Lightweight Trail Shoe

Quoted message said:

I've seen things like the North Face Hedgehog which look light and
comfortable but I'm a bit worried about how hot my feet would get with
that Gortex liner. Does anybody have any recommendations?

Try on everything you can: the absolute key to the right footwear
is good fit, and even if Brand X shoes are forged by the right hand
of God they won't be any good for you if your feet are a different
shape to the last used.

I'm not really a fan of waterproof liners, but one thing you soon
find in genuinely light footwear is wet feet aren't actually much
of a problem as long as they don't get cold, and if it's not a hot
day then keeping moving is usually enough. Also the case that if
you ford a stream in goretex lined shoes the liner will just keep
the water *in* once you're through. Orienteers ad fell runners
rarely bother with waterproof liners...

Quoted message said:

Heard lots about the Innov8 shoes. Had a look at these when I was last
in Ambleside. To me they looked too flimsy though.

They get people through pretty serious competitions (onto the
winners' podium too), so they've got the pedigree. Again, try them on.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>,
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> Try on everything you can: the absolute key to the right footwear
|> is good fit, and even if Brand X shoes are forged by the right hand
|> of God they won't be any good for you if your feet are a different
|> shape to the last used.

Yes :-( Unfortunately, there isn't much variation nowadays, and you
don't have a hope in hell if your feet aren't 'standard' (which means
compressed by wearing hard shoes from early childhood). But, even
assuming that, some people have high insteps and others low, etc.

|> I'm not really a fan of waterproof liners, but one thing you soon
|> find in genuinely light footwear is wet feet aren't actually much
|> of a problem as long as they don't get cold, and if it's not a hot
|> day then keeping moving is usually enough. Also the case that if
|> you ford a stream in goretex lined shoes the liner will just keep
|> the water *in* once you're through. Orienteers ad fell runners
|> rarely bother with waterproof liners...

Indeed. I had hell finding any boots without foam rubber and similar
[censored] inside. Once they get sodden (and they WILL), they won't dry
out. If you are out for above a couple of days, that is a real pain;
virtually all modern footwear is designed for day walkers, assuming
somewhere you can dry footwear overnight.

The troops in the Falklands had the same problem - they were trained
for those conditions, but their equipment wasn't really up to it.

If the UK wasn't so damn COLD, going barefoot is the best solution!

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Sat, 19 May 2007 22:20:35 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[email hidden] wrote:
|!
|!> I've seen things like the North Face Hedgehog which look light and
|!> comfortable but I'm a bit worried about how hot my feet would get with
|!> that Gortex liner. Does anybody have any recommendations?
|!
|!Try on everything you can: the absolute key to the right footwear
|!is good fit, and even if Brand X shoes are forged by the right hand
|!of God they won't be any good for you if your feet are a different
|!shape to the last used.

Agreed!! IME a good fit is far more important than the name on the label.
Modern trainer type shoes are all made in a tiny range of widths. Come
back the RAF when I could walk into stores and get a size 6 : width 8 and
they fitted like a dream. In the <mumble> years since I have never had
anything more comfortable. My walking shoes are Salomon, because I could
find some which were wide enough and half way fit my feet.
--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

In article <[email hidden]>,
Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> Agreed!! IME a good fit is far more important than the name on the label.
|> Modern trainer type shoes are all made in a tiny range of widths. Come
|> back the RAF when I could walk into stores and get a size 6 : width 8 and
|> they fitted like a dream. In the <mumble> years since I have never had
|> anything more comfortable. My walking shoes are Salomon, because I could
|> find some which were wide enough and half way fit my feet.

My walking boots are industrial (working) boots 2 sizes larger than my
foot size, for that reason! And even they don't fit well :-(

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren said:

Yes :-( Unfortunately, there isn't much variation nowadays, and you
don't have a hope in hell if your feet aren't 'standard'

Can't really agree with that: you only need to give a cursory
glance to some brands to see they differ considerably in different
places. I still find a lot of shoes too narrow across the forefoot
for me, while folk with narroer feet find some brands to be like
canoes. Feet are complex 3 dimensional shapes and differ in width
and height in numerous different ways, with different lasts
reflecting quite a range of "standardness".
While that may not be as great a range as possible or necessary,
it's still IMHO rather more than you're suggesting.

Quoted message said:

If the UK wasn't so damn COLD, going barefoot is the best solution!

While it is a lot more viable than often thought, one thing bare
feet don't do that well is "hard", and there are plenty of places
in the UK that's quite hard to avoid.
My feet are't used enough to natural ground to make barefoot hiking
viable, though the cold aspect is one thing I can manage pretty
well. I can stand around with wet feet in sandals at down to a few
degrees, and dry feet on the move I can atually make it to freezing
ambients without particular discomfort. But I need the soles for a
little insulation and to account for my feet just not being used to
barefoot over natural surfaces (IIRC regular barefoot walkers (of
which there are actually tens or hundreds of millions in the world)
have the muscles in their feet help adapt them conformably to
terrain, while those of us used to shoes the whole time have rather
lost this).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>,
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> > Yes :-( Unfortunately, there isn't much variation nowadays, and you
|> > don't have a hope in hell if your feet aren't 'standard'
|>
|> Can't really agree with that: you only need to give a cursory
|> glance to some brands to see they differ considerably in different
|> places. I still find a lot of shoes too narrow across the forefoot
|> for me, while folk with narroer feet find some brands to be like
|> canoes. ...

Actually, no. There was a major change in the 1960s, as the British
manufacturers lost out to Italian, and the older, wider designs were
phased out. Modern wide ones are ALL wide in the heel as well as the
forefoot, which makes it impossible for anyone with splayed feet and
narrow heels to find anything. I find ALL shoes available in this
country FAR too narrow across the forefoot if they grip my heels.

There is some genetics involved, but the key difference is whether
people wore solid shoes during their formative years. People who
did not often find that it isn't possible to get shoes, unless they
also have fat feet, because the natural splayed foot isn't catered
for. But this affects only some of us immigrants ....

|> > If the UK wasn't so damn COLD, going barefoot is the best solution!
|>
|> While it is a lot more viable than often thought, one thing bare
|> feet don't do that well is "hard", and there are plenty of places
|> in the UK that's quite hard to avoid.

If you mean tarmac and concrete, there is something in that, but it
isn't really a problem otherwise. A few places have hard and sharp,
which is a problem.

The reason that cold is the key is that "hard" does become a problem
in the cold, both because your feet lose their natural resilience and
because the loss of feeling means that you are more likely to damage
them by mistake. I have walked fair distances barefoot (with a pack)
across hard surfaces (rock, compacted gravel etc.) when my boots
became unwearably painful, and the difference between warm and cold
conditions is a factor of 10-100 in the damage rate.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Quoted message said:

Hi All,
I'm looking at getting some lightweight trail shoes. Basically, I used
to be a big boot fan. Basically, I thought that the biggest clunkiest
boots were best for all types of walking. Consequently I wore a pair
of M4 Scarpa Mantas for several years. However, I've always had really
sweaty hot feet and this tended to lead to blisters. Next I got some
fabric boots, but I've always found that simply wearing running
trainers (ASICS) is pretty much the most comfortable footwear - I did
most of last year's Kingussie to Inverie backpack wearing trainers
with a pair of fabric boots in the rucksack for the wet bits. Now I'm
really after something that's as comfortable and light as a trainer
but as hardy as a boot.

I've seen things like the North Face Hedgehog which look light and
comfortable but I'm a bit worried about how hot my feet would get with
that Gortex liner. Does anybody have any recommendations?

Heard lots about the Innov8 shoes. Had a look at these when I was last
in Ambleside. To me they looked too flimsy though.

Recent issue of TGO suggested a new Scarpa shoe as being a bit "tougher"
than the Innov8 shoes, but maintaining the lightweight "trainer" approach to
design.

That said, the Innov8 shoes do get a lot of positive review comments.

My personal experience of Gortex liners has been very poor (feet went white
and puffy inside shoes), and I'd be reluctant to sink £70-£100 on a pair of
shoes with such a liner again.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> My personal experience of Gortex liners has been very poor (feet went white
|> and puffy inside shoes), and I'd be reluctant to sink £70-£100 on a pair of
|> shoes with such a liner again.

I.e. you got trench foot!

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Nigel Cliffe said:

Quoted message said:

My personal experience of Gortex liners has been very poor (feet
went white and puffy inside shoes), and I'd be reluctant to sink
£70-£100 on a pair of shoes with such a liner again.

I.e. you got trench foot!

Most probably trench foot. Happend on first two walks of any distance, and
not in particularly extreme conditions.

Fortunately the boots had another fault in the sole, so I the shop accepted
a return and they were replaced with traditional leather construction.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Nick Maclaren said:

Actually, no. There was a major change in the 1960s, as the British
manufacturers lost out to Italian, and the older, wider designs were
phased out. Modern wide ones are ALL wide in the heel as well as the
forefoot, which makes it impossible for anyone with splayed feet and
narrow heels to find anything. I find ALL shoes available in this
country FAR too narrow across the forefoot if they grip my heels.

Rather than "yes" or "no", I suspect the answer is "a bit". Quite
possibly not enough of a bit for you, granted, but different
companies do make different heel widths. Amongst telemarkers,
where you've a grand total of 3 vendors to choose from, it seems
pretty clear that those with wider feet (and especially wider
heels) prefer Garmonts, narrower feet go for Crispis with Scarpas
in between (Scarpa favouring my wide forefoot but not so wide
heels). And so on.

There is quite a bit of variation in shape available, and while
that may amount to differently [censored] if one's feet are way out off
"normal", for many folk, quite possibly including the OP, there
will be things that work well and things that don't really work
much at all. Me and Asolo, for example, have not been a happy
combination in the past, while me and Scarpa work so well together
I'm even happy buying them mail order.

Quoted message said:

The reason that cold is the key is that "hard" does become a problem
in the cold, both because your feet lose their natural resilience and
because the loss of feeling means that you are more likely to damage
them by mistake. I have walked fair distances barefoot (with a pack)
across hard surfaces (rock, compacted gravel etc.) when my boots
became unwearably painful, and the difference between warm and cold
conditions is a factor of 10-100 in the damage rate.

Seems reasonable, though I'll be taking your word for it for now!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>,
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> > Actually, no. There was a major change in the 1960s, ...
|>
|> Rather than "yes" or "no", I suspect the answer is "a bit". ...

We may be talking about different things. What I assumed you
meant was that there is nowadays as much variation as there was
before then, and that is what I believe is not so.

Yes, there is unquestionably some variation in the shape.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nigel Cliffe said:

Nick Maclaren said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Nigel Cliffe said:

> My personal experience of Gortex liners has been very poor (feet
> went white and puffy inside shoes), and I'd be reluctant to sink
> £70-£100 on a pair of shoes with such a liner again.

I.e. you got trench foot!

Most probably trench foot. Happend on first two walks of any distance, and
not in particularly extreme conditions.

Fortunately the boots had another fault in the sole, so I the shop accepted
a return and they were replaced with traditional leather construction.

- Nigel

I used to swear by leather boots and wore successive pairs of Meindl
boots for years whatever type of walking I was doing. Over the last 8
months or so I have spent a lot of time looking at the lightweight
alternatives as I find that boots are ok for walks of up to 20 miles but
rather tiring after that.

Yes I looked at Innov8 because everyone raves about them, too light
weight for me, not enough support, stockist dont seem to carry the
waterproof ones, no way was I going to walk even 10 miles comfortably in
them.

Having checked the specs of lots of lightweight options I came to the
conclusion the TNF Hedgehogs XCR would meet my requirements so off to
Milton Keynes to try a pair. Although I had rung before setting off to
check they had a pair in stock in my size they didnt when I got there.

They did have a pair of TNF Ultras (also with a gortex liner)in my size
which are supposedly the next type up the range from Hedgehogs. They
fitted me perfectly. They were about £20 extra but I figured I would
probably spend that on petrol looking for a pair of Hedgehogs. Have now
done several 30 - 35 mile walks in them no probs. I have a tendancy
towards hot feet but no issues there and I like having the gortex keep
my feet dry.

If I was going off the beaten path over lots of rough ground e.g Rhinog
type terrain I would still wear my Meindls for the extra ankle support.
On well established trails the TNF ultras are great I am now a convert
to lightweight footwear of this type of outing.

Obviously you need to try a pair on and see what suits you.

Gerald

Idris said:

Having checked the specs of lots of lightweight options I came to the
conclusion the TNF Hedgehogs XCR would meet my requirements so off to
Milton Keynes to try a pair. Although I had rung before setting off to
check they had a pair in stock in my size they didnt when I got there.

Whereabouts in MK, please? I'm only about 12 miles from the centre (if MK
gets to Hanslope, I'm moving!), so could trundle down to have a look.

Thanks.
--
Peter.
If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.

Idris said:

I used to swear by leather boots and wore successive pairs of Meindl
boots for years whatever type of walking I was doing. Over the last 8
months or so I have spent a lot of time looking at the lightweight
alternatives as I find that boots are ok for walks of up to 20 miles but
rather tiring after that.

Yes I looked at Innov8 because everyone raves about them, too light
weight for me, not enough support

If you're happy to walk 20 miles then you should be getting all the
support you need from your bones, musles and tendons: what exactly
do you feel you need extra support for? As for "too light", well,
how can shoes be "too light"? As light as possible is a *good*
thing, not a problem!

Quoted message said:

waterproof ones, no way was I going to walk even 10 miles comfortably in
them.

You might be surprised. I do a lot of my walking in sandals these
days: no support at all, but it turns out I don't need it (there's
nothing mechanically wrong with the basic human foot, it did us
well for a long time before shoes were invented, after all), and
they're oobviously not waterproof either, but it turns out that's
not the problem I used to assume either.

Give very light a try, I suspect that you'll find your expectations
of problems will turn out not to be the case... (that's what
happened when I first tried it!)

Quoted message said:

If I was going off the beaten path over lots of rough ground e.g Rhinog
type terrain I would still wear my Meindls for the extra ankle support.

It can be a hindrance as well as a help, as it prevents your feet
conforming naturally to the terrain. Look at what cross country
runner use.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>,
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:
|>
|> You might be surprised. I do a lot of my walking in sandals these
|> days: no support at all, but it turns out I don't need it (there's
|> nothing mechanically wrong with the basic human foot, it did us
|> well for a long time before shoes were invented, after all), and
|> they're oobviously not waterproof either, but it turns out that's
|> not the problem I used to assume either.

Agreed. I have done long distances in them - but I wear them almost
all of the time I wear anything. They are a disaster in prickly
underbrush, or even in heather, and in very wet and cold conditions.
But otherwise, what's the problem?

The Roman army marched and fought in sandals. Hob-nailed ones :-)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

PeterC said:

Idris said:

Having checked the specs of lots of lightweight options I came to the
conclusion the TNF Hedgehogs XCR would meet my requirements so off to
Milton Keynes to try a pair. Although I had rung before setting off to
check they had a pair in stock in my size they didnt when I got there.

Whereabouts in MK, please? I'm only about 12 miles from the centre (if MK
gets to Hanslope, I'm moving!), so could trundle down to have a look.

Thanks.

Ellis Brigham in the Snowdome, they have two shops there, one only does
"snow gear" got them from the other branch. Theres a shop a few doors
down that does the Innov8's.

Gerald

Idris said:

Ellis Brigham in the Snowdome, they have two shops there, one only does
"snow gear" got them from the other branch. Theres a shop a few doors
down that does the Innov8's.

Proably Sweatshop.

-adrian

Idris said:

PeterC said:

Idris said:

Having checked the specs of lots of lightweight options I came to the
conclusion the TNF Hedgehogs XCR would meet my requirements so off to
Milton Keynes to try a pair. Although I had rung before setting off to
check they had a pair in stock in my size they didnt when I got there.

Whereabouts in MK, please? I'm only about 12 miles from the centre (if MK
gets to Hanslope, I'm moving!), so could trundle down to have a look.

Thanks.

Ellis Brigham in the Snowdome, they have two shops there, one only does
"snow gear" got them from the other branch. Theres a shop a few doors
down that does the Innov8's.

Thank you. I'll see if there's a decent route to it.

--
Peter.
If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.

Nick Maclaren said:

Agreed. I have done long distances in them - but I wear them almost
all of the time I wear anything. They are a disaster in prickly
underbrush, or even in heather, and in very wet and cold conditions.
But otherwise, what's the problem?

Not the best tool in the box for scree running either, and I wouldn't
want to do something like A-Chir in them what with all the foot jams in
granite cracks on the scrambles. But that doesn't actually account for
that much. I don't go so far as to say I find mine disastrous in
heather, but they're certainly less fun than shoes. Not too bad for a
short-cut of a km or so on a day when they're otherwise perfect.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/