Expected run times

MJuric said:

What does everyone expect as a "guestimate" in the run leg in a tri vs just a running race
under average conditionas? Some people I know can hold the run leg within 10% of there
normal times while others are in the 20-25% range. What aspects of training affect this most
and what training methods and or racing technique effects this?

~Matt

A rule of thumb for a guestimate is how fast you can run 2-3 times the distance of the tri's final
run. Highly trained, mileage junkie runners, can run a 1/2 marathon or 25K well within the 5-10%
range of their 10K times. Casual runners that tend to train up to and below the distance they'll be
running tend to crater if you get them to run 2 or 3 times their "normal" long run. This estimate
assumes you'll make it to the run leg without being totally wasted and dehydrated in which case
there's always walking as an option. The training aspects are simple, more mileage with emphasis on
the long run at a solid pace, and practicing running off the bike often to get the legs used to the
transition.

JJ

MJuric wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What does everyone expect as a "guestimate" in the run leg in a tri vs just a running race under
average conditionas? Some people I know can hold the run leg within 10% of there normal times
while others are in the 20-25% range. What aspects of training affect this most and what training
methods and or racing technique effects this?

~Matt

My rule of thumb, which I read somewhere, is that for a 10 K run you tend to add about 2
minutes--which is around 5%--this works fairly well for me.

Bill

JJ Waguespack said:

MJuric said:

What does everyone expect as a "guestimate" in the run leg in a tri vs just a running race
under average conditionas? Some people I know can hold the run leg within 10% of there
normal times while others are in the 20-25% range. What aspects of training affect this most
and what training methods and or racing technique effects this?

~Matt

A rule of thumb for a guestimate is how fast you can run 2-3 times the distance of the tri's
final run.

Are you saying that someone doing an IM should expect to run a speed that is equal to what
they can hold for a 52.4-78.6mi long run?

Quoted message said:

Highly trained, mileage junkie runners, can run a 1/2 marathon or 25K well within the 5-10% range
of their 10K times. Casual runners that tend to train up to and below the distance they'll be
running tend to crater if you get them to run 2 or 3 times their "normal" long run.

I wouldn't call myself a mileage junky but my long runs normally are longer and in most
cases significantly longer than the tri races I do.

Quoted message said:

This estimate assumes you'll make it to the run leg without being totally wasted and dehydrated in
which case there's always walking as an option. The training aspects are simple, more mileage with
emphasis on the long run at a solid pace, and practicing running off the bike often to get the legs
used to the transition.

I've done an amount of brick work. For the most part I have no problem with the lead leg
feeling off of the bike. I think I may be lacking in the area of long bricks though. And
possibly not hydratinig enough. Although this would not be an issue in some of the shorter
races, where I still run into this issue.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

JJ

JJ Waguespack said:

MJuric said:

What does everyone expect as a "guestimate" in the run leg in a tri vs just a running race
under average conditionas? Some people I know can hold the run leg within 10% of there
normal times while others are in the 20-25% range. What aspects of training affect this most
and what training methods and or racing technique effects this?

~Matt

A rule of thumb for a guestimate is how fast you can run 2-3 times the distance of the tri's final
run. Highly trained, mileage junkie runners, can run a 1/2 marathon or 25K well within the 5-10%
range of their 10K times.

My olympic distance run pace is very close to my 15k run pace. I believe that is because I train
over race distance much more frequently on the swim and bike than I do on the run. Triathlon run
times are affected by many things that do not affect run-only events to the same degree. These
include pacing on the swim and bike legs, hotter weather, and training on the swim and bike ride. If
you regularly do 40 and 50 mile rides, but run only 10k's, your triathlon run pace will be faster
than if you only did 25 mile rides.

In a nutshell, what you can acheive on a triathlon run depends on both specific training (running)
and overall endurance (a function of total training time and longest training events).

Quoted message said:

Casual runners that tend to train up to and below the distance they'll be running tend to crater if
you get them to run 2 or 3 times their "normal" long run. This estimate assumes you'll make it to
the run leg without being totally wasted and dehydrated in which case there's always walking as an
option. The training aspects are simple, more mileage with emphasis on the long run at a solid
pace, and practicing running off the bike often to get the legs used to the transition.

JJ

MJuric said:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:02:41 -0500, JJ Waguespack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A rule of thumb for a guestimate is how fast you can run 2-3 times the distance of the tri's
final run.

Are you saying that someone doing an IM should expect to run a speed that is equal to what
they can hold for a 52.4-78.6mi long run?

I wouldn't carry it out that far but would suspect that it would give a fair indication of a 1/2
Iron run split by looking at an athletes full marathon run time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call myself a mileage junky but my long runs normally are longer and in most
cases significantly longer than the tri races I do.

If you're mostly racing Olympic distance then a 10-12 mile long run is pretty solid training but you
also have to look at the aspect of intensity and what percentage of your max the long runs are done
at. My theory on long training runs is that you should finish them saying to yourself you could have
held that pace for another 1-2 miles. Any faster and you've done a race which means long recovery.
Any slower and you've shortchanged yourself. But you have to know yourself good enough to judge the
pace on a given day with all the factors involved. My pace can vary 30 sec/mile from one week to the
next depending on level of recovery/temperature, etc.

Quoted message said:

I've done an amount of brick work. For the most part I have no problem with the lead leg
feeling off of the bike. I think I may be lacking in the area of long bricks though. And
possibly not hydratinig enough. Although this would not be an issue in some of the shorter
races, where I still run into this issue.

I consider myself a good judge of pace but I cratered at du nationals last year and went from a
first 10K run of 40 flat to a second run of
23:30 which was a bit over 5K. It was all the usual suspects, dehydration-left too much on the
bike-not enough training volume, etc, etc. Nobody said this game was easy and everybody blows it
now and then.

JJ

Radioactive Man said:

My olympic distance run pace is very close to my 15k run pace. I believe that is because I train
over race distance much more frequently on the swim and bike than I do on the run. Triathlon run
times are affected by many things that do not affect run-only events to the same degree. These
include pacing on the swim and bike legs, hotter weather, and training on the swim and bike ride.
If you regularly do 40 and 50 mile rides, but run only 10k's, your triathlon run pace will be
faster than if you only did 25 mile rides.

In a nutshell, what you can acheive on a triathlon run depends on both specific training (running)
and overall endurance (a function of total training time and longest training events).

Another good point. Total training volume is a big factor. I ran all my PR's from 15K to 25K during
a period when my relative run training was poor and 8 years after the originals. The answer was the
3-4 months I spent building my bike mileage up to where I was doing weekly 100-140 mile rides solo.
Holding the heartrate at 75-80% for 5-7 hours at a crack does wonders for the cardiovascular system
which is usually the limiter in most cases. My experience is that leg strength develops pretty
quickly up to the limits of the cardio system. The legs die out when you lose the ability to supply
them oxygen and anything you can do to improve the cardio system will improve performance potential
in all the disciplines.

JJ

JJ Waguespack said:

MJuric said:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:02:41 -0500, JJ Waguespack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A rule of thumb for a guestimate is how fast you can run 2-3 times the distance of the tri's
final run.

Are you saying that someone doing an IM should expect to run a
speed that is equal to what they can hold for a 52.4-78.6mi long run?

I wouldn't carry it out that far but would suspect that it would give a fair indication of a 1/2
Iron run split by looking at an athletes full marathon run time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call myself a mileage junky but my long runs normally are longer and in most
cases significantly longer than the tri races I do.

If you're mostly racing Olympic distance then a 10-12 mile long run is pretty solid training but
you also have to look at the aspect of intensity and what percentage of your max the long runs are
done at. My theory on long training runs is that you should finish them saying to yourself you
could have held that pace for another 1-2 miles. Any faster and you've done a race which means long
recovery. Any slower and you've shortchanged yourself. But you have to know yourself good enough to
judge the pace on a given day with all the factors involved. My pace can vary 30 sec/mile from one
week to the next depending on level of recovery/temperature, etc.

Quoted message said:

I've done an amount of brick work. For the most part I have no problem with the lead leg
feeling off of the bike. I think I may be lacking in the area of long bricks though. And
possibly not hydratinig enough. Although this would not be an issue in some of the shorter
races, where I still run into this issue.

I consider myself a good judge of pace but I cratered at du nationals last year and went from a
first 10K run of 40 flat to a second run of
23:30 which was a bit over 5K. It was all the usual suspects, dehydration-left too much on the
bike-not enough training volume, etc, etc. Nobody said this game was easy and everybody blows it
now and then.

JJ

I guess I'll just have to keep messsing around with it. Most of my long runs are consitantly
longer and harder, in difficulty/hillyness than my tri leg runs I.E. hilly 16-18 for 1/2
etc. Also I believe that my pace is sufficiently hard, as indicated by percieved effort,
pace and HR. However I always seem to lack come race day run. Very strange.

Thanks ~Matt

JJ Waguespack said:

Radioactive Man said:

My olympic distance run pace is very close to my 15k run pace. I believe that is because I train
over race distance much more frequently on the swim and bike than I do on the run. Triathlon run
times are affected by many things that do not affect run-only events to the same degree. These
include pacing on the swim and bike legs, hotter weather, and training on the swim and bike ride.
If you regularly do 40 and 50 mile rides, but run only 10k's, your triathlon run pace will be
faster than if you only did 25 mile rides.

In a nutshell, what you can acheive on a triathlon run depends on both specific training
(running) and overall endurance (a function of total training time and longest training events).

Another good point. Total training volume is a big factor. I ran all my PR's from 15K to 25K during
a period when my relative run training was poor and 8 years after the originals. The answer was the
3-4 months I spent building my bike mileage up to where I was doing weekly 100-140 mile rides solo.
Holding the heartrate at 75-80% for 5-7 hours at a crack does wonders for the cardiovascular system
which is usually the limiter in most cases. My experience is that leg strength develops pretty
quickly up to the limits of the cardio system. The legs die out when you lose the ability to supply
them oxygen and anything you can do to improve the cardio system will improve performance potential
in all the disciplines.

That is certainly true of running - as long as you're spending reasonably proportionate times at all
3 disciplines, doing "bricks", covering full race distance in training, etc., I think that
performance on the run is more a function of total training volume than absolute time/mileage spent
running. That, of course, assumes the run is the last event, as it is with 90+ percent of all
triathlons.

The swim, however, is a different story - you cannot run your way to better swim times. I think the
only way to significantly improve the swim is specific training.

Quoted message said:

JJ

MJuric said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll just have to keep messsing around with it. Most of my long runs are consitantly
longer and harder, in difficulty/hillyness than my tri leg runs I.E. hilly 16-18 for 1/2
etc. Also I believe that my pace is sufficiently hard, as indicated by percieved effort,
pace and HR. However I always seem to lack come race day run. Very strange.

Thanks ~Matt

Could just be a fuel/dehydration problem. Try bringing a scale to your next event and do a pre/post
weigh in. I jump on the scale before and after every run of 10 miles or longer. On a typical 12
miler 2 weeks ago I leaked 7 lbs. With just 7-8 degrees better weather this week I was down to 5 lbs
for the same run. Race conditions can vary tremendously and only the scale can tell you if this is
what's holding you back. JJ