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TR: Twin Peaks in the Snow

Started by Paul Saunders · · Last activity · 24 posts · 227 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
26 March 2007
Last activity
3 April 2007
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Paul Saunders
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  1. It must be said that February's snow was a bit of a disaster for me. The
    snow on the beach had melted by the time I got there a few hours later, and
    the snow on the hills the next day was shrouded in mist and showered with
    rain. Not to mention forgetting to take my camera with me... :-(

    So I was pleased to hear of another promised cold spell last week. The
    problem with snow though, is that you have to catch it just right. Too soon
    and you get snowed on - great fun but not much good for photos. Too late and
    it's all melted. Ideally you need to catch the sunny bit in-between (if
    there is one), or at least you do if you want some decent photos of
    mountains in the snow.

    So I chose Wednesday, the astronomical beginning of spring. It was a
    fantastic morning, not a cloud in the sky. Unfortunately I didn't get going
    until the afternoon, by which time things were clouding over quite badly, a
    frontal system approaching from the west. I was afraid the day would be
    ruined, and began to question whether it was worth going out at all.

    But I was already packed by then, so I went out regardless. The first half
    of the drive was overcast, the prospects didn't look good. Passing Fan
    Gyhirych I was a bit miffed to see that much of the snow had already melted.
    Bill had told me there was a good covering the night before, but it had
    melted faster than I'd expected.

    Fortunately I was headed further east, my goal for the day being to
    photograph Pen y Fan in the snow, since I don't yet have any decent photos
    of it with my 10MP 400D. My last good snow shots of it were taken with my
    4MP G3 from Camlais Pool, near the Beacons mountain centre on Illtyd Common.
    So that was my first port of call. It was sunny when I got there, with clear
    skies to the east, so it was perfect for photos.

    Enough of that, on with the walk...

    Driving up Glyn Tarell I passed a horde of walkers. Arriving at the car park
    next to Craig Cerrig Gleisiad I encountered another horde, a literal bus
    load, emptying from the hill straight into the bus. My mind filled with
    images of herds of wildebeest, pack animals whose instinct is safety in
    numbers, in comparison to say a cheetah, a solitary hunter, in my case
    hunting for photos. It's so much nicer to be out on the hills alone, but I
    guess that's a matter of opinion.

    Avoiding the busy path, I headed ESE, directly up the steep slope alongside
    the cliff. I haven't done much hill-walking lately, so I must admit that the
    ascent came as a bit of a shock to my system. I hadn't been up this way
    before and it was pretty damn steep, but it was all worth it once I reached
    the top. Although the snow had melted from most of the lower slopes, there
    was a reasonable amount above 550m, not a huge amount, but enough to
    satisfyingly crunch through it, and there was enough sun to make any
    photographer happy.

    On reaching the summit, I actually bothered to cross the barbed wire fence
    to go and stand on the actual top, a small cairn a matter of yards away.
    First time I've actually stood on it, so technically I've never really
    bagged it before, but I was never obsessed about standing on the actual spot
    in the past. This time though, I needed to mark it with my GPS. I was
    getting excellent reception with the aid of EGNOS, but my altimeter was
    telling me 638m, 9m too high. It was slightly breezy on the top, which may
    have affected the reading, and it also made it a little chillier.

    The descent to the col was quite pleasant with even deeper snow to crunch
    through. I stopped at my favourite viewpoint for a quick snack, before
    trying to determine where the col was. There's a boggy bit next to a small
    pond, which is the lowest point, but it's not actually the col, since
    there's a slightly higher ridge next to it. The col seems to be near to the
    pool, which wasn't suitable for reflections due to the breeze, but I still
    got a few decent shots of it.

    By this time the clouds from the west were starting to look ominous, and
    interesting cloud formations were starting to form on the leading edges.
    Some rising smoke in the distance quickly flattened out and made a
    horizontal streak in the sky, a clear indication of a temperature inversion.
    A dark horizontal cloud formed directly above Pen y Fan, which made a nice
    photo. I passed another pool on the gentle ascent to Fan Frynych, but there
    were no photo opportunities there either. Halfway to the summit though, the
    sky became really interesting, with excellent "mackerel" skies.

    On Fan Frynych I took another GPS reading, this time 628m, just 1m too low.
    In fact, allowing for the usual 1-2m fluctuation, it was pretty spot on,
    which surprised me, since CCG was much too high. The reason I called this TR
    "Twin Peaks in the Snow" is because I regard these two summits as being
    "twins" of equal status, since they're both 629m on the map. I was hoping
    that my GPS would give a similar reading for each. Alan Dawson rates FF as a
    Marilyn but not CCG for some reason, even though on the older imperial maps,
    CCG is actually two feet higher, but in metric, they both round to 629m.
    I've emailed him about this but to no avail. It seems my GPS agrees that CCG
    is higher, but it shouldn't be by that much.

    It must have passed sunset by that time, but I'm not sure because with the
    cloud in the west there was no visible sunset. It was getting dark though,
    and I made my way to the third pool I'm marked with my GPS to find that it
    was frozen! Yes! Result! (Well strictly speaking it wasn't actually frozen,
    more like slush, but it definitely wasn't liquid water). I proceeded to take
    a bunch of photos of Pen y Fan and Fan Fawr with the pool in the foreground,
    very bluish because of the twilight, some of the best photos of the day I
    reckon.

    From there I proceeded to the large cairn on the NE ridge and took more
    twilight shots. This is possibly the best high viewpoint for Pen y Fan and
    Corn Du. After that, another short walk NE took me to the junction where I
    turned south to follow the path back to the car park. I tried to rush, but I
    couldn't beat the darkness. The path was often muddy, but quite easy to
    follow, even in the dark, although I had to resort to using my head torch
    eventually. It was much warmer below the ridge out of the breeze.

    Halfway back I realised that the snow on the cliffs of Craig Cerrig Gleisiad
    would probably make a good night photo. It was 70 minutes after sunset, so
    technically it was dark (I certainly needed a torch to see the path ahead)
    and there was no trace of a sunset in the sky, but I stopped to take a photo
    anyway. I had to use the fastest speed of ISO 1600 at the widest aperture of
    f3.5, and even then it took a 30 second exposure to record an image, but it
    was well worthwhile. I took two in fact, to make a nightime panorama.

    The result was way better than I expected, although I didn't realise it
    until I got home. The sky was filled with stars and pink/orange clouds,
    although the colours must have come from the streetlights of Merthyr Tydfil
    to the south rather than the non-existent sunset. A very satisfying end to
    the day, as I realised later. At the time, I almost couldn't be bothered to
    stop and take the photo (taking photos in the dark is bloody fiddly and it
    just looked dark grey and black to me), only the snow on the cliffs
    persuaded me to make the effort. In retrospect, it may even have been the
    best photo of the day!

    Incidentally, Orion was well placed above the cliffs, but I didn't include
    that in the photo, the bright star which is in the photo is probably Sirius.

    Photos to come later...

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  2. Quoted message said:

    Not to mention forgetting to take my camera with me... :-(

    For those who know your photographic skills and eye for that fantastic
    panoramic shot .......................... the above statement will be hard
    to believe!!!! You must start doing Sudoku to improve memory Paul.

    --
    Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
    'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
    still brings the same excitement!'

  3. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Snip

    Quoted message said:

    On reaching the summit, I actually bothered to cross the barbed wire fence
    to go and stand on the actual top, a small cairn a matter of yards away.
    First time I've actually stood on it, so technically I've never really
    bagged it before, but I was never obsessed about standing on the
    actual spot
    in the past. This time though, I needed to mark it with my GPS. I was
    getting excellent reception with the aid of EGNOS, but my altimeter was
    telling me 638m, 9m too high. It was slightly breezy on the top, which may
    have affected the reading, and it also made it a little chillier.

    I was there as well on Sunday* having come across from the other FF -
    Fan Fawr and there was an almost constant stream of people following the
    fence but I only saw one who actually took the trouble to visit the
    cairn.

    Snip

    Quoted message said:

    On Fan Frynych I took another GPS reading, this time 628m, just 1m too low.
    In fact, allowing for the usual 1-2m fluctuation, it was pretty spot on,
    which surprised me, since CCG was much too high. The reason I called
    this TR
    "Twin Peaks in the Snow" is because I regard these two summits as being
    "twins" of equal status, since they're both 629m on the map. I was hoping
    that my GPS would give a similar reading for each. Alan Dawson rates
    FF as a
    Marilyn but not CCG for some reason, even though on the older imperial
    maps,
    CCG is actually two feet higher, but in metric, they both round to 629m.
    I've emailed him about this but to no avail. It seems my GPS agrees
    that CCG
    is higher, but it shouldn't be by that much.

    Alan Dawson has FF as a SWEAT, not a Marilyn.

    --
    Roger Chapman
    Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
    89 miles as the crow flies,
    considerably more as the walker drives.

    *One of the extra summits I wanted to take in if anyone wants to try and
    link this with my other message about South Wales. The other 2 were Fan
    Nedd and Fan Gyhirych.

  4. Roger said:

    I was there as well on Sunday* having come across from the other FF -
    Fan Fawr

    Sounds like you had quite a walk!

    Quoted message said:

    and there was an almost constant stream of people following
    the fence but I only saw one who actually took the trouble to visit
    the cairn.

    Ramblers rather than baggers?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Fan Frynych I took another GPS reading,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I regard these two summits as
    being "twins" of equal status, since they're both 629m on the map.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Alan Dawson rates FF as a
    Marilyn but not CCG for some reason,

    Alan Dawson has FF as a SWEAT, not a Marilyn.

    Sorry, my brain was addled when I wrote that. Of course it's a SWEAT/HEWITT,
    and CCG is too.

    My point of dissention with Alan is that he rates FF as the main summit,
    with a prominence of 74m, and CCG as subordinate, with a prominence of only
    49m. My argument is that since CCG is actually higher (according to the old
    imperial maps), those figures should be reversed, with CCG as the main
    summit.

    But if we take the metric heights at face value and assume them to be of
    identical height, which should take precedence? I'd say neither, if they're
    identical in height they should be classed as "twin summits" and have the
    same ranking, with therefore the same prominence of 74m, but that's just my
    take on it. It's Alan's list so it's Alan's rules. He mentioned something
    about giving precedence to FF because it's on the end of the ridge or
    something.

    From my point of view, if one has to take precedence, I'd still give it to
    CCG, because the col between them only gives an ascent of 49m to FF. The 74m
    col is between CCG and Fan Fawr. Normal rules about choosing cols don't
    apply since the summit heights are the same. So Alan is measuring the
    prominence of FF from the CCG-Fan Fawr col, which doesn't seem appropriate
    to me. CCG is adjacent to the 74m col (and the 49m one) while FF is only
    adjacent to the 49m col.

    Even if you ascend to FF from the 74m col via CCG, you aren't ascending to a
    higher summit, so I don't see how the 74m col can qualify for FF.

    Anyway, as an aside, I wanted to measure the altitude of the FF-CCG col, not
    that it really matters. Alan lists a 49m prominence, so the col must be
    580m. However, there's no 580m contour line. If you look closely at the 25k
    map you may spot a small orange dot between the two dashed orange path
    lines, just to the SE of the pool, on the west side of the fence. I'm
    guessing that this is a spot height from the 10k map but without the height
    shown. SN 95975 22098.

    So I went to that spot and found a small muddy pond there, in a depression.
    I didn't cross the fence to stand in the pond, but I stood in the bog next
    to it and my GPS recorded 582m (but after recording 538m on the summit I
    couldn't really trust it). However, it was clear that this wasn't the actual
    col since there was a higher ridge next to it. The spot I found which seemed
    like the col to me was at SN 95965 22121 and I got a reading of 589m, but
    that seems too high (Memory Map indicates that the pool is 585m high).
    Whatever the actual height, it was clearly higher than the point that Alan
    presumably based his prominence on. So I estimate that the true prominence
    is more like 44m rather than 49m, but fortunately that's makes no difference
    to anything.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  5. sandy saunders said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not to mention forgetting to take my camera with me... :-(

    For those who know your photographic skills and eye for that fantastic
    panoramic shot

    Which one? ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    .......................... the above statement will be
    hard to believe!!!!

    It was hard for me to believe too! I sat in the car in stunned astonishment
    for about 5 minutes before deciding to do the walk regardless since the
    weather was rubbish for photos anyway. I was virtually on the point of
    driving straight back to Swansea, and I would have if the weather had been
    better and/or I'd had more time.

    Quoted message said:

    You must start doing Sudoku to improve memory
    Paul.

    What's Sudoku?

    BTW, if you like panos, wait till I post the photos from this trip...

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  6. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was there as well on Sunday* having come across from the other FF -
    Fan Fawr

    Quoted message said:

    Sounds like you had quite a walk!

    Just about but it didn't start out that way. We set out for a leisurely
    ramble along the watershed from the Storey Arms to the Standing Stone
    near the Sarn Helen. 6 geriatrics and a dog. We made a bit of a pigs ear
    on Fan Fawr in the mist as Mary wanted to visit the trig point and we
    then couldn't find any gentle slope off FF in the direction of Craig
    Cerrig-gleisiad, or even a path to persuade the doubting thomases that
    the way led North. Two hours out we were almost down to the col having
    only done about 2 miles and 1000 feet of ascent but at least the mist
    had lifted.

    As the youngest (by at least 5 years) I had always intended to do a bit
    more and when the others decided to follow the path bypassing the summit
    of Craig Cerrig-gleisiad I took off on my own intending to make my own
    way back via Fan Nedd and Penwyllt but I hadn't bothered to study the
    map beforehand and it soon became apparent that even though I was
    setting rather too good a pace for my own comfort I was in trouble over
    time as we had been invited out for a meal in Abercrave so I had to get
    back relatively early. Transport for the rest of the party arrived when
    I was too far up Fan Nedd to communicate so I was unable to advise the
    home team of my change of plan.

    The shortest way back was to continue over Fan Gyhirych after Fan Nedd
    and then down the main road. I knew Nick intended to be on his way by
    5pm so there was the possibility that if I could reach the road before
    5pm I could stop him and he could phone for a lift but if not I then
    only had about 3 miles of mostly downhill tarmac to contend with. Not
    nice but not difficult in an hour even when exhausted.

    As this was my first outing since the beginning of November my fitness
    was only relative and not having the time to stop for lunch didn't help
    either so I was struggling descending the steep slope of Fan Gyhirych
    and by the time I reached the bottom I was absolutely knackered. 12.9
    miles and 3500 feet of ascent is hardly excessive and 6 hours only about
    Naismith but the slow first leg didn't help.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and there was an almost constant stream of people following
    the fence but I only saw one who actually took the trouble to visit
    the cairn.

    Quoted message said:

    Ramblers rather than baggers?

    Grockles I would have thought. Craig Cerrig-gleisiad on its own is
    hardly a day out even for ramblers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Fan Frynych I took another GPS reading,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I regard these two summits as
    being "twins" of equal status, since they're both 629m on the map.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Alan Dawson rates FF as a
    Marilyn but not CCG for some reason,

    Alan Dawson has FF as a SWEAT, not a Marilyn.

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, my brain was addled when I wrote that. Of course it's a
    SWEAT/HEWITT,
    and CCG is too.

    Quoted message said:

    My point of dissention with Alan is that he rates FF as the main summit,
    with a prominence of 74m, and CCG as subordinate, with a prominence of only
    49m. My argument is that since CCG is actually higher (according to the old
    imperial maps), those figures should be reversed, with CCG as the main
    summit.

    Quoted message said:

    But if we take the metric heights at face value and assume them to be of
    identical height, which should take precedence? I'd say neither, if they're
    identical in height they should be classed as "twin summits" and have the
    same ranking, with therefore the same prominence of 74m, but that's just my
    take on it. It's Alan's list so it's Alan's rules. He mentioned something
    about giving precedence to FF because it's on the end of the ridge or
    something.

    I don't think it matters which he lists first in this instance as he has
    at least listed both but there is something odd about the heights. FF
    height is by ground survey and CCG by air so FF should be accurate while
    CCG could be way out if the operator was having a bad day. But according
    to the 1" the trig point of FF was only 2047 feet while CCG is a spot
    height at 2060. Neither of these heights translate to 629m (2064'😉,
    2047 = 623.9m and 2060 = 627.9m. 17 feet is hell of an error in the
    height of a trig point even back in the good old days when the OS had
    been known to miss off at least one Welsh mountain summit which wasn't
    crowned with trig point.

    Quoted message said:

    From my point of view, if one has to take precedence, I'd still give it to
    CCG, because the col between them only gives an ascent of 49m to FF.
    The 74m
    col is between CCG and Fan Fawr. Normal rules about choosing cols don't
    apply since the summit heights are the same. So Alan is measuring the
    prominence of FF from the CCG-Fan Fawr col, which doesn't seem appropriate
    to me. CCG is adjacent to the 74m col (and the 49m one) while FF is only
    adjacent to the 49m col.

    Quoted message said:

    Even if you ascend to FF from the 74m col via CCG, you aren't
    ascending to a
    higher summit, so I don't see how the 74m col can qualify for FF.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, as an aside, I wanted to measure the altitude of the FF-CCG
    col, not
    that it really matters. Alan lists a 49m prominence, so the col must be
    580m. However, there's no 580m contour line. If you look closely at the 25k
    map you may spot a small orange dot between the two dashed orange path
    lines, just to the SE of the pool, on the west side of the fence. I'm
    guessing that this is a spot height from the 10k map but without the height
    shown. SN 95975 22098.

    Quoted message said:

    So I went to that spot and found a small muddy pond there, in a depression.
    I didn't cross the fence to stand in the pond, but I stood in the bog next
    to it and my GPS recorded 582m (but after recording 538m on the summit I
    couldn't really trust it). However, it was clear that this wasn't the
    actual
    col since there was a higher ridge next to it. The spot I found which
    seemed
    like the col to me was at SN 95965 22121 and I got a reading of 589m, but
    that seems too high (Memory Map indicates that the pool is 585m high).
    Whatever the actual height, it was clearly higher than the point that Alan
    presumably based his prominence on. So I estimate that the true prominence
    is more like 44m rather than 49m, but fortunately that's makes no
    difference
    to anything.

    So long as there is at least 30m of reascent it will qualify as a SWEAT
    but if the 1" height for CCG was accurate (and there were on air survey
    spot heights in those days) then FF is the higher. On several occasions
    I have tried to use my gps to establish which particular hump or bump
    was the actual summit of a flatish peak but never been sure. With 3
    heights (there and back again) almost inevitably the far height would be
    the middle result.

    --
    Roger Chapman
    Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
    89 miles as the crow flies,
    considerably more as the walker drives.

  7. Quoted message said:

    It was hard for me to believe too! I sat in the car in stunned
    astonishment for about 5 minutes before deciding to do the walk regardless
    since the weather was rubbish for photos anyway. I was virtually on the
    point of driving straight back to Swansea, and I would have if the weather
    had been better and/or I'd had more time.

    I know 'feeeling stunned' feeling . A couple of years ago I had planned
    this early morning walk, in winter, as a clear sky predicted a very frosty
    morning. I was not dissapointed! Early start and drove 15 miles to South
    Harting, arriving at the parking area just after the sun had rose. All
    excited, I got the boots out and started to put them on. To my horror, I
    discovered I had picked up my wife's boot bag! Now, I know I have small
    feet, but not my wifes size. Feeling dejected, I considered going back for
    my boots ...... but I had missed that early morning crisp start ........ I
    soon calmed down on the way home laughing to my self.

    Quoted message said:

    What's Sudoku?

    Its that numbers game where you have a grid of squares and fill each square
    with a number between 1-9 (I think) ...... and there is much more to it
    ...... I must admit I have never played game, although it is suppose to be
    good at exercising the mind!

    --
    Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
    'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
    still brings the same excitement!'

  8. In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    Incidentally, Orion was well placed above the cliffs, but I didn't include
    that in the photo, the bright star which is in the photo is probably Sirius.

    Photos to come later...

    Paul

    damn !
    --
    Bill Grey

  9. Bill Grey said:
    Quoted message said:

    Photos to come later...

    damn !

    Sorry for the delay, but a selection of them are finally online, mostly
    panoramas.
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/tps/tps.html

    Click on the thumbnails to see the pics.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  10. In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Bill Grey said:
    Quoted message said:

    Photos to come later...

    damn !

    Sorry for the delay, but a selection of them are finally online, mostly
    panoramas.
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/tps/tps.html

    Click on the thumbnails to see the pics.

    Paul

    Some lovely shots there Paul. I really like the Frozen Pools photo.
    --
    Bill Grey

  11. Paul Saunders said:
    Bill Grey said:
    Quoted message said:

    Photos to come later...


    damn !

    Sorry for the delay, but a selection of them are finally online, mostly
    panoramas.
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/tps/tps.html

    Click on the thumbnails to see the pics.

    Paul


    Really nice shots Paul, my favourite has to be the frontal system as I'm
    always getting strange looks for photographing clouds.

    --
    Mike
    Some pictures of the Scottish highlands here http://www.prog99.com

  12. Paul Saunders said:
    Bill Grey said:
    Quoted message said:

    Photos to come later...

    damn !

    Sorry for the delay, but a selection of them are finally online, mostly
    panoramas.
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/tps/tps.html

    Click on the thumbnails to see the pics.

    <Dainty>[censored] all [censored]. You utter abstard!

    --
    Phil Cook, last hill: Heron Pike via Nab Scar.

  13. Paul Saunders said:

    Avoiding the busy path, I headed ESE, directly up the steep slope alongside
    the cliff. I haven't done much hill-walking lately, so I must admit that the

    That's one I have less than favourable memories of... Went up there in
    torrential rain and triggered a minor mudslide: completely soiled, and
    the knee didn't like it either.

    Quoted message said:

    and I made my way to the third pool I'm marked with my GPS to find that it

    The little one just SW of Fan Frynich?
    --
    Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

  14. Roger said:

    Just about but it didn't start out that way. We set out for a leisurely
    ramble along the watershed from the Storey Arms to the Standing Stone

    Hey, twin trip reports, some of which in the snow!

    Quoted message said:

    The shortest way back was to continue over Fan Gyhirych after Fan Nedd
    and then down the main road. I knew Nick intended to be on his way by

    Now, that does make it just a little longer...

    Quoted message said:

    I don't think it matters which he lists first in this instance as he has
    at least listed both but there is something odd about the heights. FF
    height is by ground survey and CCG by air so FF should be accurate while
    CCG could be way out if the operator was having a bad day. But according

    What's the expected accuracy of air surveyed spots and of contours?
    I wouldn't have worried if I was a few metres (sorry, Roger: three fews
    of feet) out unless on a ground surveyed spot height.
    --
    Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

  15. Paul Saunders said:

    Sorry for the delay, but a selection of them are finally online, mostly
    panoramas.
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/tps/tps.html

    That Camlais pool one is my favourite - but they all remind me that I
    ought to go to the Beacons when there's snow there. The only time I've
    had that so far was when I was driving back from a meeting in Cardiff
    and it started snowing heavily just upwards of Merthyr... Not such fun.

    Is there any particular reason why each of the photographs (not the
    thumbnails) link to your October project page?
    --
    Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

  16. The message <[email hidden]>
    from [email hidden] (Rudi Winter) contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    What's the expected accuracy of air surveyed spots and of contours?
    I wouldn't have worried if I was a few metres (sorry, Roger: three fews
    of feet) out unless on a ground surveyed spot height.

    Sorry I don't know for sure. I thing someone (Graham perhaps) put
    forward some figures some years ago but I have long since forgotten
    them. I suspect that air survey contours are, in general, more accurate
    than their predecessors which were based on a limited number of sections
    and a great deal of estimate. And the air survey spot heights may not be
    much more accurate than the contours while levelled spot heights
    (mistakes excepted) were considerably more accurate.

    I know of 2 major mistakes in height from the earlier survey, one of
    which caught Wainwright himself out. That was Great Yarlside, one of the
    Outlying Fells.

    "The Ordnance Survey has recently had a change of mind about the
    altitude of Great Yarlside. For years the height was recorded as 1937'
    although the highest contour on their 2 1/2" was 1975'. In current
    issues of their 1" map the height is given as 1986', an overdue
    recognition that must have pleased Great Yarlside and its few admirers.

    The summit contours on the 2 1/2" appear to be too closely drawn and
    exaggerate the steepness."

    I had to go back to the 1948 1" to find the height at 1937'. By 1960 it
    had changed to 1986. Neither Fugawi 1:50000 nor Memorymap 1:25000 give
    the current height but on the later there is a very small 590m contour
    ring. 1937' would be 590m but the OS is unlikely to want to advertise a
    rather large [censored] with an actual spot height. The 2 scales however
    (as is often the case) are not singing from the same hymn sheet. The
    Fugawi also has a 590m contour ring but this is much larger - about 100m
    across.

    The other [censored] was a SWEAT near you Rudi, Pen y Brynfforchog. The 1"
    gives the summit as 2149' at SH817184 which is close to the North end of
    the 2100' contour ring which stretches as far South as the 178 Northing.
    The 1:50000 has a 656m summit at much the same place with a small 650m
    contour ring and a 685m summit at SH817180 with a 650 contour ring
    filling most of the space where the 2100' contour used to be. It took
    some head scratching before disbelieving the map the first time I walked
    that way in thick mist.

    --
    Roger Chapman
    Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
    89 miles as the crow flies,
    considerably more as the walker drives.

  17. Roger said:

    from [email hidden] (Rudi Winter) contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    What's the expected accuracy of air surveyed spots and of contours?
    I wouldn't have worried if I was a few metres (sorry, Roger: three fews
    of feet) out unless on a ground surveyed spot height.

    Sorry I don't know for sure. I thing someone (Graham perhaps) put
    forward some figures some years ago but I have long since forgotten
    them. I suspect that air survey contours are, in general, more accurate
    than their predecessors which were based on a limited number of sections

    Google finds plenty of references to their current upgrade programme
    which will improve the height accuracy of /contours/ to 3m in a new
    digital product called PROFILE, but I can't find any references to the
    height accuracy of the existing 1:25k or 1:50k maps. I do recall reading
    that post on here that you mentioned though.

    Quoted message said:

    The other [censored] was a SWEAT near you Rudi, Pen y Brynfforchog. The 1"
    gives the summit as 2149' at SH817184 which is close to the North end of
    the 2100' contour ring which stretches as far South as the 178 Northing.

    I had to look that one up - southwestern appendage of the Aran ridge.
    I think we were talking about that one before, when I was moaning about
    the lack of circular routes taking in the Waun Oer ridge and you suggested
    getting up PyB and then back to Dinas Mawddwy via Glasgwm and Cwm Cywarch.
    Still haven't done it yet... It's a long day out best left for the summer!

    Quoted message said:

    The 1:50000 has a 656m summit at much the same place with a small 650m
    contour ring and a 685m summit at SH817180 with a 650 contour ring
    filling most of the space where the 2100' contour used to be. It took
    some head scratching before disbelieving the map the first time I walked
    that way in thick mist.

    I bet you were looking for a 35m inaccessible pinnacle in the mist...
    --
    Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

  18. The message <[email hidden]>
    from [email hidden] (Rudi Winter) contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The other [censored] was a SWEAT near you Rudi, Pen y Brynfforchog. The 1"
    gives the summit as 2149' at SH817184 which is close to the North end of
    the 2100' contour ring which stretches as far South as the 178 Northing.

    Quoted message said:

    I had to look that one up - southwestern appendage of the Aran ridge.
    I think we were talking about that one before, when I was moaning about
    the lack of circular routes taking in the Waun Oer ridge and you suggested
    getting up PyB and then back to Dinas Mawddwy via Glasgwm and Cwm Cywarch.
    Still haven't done it yet... It's a long day out best left for the summer!

    I have had a number of long days out in that area when I was
    considerably younger. Probably the hardest was Cwm Cowarch (as it was
    then) to Cader Idris (as it was then) via the watershed and back but
    taking in Fawddwy and Benllyn instead of dropping directly into Cwm
    Cowarch on the return.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The 1:50000 has a 656m summit at much the same place with a small 650m
    contour ring and a 685m summit at SH817180 with a 650 contour ring
    filling most of the space where the 2100' contour used to be. It took
    some head scratching before disbelieving the map the first time I walked
    that way in thick mist.

    Quoted message said:

    I bet you were looking for a 35m inaccessible pinnacle in the mist...

    No, it was the other way round. Having reached the 2149' summit I
    expected to drop a little and then stay fairly flat as I headed for the
    ridge that ran down to the road. Getting some significant up instead
    really did get the alarm bells ringing.

    --
    Roger Chapman
    Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
    89 miles as the crow flies,
    considerably more as the walker drives.

  19. Mike said:

    Really nice shots Paul, my favourite has to be the frontal system as
    I'm always getting strange looks for photographing clouds.

    Why? Who on earth wouldn't want to photograph clouds?

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

  20. Phil Cook said:

    <Dainty>[censored] all [censored]. You utter abstard!

    Thanks Phil. :-)

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

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