the turn is taken, the greater the lean required. If
what you say is true, then one can take a turn at a set lean angle regardless of speed. This is
clearly not true.

The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.

Say you are going round a left hander

You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike drops into the bend, the
handle bars staighten and round you go!

This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight above the bikes bottom
bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the body!

Stange but ture!

Cheers,

Philip

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if
> I tried to "push" the bike down without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is: Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean my body AND my bike
left at the same angle. i.e. my body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \. Body and
bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike to the left but resisting this lean with my
body. So, my body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \ Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like the bike leans into the corner but my
body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will feel the bike
straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will encounter problems with the balancing
act: while on the turn, with the bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little
more if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG, and might throw off
your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look at your body angle next
time you attempt it.

It works on a motorcycle because the mass of the motorcycle is greater than the rider. This method
is ok on an mtb at very very slow speeds to turn around (180 degrees) without much room.

Philip said:

The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.

Say you are going round a left hander

You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike drops into the bend, the
handle bars staighten and round you go!

This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight above the bikes
bottom bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the body!

Stange but ture!

Cheers,

Philip

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>>I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared" that I could turn sharper if I
>>tried to "push" the bike down without leaning with it.
>
>I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is: Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean my body AND my bike
left at the same angle. i.e. my body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \. Body and
bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike to the left but resisting this lean with my
body. So, my body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \ Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like the bike leans into the corner but my
body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will feel the bike
straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will encounter problems with the balancing
act: while on the turn, with the bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little
more if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG, and might throw off
your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look at your body angle next
time you attempt it.

I reckon this thread has covered most of the key issues on cornering, but the best one I have heard yet was from Phil Anderson many years ago in a Bicycling Aust mag. Every mag seems to have an article on cornering every year or so, but this was the best for me.

In summary - find a balance on each corner between inside hand pushing down and opposite foot. All the leg weight should be on the outside foot, not the seat or inside foot. Test this by lifting your bum slightly out of the seat.

Individually pushing the inside hand down and putting weight on the outside foot move the bike in either direcition. Use the force of both of these in balance to corner quickly. I am not the quickest, but have gained confidence since trying this.

Also, this will minimise the need for braking, which should be avoided as much as possible.
I'd be interested in feed back.
The above does not answer the question about leaning, but try this. The leaning will become irrelevant.

Good luck.
😉