Old records

Robert Grumbine wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

For World Women:
400 m   47.60 Marita Koch             6 Oct 1985
800 m 1:53.28 Karmila Kratochvilova  26 Jul 1983

<snip>

hmmmmm...... Kratochvilova wasn't (she) a man ??!!!! :-)

martin

In article <[email hidden]>,
Robert Grumbine <[email hidden]> wrote:

Addendum: Going to http://www.usatf.org/statistics/records/view.asp?division=american&location=outdoor%20track%20%26%20field&age=open&sport=LDR
(USATF for US open outdoor track and field records) shows more.
Indeed, for almost every distance on that page, the record is more than 20 years
old. The 2 exceptions (same run) are the men's 200 km and 24 hour record,
which was Rae Clark on 29 Sept 1990)

US Men, records over 20 years old -- long distance running, on track:
15 km 43:39.8 Bill Rodgers 9 Aug 1977
10 mi 49:05 [censored] Beardsley 12 Aug 1982
20 km 58:15.0 Bill Rodgers 9 Aug 1977
1 HR 20,547 m Bill Rodgers 9 Aug 1977
25 km 1:14:11.8 Bill Rodgers 21 Feb 1979
30 km 1:31:49 Bill Rodgers 21 Feb 1979
20 mi 1:44:56.4 Bill Clark 13 Feb 1971
2 HR 36,552 m Bill Clark 13 Feb 1971
50 km 2:52:47.5 Barney Klecker 15 Nov 1981
50 mi 5:21:21 Ken Moffitt 9 Sep 1978
100 km 7:00:12 Bernd Heinrich 24 Aug 1985 (Readers of Dot's may recognize this name :-)
100 mi 12:27:00 Bernd Heinrich 19 May 1984
12 HR 154.000 km Bernd Heinrich 19 May 1984

US Women, Records over 20 years old (again, most of them)
15 km 53:06 Nancy Conz 25 Jun 1981
10 mi 55:58 Nancy Conz 25 Jun 1981
1 HR 17,273 m Nancy Conz 25 Jun 1981
20 km 1:22:24 Maxine Johnson 3 Oct 1982
25 km 1:44:06 Maxine Johnson 3 Oct 1982
2 HR 29,369 m Maxine Johnson 3 Oct 1981
30 km 2:09:23 Teri Gerber 13 Jul 1986
144 HR 735,470 m Lorna Richey 2 Jul 1984
-- no record is listed for men at 144 hours.

On the road, US Men's records over 20 years:
8 km 22:04 Alberto Salazar 4 Jan 1981
10 km 27:48 Mark Nenow 2 Mar 1985
10 mi 46:13 Greg Meyer 27 Mar 1983 (see above Beardsley's track time)
30 km 1:31:49 Phil Coppess 6 Oct 1985
50 mi 4:51:25 Barney Klecker 5 Oct 1980

Women on the road:
50 km 3:13:51 Janis Klecker 17 Dec 1983

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

steve common said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

Don't forget the decline in the interest of track among the younger
runners. The US falls behind in international track especially in the
distance events. Where a generation ago track was more popular (at
least thats what I hear from my fokes) than when I was in HS, I
believe its even less popular now than 10-15 years ago. This can be
due to the increase in popularity of (American) football, basketball
and soccer (football). I believe baseball is experiencing a similar
(although not to the same extent) decline.

John

beardless martin said:

Bob G wrote:

<snip>> For World Women:

Quoted message said:

400 m 47.60 Marita Koch 6 Oct 1985
800 m 1:53.28 Karmila Kratochvilova 26 Jul 1983

hmmmmm...... Kratochvilova wasn't (she) a man ??!!!! :-)

And while Koch retained a more feminine appearance, there's no doubt
she was also the beneficiary of an "enhanced" hormonal balance. I
recently mentioned her at the bottom of this post:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.running/msg/daa88dcbf18f80ca

"Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Addendum: Going to
http://www.usatf.org/statistics/records/view.asp?division=american&location=outdoor%20track%20%26%20field&age=open&sport=LDR
(USATF for US open outdoor track and field records) shows more.
Indeed, for almost every distance on that page, the record is more than 20
years
old. The 2 exceptions (same run) are the men's 200 km and 24 hour record,
which was Rae Clark on 29 Sept 1990)

Quoted message said:

100 km 7:00:12 Bernd Heinrich 24 Aug 1985 (Readers of Dot's may
recognize this name :-)

Heinrich's book said he ran 6:38 at age 40 in Chicago in the early 80's or
so (misplaced the book, but found a mention or two on the 'net). This
supposedly is still the world masters record...

Quoted message said:

144 HR 735,470 m Lorna Richey 2 Jul 1984
-- no record is listed for men at 144 hours.

This is the 6-day race. Yiannis Kouros (Lives in Australia -- not an
american) broke the world record at well over age 40 in '05 with an amazing
1036km (642 miles -- 107 miles/day).

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

steve common said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

Indeed -- I think the mile is the only "imperial" distance the IAAF maintains
records for. Hard to read much into long standing records for obscure distances
or road races (besides half-marathon and marathon).

But it is interesting to note that records for distances like 800m, 1500m,
etc have stood for quite a while. I think some of the USA youth records lasted
a while too (thinking of Ryun and Lindgren in particular)

Would also be interesting to see the all-time lists.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

In article <[email hidden]>,

steve common said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

The 20k records seem to be set, typically, en route to HM records.
Similarly, the 25k and 30k records seem to be set on the same day.
Now that the men's 1 hour is longer than HM, it'll probably be a
long-standing record.

Quoted message said:

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

Wolhuter's 1000m was the world record for quite a while, iirc, which
is part of that story.

Certainly distances fall out of favor and such. Still, a look at the
1000 m top 10 for the US shows a recent elite (ca. 2000) hitting the
list, but still well off Wolhuter's mark. With the mark on the mile
having dropped about 7 seconds since Wolhuter did his 1000m, and
the 1500 going down similarly, I'd have thought a miler prepping
for serious competition might wind up (sometime over the past 30+
years) putting in a strong 1000m time. But, then, the US mile
record has only dropped about 3 seconds in that time (from Jim Ryun to
Steve Scott, Jim Spivey being only other US runner under 3:50 until
we imported Lagat, iirc)

Looking at his pace, about 53.2 seconds per quarter, means he
passed 800m in about 1:46.4 -- itself a mark that we have few guys
reaching in any given year.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article <[email hidden]>,

runsrealfast said:

steve common said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

Don't forget the decline in the interest of track among the younger
runners. The US falls behind in international track especially in the
distance events. Where a generation ago track was more popular (at
least thats what I hear from my fokes) than when I was in HS, I
believe its even less popular now than 10-15 years ago. This can be
due to the increase in popularity of (American) football, basketball
and soccer (football). I believe baseball is experiencing a similar
(although not to the same extent) decline.

I'm surprised at comments of track being formerly popular (even
as a relative comment vs. today). I ran track near the peak of
one of the 'peaks in popularity'. It was slightly more popular
than chess club, less so than mathletes, and less popular than any
other sport (except cross country -- that was the bottom of the
barrel).

One thing, though, to not cloud is the notion that the US, per se,
ever had _not_ been behind on distance. For the last 40 years, the
US has not been a significant place on the international stage for
producing distance runners. (We've imported some very good ones
lately, but they didn't learn their running here.)

List of US men to hold WR in last 40 years:
Jim Ryun, mile and maybe half mile/800
Alberto Salazar? (marathon may not be called 'world record', and
some other questions)

That's it. Olympic gold medals:
Billy Mills 10k 1964
Frank Shorter marathon 1972
Dave Wottle 800m 1972

.... and Mills is now more than 40 years ago. (I'd put more
work in to a post on our 'former glory' some years ago, and
his remarkable race was then less than 40 years old.)

These are very short lists. If I made it 30 years, they'd be
empty, and we'd be left looking for US men who had managed to
make the finals of world competitions. The list of those who
had medalled, any medal, at Worlds or Olympics would be, again,
very short. (According to an article on him, Jim Spivey is
the last one to do so, a bronze at worlds in ca. 1987.)

There's no 'golden age of US distance running'. There were
a few individuals who managed to win major competitions,
but they were singular, not tip of any iceberg of US strength
in distance running. While Wottle won the 800, Wolhuter was
favored over him -- only time in the last 40 years the US had
two men who were credible medal threats at the same distance
at the same time.

Baseball, on the other hand, does seem to have a real decline.
It really did used to be popular, and now isn't so much.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

steve common said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

One factor for these long-standing records is that some distances have
fallen out of favour for one reason or another. So you don't get so many
elites trying to do them seriously.

Eg, 20k and 25k races are few and far between over here - with maybe one
or two international level events only per year - since the "new" HM
distance finally took off and effectively killed them both off.

I think the 1000m got "lost" between 800 and 1500 in a similar way at
world level - though it's still a popular amateur distance - but the mile
is still significant enough to US and other "Imperial" users for the elite
to still want to hack at it.

Indeed -- I think the mile is the only "imperial" distance the IAAF maintains
records for. Hard to read much into long standing records for obscure distances
or road races (besides half-marathon and marathon).

But it is interesting to note that records for distances like 800m, 1500m,
etc have stood for quite a while. I think some of the USA youth records lasted
a while too (thinking of Ryun and Lindgren in particular)

Chapa's HS record for 10k still stands from the mid-70s.

The mile is the only imperial distance world records are kept for by
the IAAF. But 1000 and 2000 m are kept internationally, as are 20, 25,
30 km.

Quoted message said:

Would also be interesting to see the all-time lists.

If you don't mind missing the last 3-4 years, the Track and Field News
site has such lists. Lot of the top 10 times in the US, even where the
record is more recent, are still 20+ years old. Chapa's 3000m former
record is still about 5th.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Robert Grumbine) said:

Talking about old timers like Spivey and Chapa, and, earlier, the
even older timer Wolhuter, put me in mind of old records. I'd checked
at one point, something like 20 years after the fact, that Wolhuter
still held the US record for the 1000m. But, talking about Chapa (one
time holder of the 3000m record) and Spivey (holder of the 2000m record),
brought the question of old records back to mind.

Wolhuter still holds the US record, now over 30 years old. The time
is (just) less than 2 seconds off the current world record (2:11.96 by
Noah Ngeny, 5 Sep 1999), as opposed to the world record for the mile,
which has fallen by about 6 seconds in that time, US mile record being
over 4 seconds off the current world mark.

For US women, records over 20 years old are:
400 m 48.83 Valerie Brisco-Brooks 6 Aug 1984
1500 m 3:57.12 Mary Slaney 26 Jul 1983
Mile 4:16.71 Mary Slaney 21 Aug 1985
2000 m 5:32.70 Mary Slaney 3 Aug 1984
3000 m 8:25.83 Mary Slaney 7 Sep 1984

For US men
800 m 1:42.60 Johnny Gray 28 Aug 1985
1000 m 2:13.90 Richard Wolhuter 20 Jul 1974
1500 m 3:29.77 Sydney Maree 1985
-- broken by Bernard Lagat, whom I didn't realize was a US citizen,
with 3:29.40 on 28 Aug 2005
Mile 3:47.69 Steve Scott 7 Jul 1982
2000 m 4:52.44 Jim Spivey 15 Sep 1987
(Lagat has another 5 months to get this before it, too, reaches the
20 year mark).

For World Women:
400 m 47.60 Marita Koch 6 Oct 1985
800 m 1:53.28 Karmila Kratochvilova 26 Jul 1983

World Men
25 km 1:13:55.80 Toshihiko Seko 22 Mar 1981
30 km 1:29:18.80 Toshihiko Seko 22 Mar 1981

(The US listings didn't include 20/25/30 km or 1 hour that the
world listings did.)

(According to my snarf fromhttp://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0112922.html,
and related pages, noted as correct through Sept 6, 2006 -- more recent
than the Track and Field News page I found, which was 2003).
--
Robert Grumbinehttp://www.radix.net/~bobg/Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

I don't know who is the hero of running in the real world, but in high
school Prefontaine has to be the most famous runner. Why is this when
he holds no records?

Quoted message said:

One thing, though, to not cloud is the notion that the US, per se,
ever had _not_ been behind on distance. For the last 40 years, the
US has not been a significant place on the international stage for
producing distance runners. (We've imported some very good ones
lately, but they didn't learn their running here.)

That's why I'm here to beat the Ethiopians and Kenyans lol....I'm
decent and I plan on running college we'll see what happens. You also
have to keep in mind Running (at least in high school) has no "glory"
compared to basketball, football, etc. I disagree though, because
unlike other sports the runner fights themselves more than anyone else
and if they beat themselves they can conquer anything.

Gary said:

I don't know who is the hero of running in the real world, but in high
school Prefontaine has to be the most famous runner. Why is this when
he holds no records?

He held the US records across a broad range of distances.

He did pretty well in the US, but nothing huge on the international stage. Probably
one of the most overrated runners of all time. Died at 24, would have been a
serious contender for an olympic or world championship medal if he was around
longer.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gary said:

Quoted message said:

One thing, though, to not cloud is the notion that the US, per se,
ever had _not_ been behind on distance. For the last 40 years, the
US has not been a significant place on the international stage for
producing distance runners. (We've imported some very good ones
lately, but they didn't learn their running here.)

That's why I'm here to beat the Ethiopians and Kenyans lol....I'm
decent and I plan on running college we'll see what happens. You also
have to keep in mind Running (at least in high school) has no "glory"
compared to basketball, football, etc. I disagree though, because
unlike other sports the runner fights themselves more than anyone else
and if they beat themselves they can conquer anything.

I agree with your comment; this was one of the things I enjoyed about
my fellow distance runners in HS. Also applies to the adults. But it's
an internal thing -- only you know what battles you're fighting -- not
a spectator thing. I still enjoy watching a good well-fought race,
but I'm sure I miss a lot of the battles. People who have never run
distance tend not to realize that there are any battles aside from
first place, and they only (feel they) need the last 10 seconds of
the race to see that.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

Gary said:

I don't know who is the hero of running in the real world, but in high
school Prefontaine has to be the most famous runner. Why is this when
he holds no records?

He held the US records across a broad range of distances.

He did pretty well in the US, but nothing huge on the international
stage. Probably
one of the most overrated runners of all time. Died at 24, would have been a
serious contender for an olympic or world championship medal if he was around
longer.

His 4th, with a medal being expected before the race, at an
actual Olympics, I'd have thought meant he was a serious contender
even then. Better international placement, anyhow, than Bob Kennedy
managed.

But yes, we go nuts when there's a distance guy who could even make
the finals in international competition. It helped in Pre's case that
he was also colorful. But 'able to make the finals' is a long way
from serious medal contender, and a single guy managing to do so is
a long way from US being competitive on the international scene.

Gary: Do you mean HS records? I wasn't looking at those listings.
Ryun's record at the mile fell to Webb recently (a good 40 or so year
run). I think ?Lindgren's 2 mile still stands (from late 60's).
Chapa's HS 10k still stands from 75ish. He may have beaten Pre's
5k HS mark as well; it was Pre's 3000m US record he beat later.
Records are made to be broken -- that's the reason I remark on
Wolhuter's marks still standing, and these other long-term marks.

But one thing about looking at HS marks, and thinking about your
own route to beating the best of the best ... HS performance isn't
a great predictor of eventual adult performance. Two of the most
successful US distance runners were Frank Shorter and Bob Kennedy,
and neither was outstanding in HS. (Very good, 4:30ish mile, but
4:30ish didn't even qualify for my state meet when I was in track.)

The thing is to develop your speed some, develop good form and
understanding of your effort levels, and the like. Physical
maturity will take you a fair distance from there. If you keep
at it, with good progressive training loads with good form and
control, it can take you quite a long way.

Having mentioned your future competitors in another post, I'll
point out to you that you're getting started at about the time
that they do as well. (Kenyans that is, I don't know about the
Ethiopians.) I was talking to a now master's runner from Kenya
about how they recruit, how young they start their running.
Common mythology is thta they start very young. In fact, they
don't look, he said, at kids for distance running until they're
16. What, precisely, he meant by 'look at' (maybe that meant
cranking up to 70 mile weeks, maybe it meant don't even bother
looking at any times) I don't really know. He seemed to be
more towards the latter.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Robert Grumbine) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

On 2007-04-13, Gary <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know who is the hero of running in the real world, but in high
school Prefontaine has to be the most famous runner. Why is this when
he holds no records?

Quoted message said:

He held the US records across a broad range of distances.

Quoted message said:

He did pretty well in the US, but nothing huge on the international
stage. Probably
one of the most overrated runners of all time. Died at 24, would have been a
serious contender for an olympic or world championship medal if he was around
longer.

His 4th, with a medal being expected before the race, at an
actual Olympics, I'd have thought meant he was a serious contender
even then. Better international placement, anyhow, than Bob Kennedy
managed.

But yes, we go nuts when there's a distance guy who could even make
the finals in international competition. It helped in Pre's case that
he was also colorful. But 'able to make the finals' is a long way
from serious medal contender, and a single guy managing to do so is
a long way from US being competitive on the international scene.

Gary: Do you mean HS records? I wasn't looking at those listings.
Ryun's record at the mile fell to Webb recently (a good 40 or so year
run). I think ?Lindgren's 2 mile still stands (from late 60's).
Chapa's HS 10k still stands from 75ish. He may have beaten Pre's
5k HS mark as well; it was Pre's 3000m US record he beat later.
Records are made to be broken -- that's the reason I remark on
Wolhuter's marks still standing, and these other long-term marks.

But one thing about looking at HS marks, and thinking about your
own route to beating the best of the best ... HS performance isn't
a great predictor of eventual adult performance. Two of the most
successful US distance runners were Frank Shorter and Bob Kennedy,
and neither was outstanding in HS. (Very good, 4:30ish mile, but
4:30ish didn't even qualify for my state meet when I was in track.)

The thing is to develop your speed some, develop good form and
understanding of your effort levels, and the like. Physical
maturity will take you a fair distance from there. If you keep
at it, with good progressive training loads with good form and
control, it can take you quite a long way.

Having mentioned your future competitors in another post, I'll
point out to you that you're getting started at about the time
that they do as well. (Kenyans that is, I don't know about the
Ethiopians.) I was talking to a now master's runner from Kenya
about how they recruit, how young they start their running.
Common mythology is thta they start very young. In fact, they
don't look, he said, at kids for distance running until they're
16. What, precisely, he meant by 'look at' (maybe that meant
cranking up to 70 mile weeks, maybe it meant don't even bother
looking at any times) I don't really know. He seemed to be
more towards the latter.

--

I know the best High School Students sometimes burn out in later
running, but I also know not every decent runner becomes a great
runner. Why do the Kenyans and Ethiopians do well in distance? The
mountains and high red blood cells? A better desire to become great?

In article <[email hidden]>,
Gary <[email hidden]> wrote:

[large snip to the new topic]

Quoted message said:

I know the best High School Students sometimes burn out in later
running, but I also know not every decent runner becomes a great
runner. Why do the Kenyans and Ethiopians do well in distance? The
mountains and high red blood cells? A better desire to become great?

This is a perennial here, and you can check out old threads on
it if you want more details/voices. My own take: natural talent
and a lot of hard and intelligent work. It helps that distance
running isn't the 73rd (to make up a number) choice of sport. (It
also isn't first, soccer is.)

The talent question is already in the bank for you. What you have
control over is the hard and intelligent work, pursued over enough
years to develop that talent as far as it will go.

For all that the success of the Kenyans has been known for quite
a while, very few Americans follow similar training programs. One
of the few who did, Bob Kennedy, did very well (at least for an
American -- broke 13:00 for 5k, and still holds the US record).

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Robert Grumbine) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gary <[email hidden]> wrote:

[large snip to the new topic]

Quoted message said:

I know the best High School Students sometimes burn out in later
running, but I also know not every decent runner becomes a great
runner. Why do the Kenyans and Ethiopians do well in distance? The
mountains and high red blood cells? A better desire to become great?

This is a perennial here, and you can check out old threads on
it if you want more details/voices. My own take: natural talent
and a lot of hard and intelligent work. It helps that distance
running isn't the 73rd (to make up a number) choice of sport. (It
also isn't first, soccer is.)

The talent question is already in the bank for you. What you have
control over is the hard and intelligent work, pursued over enough
years to develop that talent as far as it will go.

For all that the success of the Kenyans has been known for quite
a while, very few Americans follow similar training programs. One
of the few who did, Bob Kennedy, did very well (at least for an
American -- broke 13:00 for 5k, and still holds the US record).

--
Robert Grumbinehttp://www.radix.net/~bobg/Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Well whats their training techiniques I wish to become great and I'm
still young enough to have the chance.

Quoted message said:

--
Robert Grumbinehttp://www.radix.net/~bobg/Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

just so you know i bookmarked you website and based on the Navy Seal
fitness guide your heartrate maximum and rest is very accurate.