Bull Run 50

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Looks like it might be a repeat of last year. The weather calls
showers the next couple of days and a high of 48 and rain on Saturday.

I'm putting screws in my shoes between key strokes and trying anticipate
the best and worst weather conditions. Can't do [censored] about the mud but
I can stay try and warm with proper clothes.

Quoted message said:

Good luck Doug and crew.

Merci!! Jimmy, John and Jacque from the winter group are the others.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Looks like it might be a repeat of last year. The weather calls
showers the next couple of days and a high of 48 and rain on Saturday.

I'm putting screws in my shoes between key strokes and trying anticipate
the best and worst weather conditions. Can't do [censored] about the mud but
I can stay try and warm with proper clothes.

Quoted message said:

Good luck Doug and crew.

Merci!! Jimmy, John and Jacque from the winter group are the others.

-Doug

Yea, good luck to all!! Sounds like you really like mud bogging.😉 Have
to put you with our ATV'ers 😉

Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel roads.

Breakup is here, at least at lower elevations, so it's time to find the
gravel and fields until things dry out. I can see grass in my lawn now
🙂 although some snow still and still very frozen. May still see some
snow flurries. And I did run with my uninsulated hydration bladder last
week.🙂 (little things in life can make one happpy)

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Looks like it might be a repeat of last year. The weather calls showers
the next couple of days and a high of 48 and rain on Saturday.

I'm putting screws in my shoes between key strokes and trying anticipate
the best and worst weather conditions. Can't do [censored] about the mud but I
can stay try and warm with proper clothes.

Quoted message said:

Good luck Doug and crew.

Merci!! Jimmy, John and Jacque from the winter group are the others.

-Doug

Good luck brother! Sure don't envy you those conditions. You've got some
real regulars out of those 3. John and Jimmy going for 8 hours again? 😉

-Tony

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2RbTh.9660$FC5.1849@trndny06...

Quoted message said:

Good luck brother! Sure don't envy you those conditions. You've got
some real regulars out of those 3. John and Jimmy going for 8 hours
again? 😉

Yup, both of them will going balls to the wall, mud and all. Since I
suck in mud I won't threaten to pass them mid race again. Gotta be nice
to Jimmy he doing a piece on old [censored] still running and I'm
included. He must be desperate for sports articles. 😉

-Doug

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote:
Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
roads.

Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the
garbage at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the
lawn and tar the driveway. 😉

Quoted message said:

Breakup is here, at least at lower elevations, so it's time to find
the gravel and fields until things dry out. I can see grass in my lawn
now 🙂 although some snow still and still very frozen. May still see
some snow flurries. And I did run with my uninsulated hydration
bladder last week.🙂 (little things in life can make one happpy)

It's still 30-35F and we just got some snow today although it melted as
fast as it fell.

Weird year!!!! I'm sure it has nothing to do with global warming since
our leader says we don't have no stinkin GW and wouldn't fib to us, now
would he? Rhetorical.

-Doug

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote:
Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
roads.

Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the garbage
at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the lawn and tar
the driveway. 😉

I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of snow but ice
or crust.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Breakup is here, at least at lower elevations, so it's time to find the
gravel and fields until things dry out. I can see grass in my lawn now 🙂
although some snow still and still very frozen. May still see some snow
flurries. And I did run with my uninsulated hydration bladder last
week.🙂 (little things in life can make one happpy)

It's still 30-35F and we just got some snow today although it melted as
fast as it fell.

Trail reports from www.viewsfromthetop.com are mixed, but mostly it seems
there's not much under 3000' in the Catskills. Though much of January was
nice for training, this year has been nastier than the last 2 years, by far.
Give us some upper 40's / low 50's at least! Ideal training weather for me
is 60 to 75, though for fast race times cooler is better.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Weird year!!!! I'm sure it has nothing to do with global warming since
our leader says we don't have no stinkin GW and wouldn't fib to us, now
would he? Rhetorical.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

It's still 30-35F and we just got some snow today although it melted as
fast as it fell.

We've been getting in the 40s and barely below (or not) freezing at
night for about 1 wk. 2 wks ago, I was still waiting for temps to get
above 0F before I went running; now I try to get out before too soggy.
IF this keeps up, we may have a rather benign breakup for the trails.
Have even been running with uninsulated cb and the tube not tucked in shirt.

Quoted message said:

Weird year!!!! I'm sure it has nothing to do with global warming since
our leader says we don't have no stinkin GW and wouldn't fib to us, now
would he? Rhetorical.

Yes, indeed. We hear reports of shrinking pack ice for the polar bears
and boats being iced in harbors (Homer, couldn't do fishing derby as
scheduled), crab boats getting caught by ice (not too unusual), and some
animals trapped by ice (I can't remember which or where but I'm thinking
SW AK somewhere and too tired to look).

But the most critical question of all, when will the tripod fall in the
Nenana Ice Classic?

Good luck this weekend to you and your crew.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Tony S. said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote:
Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
roads.

Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the garbage
at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the lawn and tar
the driveway. 😉

I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of snow but ice
or crust.

I haven't used them for mud yet, but I agree their use on snow is just
ice or crust or hardpacked. They don't have enough depth or width for
much snow. My stabilicers (LItes and Sports) provide a little better
traction, but I think snowshoes (if flotation needed) or some crampons
would be better in snow.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>Doug Freese wrote:
>Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
>them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
>roads.

Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the garbage
at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the lawn and tar
the driveway. 😉

I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of snow but
ice or crust.

I haven't used them for mud yet, but I agree their use on snow is just ice
or crust or hardpacked. They don't have enough depth or width for much
snow. My stabilicers (LItes and Sports) provide a little better traction,
but I think snowshoes (if flotation needed) or some crampons would be
better in snow.

It's funny, I always used to enjoy running in snow, but I now realize that
normally in the past my running volume was light in the winter, so I could
get away with it more easily. This year in particular, with more snow than
the last 2 years and a higher training volume, I noticed that my lower legs
in particular, and my knees couldn't handle much running on soft snow, or on
uneven (from footprints) hard snow. That said, the more mild and predictible
irregularity of forrest trails is still generally beneficial several times a
week. It's the unforeseen floating and sliding of the footplant in the snow
that stresses the lower legs and knees. I got another angle on this running
in very squishy mud yesterday - more like snow than trail. My lower legs
felt like they'd been beat up. Running an ultra in deeper mud would mess me
up bigtime.

Snowshoe running on hardpack flat trails might be ok, but where I live it's
almost always nasty hardpack irregular snow and/or ice. Screw shoes are ok
for that, but it's still hard on the body. A few times this year I ran to
and from the hardpack trails with screw shoes and they're not horrible on
roads, but I wouldn't want to run more than a few miles like that. Coming
down a hill into town in screwshoes I felt like a clydesdale.

Great link below, lots of interesting stuff in there for me Dot. I never
would think of Autralia for mountain running, but there's good stuff in
there about running both up and down hills and training ideas. Thanks.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Tony S. said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>Doug Freese wrote:
>>Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
>>them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
>>roads.
>
>Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
>one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the garbage
>at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the lawn and tar
>the driveway. 😉

I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of snow but
ice or crust.

Something I forgot to mention is that the effectiveness of screws or any
of the other devices relative to no attachments depends a lot on what
people are wearing for shoes since some have better tread than others
for some kinds of surfaces. Since Doug wears road shoes, I suspect he
may notice the improvement a lot more than with a trail shoe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't used them for mud yet, but I agree their use on snow is just ice
or crust or hardpacked. They don't have enough depth or width for much
snow. My stabilicers (LItes and Sports) provide a little better traction,
but I think snowshoes (if flotation needed) or some crampons would be
better in snow.

It's funny, I always used to enjoy running in snow, but I now realize that
normally in the past my running volume was light in the winter, so I could
get away with it more easily. This year in particular, with more snow than
the last 2 years and a higher training volume, I noticed that my lower legs
in particular, and my knees couldn't handle much running on soft snow, or on
uneven (from footprints) hard snow.

This is why I struggle with increased volume in winter. AND there's a
changeover period for me where I need to adjust to terra firma in
summer. It's not as bad this year since we had well over a month of
hard-packed snow that was almost like running summer trails, but no
rocks or roots.

Quoted message said:

That said, the more mild and predictible
irregularity of forrest trails is still generally beneficial several times a
week. It's the unforeseen floating and sliding of the footplant in the snow
that stresses the lower legs and knees. I got another angle on this running
in very squishy mud yesterday - more like snow than trail. My lower legs
felt like they'd been beat up. Running an ultra in deeper mud would mess me
up bigtime.

Snowshoe running on hardpack flat trails might be ok,

Ouch. That's like running on concrete. That's why I didn't do much
snowshoe running after the warm spell in Jan. What I like most is a few
inches of loose to firm snow (not hard) on top a base - or a
medium-travelled snowmachine trail. Heavily travelled are hard, lightly
travelled may not have much base. Really loose snow is hard work. I'll
rotate trails depending on conditions and what I'm looking for.

Our mtn single tracks, at least the first 1000ft or so, get used heavily
enough that you can usually hike them with screws or some light traction
device - at least this year where we had good quality snow. Last year, I
think crampons were the way to go, although I did see some people using
them in loose snow. (I knew someone training for Denali, and he was up
and down some of those trails a couple times a week with a pack.)

but where I live it's

Quoted message said:

almost always nasty hardpack irregular snow and/or ice.

Yea, if the trails are walked on by people without flotation devices
(skis, snowshoes, and I'll include fat-tire bikes in there), it can tear
the trails up. I'd been snowshoe grooming our single track most of the
early winter. Then we had a meltdown. I stayed off all the groomed
trails until it got cold again, but when I went back, somebody had
post-holed it while it was soft and it froze that way and stayed that
way for a month, making it almost unhikable. We really need to educate
the dog walkers, not to mention horse folks, more about their impacts on
groomed trails. There's some volunteers that snowmachine groom the
trails in the swamp area and they're pretty good much of the year.

It's a matter of learning what kind of snow works and where the
appropriate trails (groomed by snowmachine, groomed by official groomer
with set tracks, just run over by snowmachines, used lightly or heavily
by non-flotation devices, etc.) are. This is also why I switch foot gear
- running (with, without screws), snowshoes, xc skis - to acommodate the
various conditions. (I even broke down and ran some paved roads this
winter - the strip of snow left in the gutter that's relatively flat so
avoids the crown wasn't too bad.)

Bet you never realized there was so much to winter running 😉

Screw shoes are ok

Quoted message said:

for that, but it's still hard on the body. A few times this year I ran to
and from the hardpack trails with screw shoes and they're not horrible on
roads, but I wouldn't want to run more than a few miles like that. Coming
down a hill into town in screwshoes I felt like a clydesdale.

I don't care to run to my local trails on the pavement. I need the
screws for the trails and some of the icy road patches, but not most of
the route.

I just stopped by my favorite trail head on my way back today and
noticed they have officially closed those trails for breakup now. I've
since found some gravel areas on south-facing slopes that should work.

Quoted message said:

Great link below, lots of interesting stuff in there for me Dot. I never
would think of Autralia for mountain running, but there's good stuff in
there about running both up and down hills and training ideas. Thanks.

Their neighbor, NZ, is quite big on mtn running and had the World Mtn
Trophy race there a couple years ago. Jonathon Wyatt and Melissa Moon
are from NZ.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. wrote:

>"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>>"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>>>Doug Freese wrote:
>>>Now that I've got shoes I can put screws in, one pair just lives with
>>>them. I'll use other shoes for ss running or for roads, even gravel
>>>roads.
>>
>>Since I go through 4-6 pairs a year I always save a few pairs that have
>>one more race in them for mud conditions. Then I drop them in the
>>garbage at the finish line. I still have a few pairs left to mow the
>>lawn and tar the driveway. 😉
>
>I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of snow but
>ice or crust.

Something I forgot to mention is that the effectiveness of screws or any
of the other devices relative to no attachments depends a lot on what
people are wearing for shoes since some have better tread than others for
some kinds of surfaces. Since Doug wears road shoes, I suspect he may
notice the improvement a lot more than with a trail shoe.

Yea, that's true to some extent, though I seem to prefer street shoes for
their fit over trail shoes. I used to get New Balance trail shoes for the
width (I liked the 705's) but with more volume New Balance don't seem to
work for me. I use a variety of mostly street shoes now, but most of my
miles are in Asics 2110 & 2120s. These hold up pretty well on trails and the
grip hasn't been a problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't used them for mud yet, but I agree their use on snow is just
ice or crust or hardpacked. They don't have enough depth or width for
much snow. My stabilicers (LItes and Sports) provide a little better
traction, but I think snowshoes (if flotation needed) or some crampons
would be better in snow.

It's funny, I always used to enjoy running in snow, but I now realize
that normally in the past my running volume was light in the winter, so I
could get away with it more easily. This year in particular, with more
snow than the last 2 years and a higher training volume, I noticed that
my lower legs in particular, and my knees couldn't handle much running on
soft snow, or on uneven (from footprints) hard snow.

This is why I struggle with increased volume in winter. AND there's a
changeover period for me where I need to adjust to terra firma in summer.
It's not as bad this year since we had well over a month of hard-packed
snow that was almost like running summer trails, but no rocks or roots.

No doubt why some focus on skiing or snowshoeing for the consistency.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, the more mild and predictible
irregularity of forrest trails is still generally beneficial several
times a week. It's the unforeseen floating and sliding of the footplant
in the snow that stresses the lower legs and knees. I got another angle
on this running in very squishy mud yesterday - more like snow than
trail. My lower legs felt like they'd been beat up. Running an ultra in
deeper mud would mess me up bigtime.

Snowshoe running on hardpack flat trails might be ok,

Ouch. That's like running on concrete. That's why I didn't do much
snowshoe running after the warm spell in Jan. What I like most is a few
inches of loose to firm snow (not hard) on top a base - or a
medium-travelled snowmachine trail. Heavily travelled are hard, lightly
travelled may not have much base. Really loose snow is hard work. I'll
rotate trails depending on conditions and what I'm looking for.

Our mtn single tracks, at least the first 1000ft or so, get used heavily
enough that you can usually hike them with screws or some light traction
device - at least this year where we had good quality snow. Last year, I
think crampons were the way to go, although I did see some people using
them in loose snow. (I knew someone training for Denali, and he was up and
down some of those trails a couple times a week with a pack.)

Yea hiking is different, but possible under more conidtions.

Quoted message said:

but where I live it's

Quoted message said:

almost always nasty hardpack irregular snow and/or ice.

Yea, if the trails are walked on by people without flotation devices
(skis, snowshoes, and I'll include fat-tire bikes in there), it can tear
the trails up. I'd been snowshoe grooming our single track most of the
early winter. Then we had a meltdown. I stayed off all the groomed
trails until it got cold again, but when I went back, somebody had
post-holed it while it was soft and it froze that way and stayed that
way for a month, making it almost unhikable. We really need to educate
the dog walkers, not to mention horse folks, more about their impacts on
groomed trails. There's some volunteers that snowmachine groom the
trails in the swamp area and they're pretty good much of the year.

It sounds like trail management is an art form up there!

Quoted message said:

It's a matter of learning what kind of snow works and where the
appropriate trails (groomed by snowmachine, groomed by official groomer
with set tracks, just run over by snowmachines, used lightly or heavily
by non-flotation devices, etc.) are. This is also why I switch foot gear
- running (with, without screws), snowshoes, xc skis - to acommodate the
various conditions. (I even broke down and ran some paved roads this
winter - the strip of snow left in the gutter that's relatively flat so
avoids the crown wasn't too bad.)

Bet you never realized there was so much to winter running 😉

Yup, trail running is! My hunch is that many trail runners just stick to
roads for the winter.

Quoted message said:

Screw shoes are ok

Quoted message said:

for that, but it's still hard on the body. A few times this year I ran to
and from the hardpack trails with screw shoes and they're not horrible on
roads, but I wouldn't want to run more than a few miles like that. Coming
down a hill into town in screwshoes I felt like a clydesdale.

I don't care to run to my local trails on the pavement. I need the screws
for the trails and some of the icy road patches, but not most of the
route.

For the length of runs I wanted to do, and the extra stress running on snow
puts upon the body, combined road and snow-trail runs made sense for me.
Plus I have to run up a 500' - 650' hill to get up into a nice local woods,
so that gives me a bit of climb. If I can avoid using the car I do. I can
bike to many local trailheads, which I do in warmer weather. I'm also lucky
in that I have a 4 mile cinder rail-to-trail nearly out my door, and another
nice 5+ mile one right along the river just 2 1/2 miles away that has rugged
singletrack up on the ridge as a loopback option. Most of my midweek stuff
is out-and-backs on the cinder.

Quoted message said:

I just stopped by my favorite trail head on my way back today and noticed
they have officially closed those trails for breakup now. I've since found
some gravel areas on south-facing slopes that should work.

For erosion control right. That makes sense.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Great link below, lots of interesting stuff in there for me Dot. I never
would think of Autralia for mountain running, but there's good stuff in
there about running both up and down hills and training ideas. Thanks.

Their neighbor, NZ, is quite big on mtn running and had the World Mtn
Trophy race there a couple years ago. Jonathon Wyatt and Melissa Moon are
from NZ.

The described couple that won the australian mountain running championships
were orienteerers 😉

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:uJ5Uh.1424$uF1.961@trndny04...

Quoted message said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>I didn't find screws effective in mud really, or on any kind of
>>snow but ice or crust.

Something I forgot to mention is that the effectiveness of screws or
any of the other devices relative to no attachments depends a lot on
what people are wearing for shoes since some have better tread than
others for some kinds of surfaces. Since Doug wears road shoes, I
suspect he may notice the improvement a lot more than with a trail
shoe.

Yea, that's true to some extent, though I seem to prefer street shoes
for their fit over trail shoes. I used to get New Balance trail shoes
for the width (I liked the 705's) but with more volume New Balance
don't seem to work for me. I use a variety of mostly street shoes now,
but most of my miles are in Asics 2110 & 2120s. These hold up pretty
well on trails and the grip hasn't been a problem.

I love the 20nn but they really suck in mud and as Dot said, why I put
screws in them. I could try to find a more formidable trail shoe for
those few muddy runs but its another make/model that I have test out. I
much prefer to take the model that has been proven over time and
distance and just add some screws. The screws do not affect the ride.

-Doug