RR: Seymour 10k 2007

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

This is the 3rd year I've done this 3-yr old race

Why do you feel the need to race a bunch of 3 year olds? Does it make
you feel like a big woman to run witha bunch of kids?
You've really brought this group to a new low Dot.

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Race: Seymour 10k
Where: Eagle River Nature Center, out on Dew Mound trail, back on Crow
Pass trail
When: May 12, 2007 10am
Supports: Eagle River Nature Center
Sponsored by: Anchorage Convention and Visitor Bureau, Lifetime Adventures
Weather: Partly cloudy, about mid 40s, light breeze - perfect for running

This is the 3rd year I've done this 3-yr old race and was one of 2 goal
races for me this year. It's probably the most fun race to do because of
the technical nature of the middle part. I wanted to improve on my time,
maybe even 1:30 for a fairly technical course compared with anything else
I run. You guys have seen the scenery before so I didn't bother with any
race pictures, although the camera was on my belt to balance the water
bottle.

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the
trails.

The race itself was uneventful. I just ran fairly consistently the entire
way except for one short stretch (maybe 30 yds) with 2 short, steep hills
(maybe 10 ft high, 50-60% slick mud). Duh, didn't even have "being able to
run the bulk of the course" on my radar as an achievable goal, because of
the narrow, twisty, usually not-well-marked (lots of flagging for race
day), rocky nature of about half the trail. It just kinda happened. I
guess something in the strength and endurance department must be going
right. The down side of that is it was the absolutely slowest time I've
ever done the race in, but there were a few people behind me. Yet more
evidence supporting the run/walk approach for slow runners. And I even
felt in better condition this year than last year. Last year I think I was
trying to escape that really annoying runner on my shoulder on single
track and that might have pushed me. This year was so much more pleasant.

I can't think of anything that I could've *realistically* done differently
in training to build the larger base I wanted and peak for this. Not sure
where I could've made up 1.5 min /mi during the race itself. I maintained
some high-end aerobic work throughout most of the winter, but about the
time when I should be attempting to peak is when we have soggy snow, muddy
breakup, closed trails, etc., and rocks or roots for agility runs don't
start appearing until about 2 wks before race. But it's what everyone
deals with. I didn't get enough high-end / LT work in to be able to run at
that effort and negotiate rocks, nor have I before, but in the past, I
couldn't negotiate the trail on the run, period, so run/walk was a
necessity. Interestingly, the RD warned us about not going anaerobic on
the hills and losing coordination for the rocks. (which is almost what I
did about 10 days before race - pushed the hill just a little, then
tripped over many rocks)

I usually do a long run after the race since the trails here are so nice
compared to our local ones, but was sufficiently tired I probably would've
gladly just headed home. Except I had spent so much
time getting my pack setup the day before, drinks mixed, trying some new
arrangements, etc, that there was no way I was going home without doing
at least a little hiking. I ended up hiking / running another 4+ hrs for
some great scenery and a new appreciation for those that do the Crow
Pass race - lots more rocks. Pack worked out great. (And I did take
pictures of this.)

The "race" wasn't good as a race, but it was a good training run, much
better than I thought I could do from a strength / endurance perspective,
although the speed was sadly lacking. The "long run" wasn't quite as much
running as I'd hoped (no way was I going to jump over rocks with full pack
and tired legs), but it was a great day on the trails and I tested some
gear.

Oh, and this was the day I learned to really hate the Garmin 305 I was
using as substitute for my Polar while it was out getting new batteries
(and fixing a cracked case, as it turned out). It ran the 2 workouts
together, and I'm still trying to get them properly separated. I finally
gave up and just did the race report. My Polar arrived home Tues, and it
was so refreshing to have it on today's run. It's sooo much lighter and
easier on the wrist.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Race: Seymour 10k
Where: Eagle River Nature Center, out on Dew Mound trail, back on Crow
Pass trail
When: May 12, 2007 10am
Supports: Eagle River Nature Center
Sponsored by: Anchorage Convention and Visitor Bureau, Lifetime Adventures
Weather: Partly cloudy, about mid 40s, light breeze - perfect for running

This is the 3rd year I've done this 3-yr old race and was one of 2 goal
races for me this year. It's probably the most fun race to do because of
the technical nature of the middle part. I wanted to improve on my time,
maybe even 1:30 for a fairly technical course compared with anything else
I run. You guys have seen the scenery before so I didn't bother with any
race pictures, although the camera was on my belt to balance the water
bottle.

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the
trails.

The race itself was uneventful. I just ran fairly consistently the entire
way except for one short stretch (maybe 30 yds) with 2 short, steep hills
(maybe 10 ft high, 50-60% slick mud). Duh, didn't even have "being able to
run the bulk of the course" on my radar as an achievable goal, because of
the narrow, twisty, usually not-well-marked (lots of flagging for race
day), rocky nature of about half the trail. It just kinda happened. I
guess something in the strength and endurance department must be going
right. The down side of that is it was the absolutely slowest time I've
ever done the race in, but there were a few people behind me. Yet more
evidence supporting the run/walk approach for slow runners. And I even
felt in better condition this year than last year. Last year I think I was
trying to escape that really annoying runner on my shoulder on single
track and that might have pushed me. This year was so much more pleasant.

(oops my first reply was a mistake)

So it was muddier than other years and hence slower? I know you know this,
but don't judge a trail race time as the sole measurement.

Quoted message said:

I can't think of anything that I could've *realistically* done differently
in training to build the larger base I wanted and peak for this. Not sure
where I could've made up 1.5 min /mi during the race itself. I maintained
some high-end aerobic work throughout most of the winter, but about the
time when I should be attempting to peak is when we have soggy snow, muddy
breakup, closed trails, etc., and rocks or roots for agility runs don't
start appearing until about 2 wks before race. But it's what everyone
deals with. I didn't get enough high-end / LT work in to be able to run at
that effort and negotiate rocks, nor have I before, but in the past, I
couldn't negotiate the trail on the run, period, so run/walk was a
necessity. Interestingly, the RD warned us about not going anaerobic on
the hills and losing coordination for the rocks. (which is almost what I
did about 10 days before race - pushed the hill just a little, then
tripped over many rocks)

I hear you on this one. For colder climates, especially yours, early races
in the year require extensive roadwork and/or treadmill work, and I hate
both of those. I'm convinced that just a few weeks of higher volume on roads
messed up my feet and contributed to other lingering problems this year. I
might have had the same problems running all on trails, but don't know.

Quoted message said:

I usually do a long run after the race since the trails here are so nice
compared to our local ones, but was sufficiently tired I probably would've
gladly just headed home. Except I had spent so much
time getting my pack setup the day before, drinks mixed, trying some new
arrangements, etc, that there was no way I was going home without doing
at least a little hiking. I ended up hiking / running another 4+ hrs for
some great scenery and a new appreciation for those that do the Crow
Pass race - lots more rocks. Pack worked out great. (And I did take
pictures of this.)

Damn 4 hours? I'm always too beat after any race to do much more than a long
cooldown jog.

Quoted message said:

The "race" wasn't good as a race, but it was a good training run, much
better than I thought I could do from a strength / endurance perspective,
although the speed was sadly lacking. The "long run" wasn't quite as much
running as I'd hoped (no way was I going to jump over rocks with full pack
and tired legs), but it was a great day on the trails and I tested some
gear.

Maybe you just had a bad day in the race? Was it one of those 'what the hell
amd i doing this for' kind of days? Weather, conditions, sub-optimal
training, or just having a bad day, and hence a performance letdown can be a
bummer.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and this was the day I learned to really hate the Garmin 305 I was
using as substitute for my Polar while it was out getting new batteries
(and fixing a cracked case, as it turned out). It ran the 2 workouts
together, and I'm still trying to get them properly separated. I finally
gave up and just did the race report. My Polar arrived home Tues, and it
was so refreshing to have it on today's run. It's sooo much lighter and
easier on the wrist.

Hehe, back before those were available I thought it would be so cool to have
a device that did all those can do now, but I'm sticking to the thing I read
in some running book a long time ago, which was to keep track of miles, or
time, but normally not both. Time and effort are all that matter to me. I
may get more into pacing at some point, but for now it seems to work well to
'ask' my body 'ok this race should be about 2 hours (for example), how hard
can you go for that long?'. If you've been training with time and effort,
both perceived feel and sometimes HR, you can get a damn good feedback from
your body and mind on that question, when training or racing. I only wear
the HRM on long runs or on speed days now, and of course in races, just to
look at afterwards, not to pace in the race.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

Hi Dot, congrats on a fun race.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ended up hiking / running another 4+ hrs for
some great scenery and a new appreciation for those that do the Crow
Pass race - lots more rocks. Pack worked out great. (And I did take
pictures of this.)

Quoted message said:

Damn 4 hours? I'm always too beat after any race to do much more than a
long cooldown jog.

Yeah, that proves

a) You're undertrained for higher output work
or
b) You were sandbagging... :-)

I usually slog through 3 slow miles after a 10k or shorter race, but it
ain't pretty.

Re the walking, I talked to the winner of a mountainous, 4000' net uphill 50
miler after the race once, and he complained:

"You know I walked almost 5 miles of last year's race, and this year I was
in better shape and ran every step, and I only finished a couple of minutes
faster!"

D Stumpus said:

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

Hi Dot, congrats on a fun race.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ended up hiking / running another 4+ hrs for
some great scenery and a new appreciation for those that do the Crow
Pass race - lots more rocks. Pack worked out great. (And I did take
pictures of this.)

Quoted message said:

Damn 4 hours? I'm always too beat after any race to do much more than a
long cooldown jog.

Yeah, that proves

a) You're undertrained for higher output work

agreed, which I acknowledged. 😉

However, as firm grass became available to train on (all 100 meters of
it), I started inserting some attempts at higher end work (easy out,
hard back or whatever) until by the time I did have some reasonable
length of dry dirt, I was able to handle about 30 min of high end
aerobic (83-87% max hr), but marginally. I did have several workouts in
that range - about 1 hr total, 30 min higher efforts. With another week,
I might have been able to push over into the LT range (87-92% max hr). I
had done some pushing at that level when we had some hard snow and not
too cold temps, but that was well over a month before.

FWIW, I did end up spending 55:21 in the high-end aerobic (75-81% hrr,
83-87% max hr) and 40:08 in the LT zones (81-86% hrr, 87-91% max hr) ,
but a few bpm were probably race-day effect. LT efforts were spread out.
(about 5 min easy effort near start, and 1 min above LT bits here and
there) Average hr was 80% hrr (156) and max was 86% hrr. Half-mile
splits averaged 80-82% hrr, except for miles 0.5 and 4.5, which were a
little low, and the finish which averaged 83% max hrr. (For perspective,
I use 180 as max hr, resting 120, and LT turn is near 160 give or take a
little depending on day, training, etc.) The graph with hr, pace, and
elevation showed the pace tracked the hills, but the hr was relatively
constant, regardless of hills. Like I said, it was a good training run.
Unfortunately, it was supposed to be a race.

(Side note: my gp started me on some blood pressure meds back in the
fall. I had been borderline for a long time, and a combination of mine
going slightly higher and them lowering stds. Anyway, I've had some
sporadic problems at LT and above with some light headedness that's new
this year, and not sure if it's related to meds and adjusting to them or
not. It's mostly in hot gym or fairly cold (-5F) race in the first few
months. I have told him about it. That, combined with challenging
footing and lack of training at that level, was why I didn't try to push
above that level, although I'm not sure I could have.)

And the paces on non-rocky terrain were about as fast (12-13min/mi) as I
go on short, flat training runs (1 hr run) at high-end aerobic.

Yep, I really shoulda walked.

Quoted message said:

or
b) You were sandbagging... :-)

Well, if I sandbagged, I sandbagged pretty uniformly and at effort
faster than my training. 😉 But I always get that feeling on any race
over 1 hr. If they're below LT (longer than 1 hr) and don't have
extensive 30% downhill slopes, they tend not to be painful. But I've
never trained enough at higher efforts to spend much time there -
certainly not 2 wks after first dirt run. September xc races maybe, but
not there yet.

or
(c) I recover really fast from the efforts I am trained at, assuming
they're not on cambered roads.😉

Quoted message said:

I usually slog through 3 slow miles after a 10k or shorter race, but it
ain't pretty.

For you, a 10k is above LT. It's more like my 5k. And yes, they really
hurt if I run it hard. And, yea, for our local 5k, I help clean up, then
go for a reaaaally gentle jog, at most. I think my longest recovery was
from the 5k xc about 1.5 yr ago - definitely more than 3 days. But I
don't train at those efforts.

Quoted message said:

Re the walking, I talked to the winner of a mountainous, 4000' net uphill 50
miler after the race once, and he complained:

"You know I walked almost 5 miles of last year's race, and this year I was
in better shape and ran every step, and I only finished a couple of minutes
faster!"

I agree. This was kinda weird that I could even begin to run the whole
thing and it certainly wasn't something I was aiming for. I just kinda
got into a rhythm and kept moving. I felt like my old Wagoneer - just
kept moving over everything.

There was one lady in front of me - a good ways in front - but she was
run / tie shoe / walking or whatever. But I could see her run, pant or
lean over to tie shoe (or something), walk, look back, see me gaining,
start running again, repeat. My constant effort eventually caught up to
her, but I didn't pass when she offered the trail, since I didn't think
I'd be that much faster and preferred not to have someone on my heels on
the rocky downhill and knew the wide part was coming up shortly. I don't
think that I lost much time there though. I did pass a few minutes later
when she met up with some of her friends at mile 3 and they stopped,
were chatting with volunteers, etc. I had a rhythm going and just kept
moving. Felt a little rude, but, well, stopping completely just wasn't
on my agenda. The 4 of us finished within a couple minutes of each other
- with me running fairly consistent effort and them run/walking. They
were all younger, some much younger. Even an ugly run/walk (I now
understand some people's perspectives about run/walk, but this is the
first I've ever seen it this way) can be as fast as all running or a
more controlled run/walk (walk hills, run flats, downs, which is what I
normally see and do myself).

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:13:14 GMT, "Tony S." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Race: Seymour 10k
Where: Eagle River Nature Center, out on Dew Mound trail, back on Crow
Pass trail
When: May 12, 2007 10am
Supports: Eagle River Nature Center
Sponsored by: Anchorage Convention and Visitor Bureau, Lifetime Adventures
Weather: Partly cloudy, about mid 40s, light breeze - perfect for running

This is the 3rd year I've done this 3-yr old race and was one of 2 goal
races for me this year. It's probably the most fun race to do because of
the technical nature of the middle part. I wanted to improve on my time,
maybe even 1:30 for a fairly technical course compared with anything else
I run. You guys have seen the scenery before so I didn't bother with any
race pictures, although the camera was on my belt to balance the water
bottle.

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the
trails.

I don't know, but a great day of running in a beautiful area may beat
a fast time. I'd say you did pretty good.

I train on trails, race on the street. I can never go fast on the
trails, even when I make and effort to do so.

Frank

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The race itself was uneventful. I just ran fairly consistently the entire
way except for one short stretch (maybe 30 yds) with 2 short, steep hills
(maybe 10 ft high, 50-60% slick mud). Duh, didn't even have "being able to
run the bulk of the course" on my radar as an achievable goal, because of
the narrow, twisty, usually not-well-marked (lots of flagging for race
day), rocky nature of about half the trail. It just kinda happened. I
guess something in the strength and endurance department must be going
right. The down side of that is it was the absolutely slowest time I've
ever done the race in, but there were a few people behind me. Yet more
evidence supporting the run/walk approach for slow runners. And I even
felt in better condition this year than last year. Last year I think I was
trying to escape that really annoying runner on my shoulder on single
track and that might have pushed me. This year was so much more pleasant.

I can't think of anything that I could've *realistically* done differently
in training to build the larger base I wanted and peak for this. Not sure
where I could've made up 1.5 min /mi during the race itself. I maintained
some high-end aerobic work throughout most of the winter, but about the
time when I should be attempting to peak is when we have soggy snow, muddy
breakup, closed trails, etc., and rocks or roots for agility runs don't
start appearing until about 2 wks before race. But it's what everyone
deals with. I didn't get enough high-end / LT work in to be able to run at
that effort and negotiate rocks, nor have I before, but in the past, I
couldn't negotiate the trail on the run, period, so run/walk was a
necessity. Interestingly, the RD warned us about not going anaerobic on
the hills and losing coordination for the rocks. (which is almost what I
did about 10 days before race - pushed the hill just a little, then
tripped over many rocks)

I usually do a long run after the race since the trails here are so nice
compared to our local ones, but was sufficiently tired I probably would've
gladly just headed home. Except I had spent so much
time getting my pack setup the day before, drinks mixed, trying some new
arrangements, etc, that there was no way I was going home without doing
at least a little hiking. I ended up hiking / running another 4+ hrs for
some great scenery and a new appreciation for those that do the Crow
Pass race - lots more rocks. Pack worked out great. (And I did take
pictures of this.)

The "race" wasn't good as a race, but it was a good training run, much
better than I thought I could do from a strength / endurance perspective,
although the speed was sadly lacking. The "long run" wasn't quite as much
running as I'd hoped (no way was I going to jump over rocks with full pack
and tired legs), but it was a great day on the trails and I tested some
gear.

Oh, and this was the day I learned to really hate the Garmin 305 I was
using as substitute for my Polar while it was out getting new batteries
(and fixing a cracked case, as it turned out). It ran the 2 workouts
together, and I'm still trying to get them properly separated. I finally
gave up and just did the race report. My Polar arrived home Tues, and it
was so refreshing to have it on today's run. It's sooo much lighter and
easier on the wrist.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Frank Boettcher said:

On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:13:14 GMT, "Tony S." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the
trails.

I don't know, but a great day of running in a beautiful area may beat
a fast time. I'd say you did pretty good.

I train on trails, race on the street. I can never go fast on the
trails, even when I make and effort to do so.

Frank

Thanks, Frank. Yea, that was my thought too.🙂 I'd caught myself a
couple times this spring getting obsessed about duration of run or
whatever and losing sight of why I run. Getting out on the trails for
however long at whatever intensity is what it's about for me when all is
said and done. Training allows me to do it longer. I may post a few pics
from the hike/run after the race. Camera didn't do the scenery justice
(wide angle not wide enough), but it may give folks an idea why trail
runners enjoy trails.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the trails.

The race itself was uneventful. I just ran fairly consistently the
entire way except for one short stretch (maybe 30 yds) with 2 short,
steep hills (maybe 10 ft high, 50-60% slick mud). Duh, didn't even have
"being able to run the bulk of the course" on my radar as an achievable
goal, because of the narrow, twisty, usually not-well-marked (lots of
flagging for race day), rocky nature of about half the trail. It just
kinda happened. I guess something in the strength and endurance
department must be going right. The down side of that is it was the
absolutely slowest time I've ever done the race in, but there were a few
people behind me. Yet more evidence supporting the run/walk approach for
slow runners.

I would not limit the statement to slow runers. All but the elite use
run walk approach to achieve their best time in these type races. As
we all know there are times it makes more sense to power walk an
incline then run it. If one does manage to run it the same or faster
as hiking, the energy loss is disproprotional.

I would say running damn near near all the terrain maybe didn't do
the best for your clock time but is a great example of your progress.
For any given race you will need to determine where the clock fits to
balance the race/walk proportion.

Clock be damned ya done good and on your way to your longer efforts
coming down the road.

-Doug

pithydoug said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Short version: poor performance (1:42:32=PW) but a great day on the trails.

The race itself was uneventful. I just ran fairly consistently the
entire way except for one short stretch (maybe 30 yds) with 2 short,
steep hills (maybe 10 ft high, 50-60% slick mud). Duh, didn't even have
"being able to run the bulk of the course" on my radar as an achievable
goal, because of the narrow, twisty, usually not-well-marked (lots of
flagging for race day), rocky nature of about half the trail. It just
kinda happened. I guess something in the strength and endurance
department must be going right. The down side of that is it was the
absolutely slowest time I've ever done the race in, but there were a few
people behind me. Yet more evidence supporting the run/walk approach for
slow runners.

I would not limit the statement to slow runers. All but the elite use
run walk approach to achieve their best time in these type races. As
we all know there are times it makes more sense to power walk an
incline then run it. If one does manage to run it the same or faster
as hiking, the energy loss is disproprotional.

I would say running damn near near all the terrain maybe didn't do
the best for your clock time but is a great example of your progress.
For any given race you will need to determine where the clock fits to
balance the race/walk proportion.

Clock be damned ya done good and on your way to your longer efforts
coming down the road.

Thanks, Doug. I knew this was a tough race to set as a goal race because
it's so early in the year and is a little technical, but I guess that's
why I made it a goal race (but second to longer run later in summer).
More importantly, it does provide a goal to get butt out of base gear
and start picking up the effort a little more - which I did, just not
enough, and that was limited by snow.

As snapshot in time, I think I had a better base built this winter
(thanks to using full aerobic zones all winter and not falling into
low-heart-rate stuff like last winter), but I just couldn't get enough
peaking in there. While this was a goal race, it was secondary to
building base for longer stuff.

And it was a great day on some nice trails. I had dual hydration tubes
on my long run - sports drink in left, slimfast in right.🙂

In the big picture, I feel like I made the right choices for me.🙂

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml