Training with Power

Originally posted by tomUK, i responded with >>

I decided to fork out some cash an buy Tacx's new Flow turbo trainer.

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let us all know what it's like. i've not seen one yet

Usually on my training rides I use a Heart rate monitor. Now I have a power meter (as to the accuracy of it - that I'm not sure - but it's all relative) and would like to know how how to train with power as opposed to heart rate.

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in a similar manner to training with HR. First off though it would definitely be worth doing some testing to see how your fitness is. Over a few separate days, for those aren't contra indicated to do such maximal testing i'd suggest a maximal aerobic power test (see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern) and a performance trial (i usually suggest 16.1 km TT).

I've read in a few places that training with power is more productive than with heart rate. Why is this if I may ask?

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because power is what moves you down the road/track/trail etc. power output is the sum of all the resistive forces that you must overcome to go at a given velocity under given conditions. HR on the other hand can vary even under the same conditions and is dependent in part on power produced

Also, I would like to know where I can find power-based workouts. Obviously the workout is dependant upon what I'm aiming for. My plan is to take 2 weeks holiday next year and ride 8-10 stages of the tour-de-france. A couple of my pals are I want to achieve this in the shortest time possible. Hence I know I need lots of miles under my belt, but can someone give me specifics? I know I will need to spend some serious hours on the bike in training to get as many miles as possible in but what HR % or power do I need to be aiming for.

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you need to increase your ability to ride for very long periods (i.e., just getting used to being on the bike for 6, 7, 8 hours at a time). you also need to increase your LT power, and power at VO2 max

I've heard training with power is pretty much impossible, and therefore would like to know how power helps develop you.

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training with power is impossible? What makes you say that? I've trained with power since 95/96, and do the same with the majority of riders that i coach.

Ric

Ric -

Thanks for the reply. I did a MAP test last Sunday. Although I wasn't fully rested I managed to push out 360W. My maximum HR during the test was 177bpm. My actually max HR (or be it the highest I've ever managed to achieve - about 4 months ago) is 184bpm.

The reason why I made the comment on it being impossible to train with power is due to reading somewhere (I think it was a Carmicheal article printed in Serious cycling by Dr Ed Burke), that power fluctuates greatly and so it is very hard to keep a constant figure when on the road (or trainer) - you end up chasing peaks and troughs. Heart rate however doesn't raise and lower in such a drastic fashion.

My question was probably phrased wrongly. How can I improve my power (for climbing) using my turbo at home, bearing in mind I only have a HR monitor when on the road?

In other words, can I use my HR monitor to target power gains. If so, how?

Hope this makes sense!

Cheers,
Tom.

Maybe I should have just asked; how do I combine power and HR during workouts!

Clarity is power...and that's what I'm hoping to get more of!

Originally posted by tomUK, i responded with >>
Ric -

Thanks for the reply. I did a MAP test last Sunday. Although I wasn't fully rested I managed to push out 360W. My maximum HR during the test was 177bpm. My actually max HR (or be it the highest I've ever managed to achieve - about 4 months ago) is 184bpm.

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i've no idea how accurate the Flow is so wouldn't be able to say if this is a good test or not. however, if you're around 70ish kg, then this would put you at ~ 2nd/3rd cat level in RR (with that power)

The reason why I made the comment on it being impossible to train with power is due to reading somewhere (I think it was a Carmicheal article printed in Serious cycling by Dr Ed Burke), that power fluctuates greatly and so it is very hard to keep a constant figure when on the road (or trainer) - you end up chasing peaks and troughs. Heart rate however doesn't raise and lower in such a drastic fashion.

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power is quite variable when on the road, but not on the trainer. however, i'd never ask anyone to keep a constant figure (e.g., 220 W) when on the road (or inside). Firstly, i'd suggest a range (see the article), which would be fine tuned with percieved exertion and secondly, biological variation will alter the power you can put out, as would fatigue, rest, nutrition etc.

My question was probably phrased wrongly. How can I improve my power (for climbing) using my turbo at home, bearing in mind I only have a HR monitor when on the road?

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long climbs would be trained with longish intervals (e.g., 15 to 30 mins at zone 4) and shortish hills with short intervals (~ 4mins) at zones 5 to 6

In other words, can I use my HR monitor to target power gains.

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as mentioned HR can vary at the same power due to various factors.

ric

Ric -

I'm not too sure how acurate the flow is either. It can be calibrate. This calibration is done by gradually riding to a speed of 25km/h then the system tells you to stop - at which point you stop pedalling. It then measures the time it takes to 'brake' till the wheel has stopped spinning and adds an appropriate factor to ensure accuracy. How accurate this is, I'm not honestly sure.

What I can't quite grasp about power training is the advantage it offers over heart rate monitoring. I understand, for example that one day you may produce 300W at 160bpm and another day you may only be able to put out 280W for that same heart rate (due to lack of rest, poor nutrition, or temp/humidity factors, etc), therefore in this example would heart rate based training not prove to be a better gauge, as if I were to shoot for 300W in the latter example I might find my HR figure at 170bpm and therefore I would be firstly, hitting past the LT and also working too hard?

I understand that power is a good assesment of fitness level, but I would have thought that Heart rate was the best figure to go by when actually training.

There are lots of other areas I would like to go into in this post regarding power and how to use it to measure overtraining, poor nutrition, etc...but I best leave that for another time!

Cheers.

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Originally posted by tomUK
What I can't quite grasp about power training is the advantage it offers over heart rate monitoring. I understand, for example that one day you may produce 300W at 160bpm and another day you may only be able to put out 280W for that same heart rate (due to lack of rest, poor nutrition, or temp/humidity factors, etc), therefore in this example would heart rate based training not prove to be a better gauge, as if I were to shoot for 300W in the latter example I might find my HR figure at 170bpm and therefore I would be firstly, hitting past the LT and also working too hard?

The advantage is that it makes training more accurate. HR can vary for any number of reasons, so one day doing intervals are HR=170bpm might actually have you working at 270W, and another day the same HR might only result in 250W of power. Effectively the 250W session is (almost) a waste of time since it isn't training the energy system you intended, and was too easy to have any effect. Basically wasted time. Similarly some days your HR might be very supressed and you are working out at 280W and blow badly during the intervals. You might wonder why, decide to take some days off, when really it's because you were working too hard where your HR looked fine.

There is also the 'pacing' advantage. You can ride intervals at, say, 270W from the first few seconds right until the end. With heart rate you might be directed to ride at HR=170bpm, but you must ride at a perceived exertion for 2-3minutes until your heart rate rises to and settles at this level. Most people don't do this and start off way too hard (300W+) and HR shoots up to and past 170bpm and they then slow down to 240-250W just to get HR back down to 170bpm. As you can imagine, this is not optimum for training the system that 270W stresses. Most of the time you would be training above it then too far below it to spend much quality time at 270W.

PS: all the power/HR levels are just examples, not suggested training levels 🙂

TTer -

Right. I think I'm with you guys now.

Now putting this theory into practice;

Every thursday I do a 2 hour session (either indoor or outside, depending on the weather), this consists of 5 intervals (each 3 minutes long, and with 3 minutes of recovery between them), in heart rate zone 80%+. The rest of the 2 hours is spent at 65-70% of MHR.

Now I have this fantastic new power meter, how would you suggest I use the power meter to improve my VO2 max and LT?

I have been doing this workout for 4 months now. Your point becomes clear on this now, although I have been keeping my heart rate at 80%+ for these intervals my power could have dropped without me even knowing it. There I am training hard but without any real feedback.

Incidently, where is the point when you 'call it a day' while interval training with power? I mean, trying to kick out, for example 320W during a set of 5 intervals may feel like hell one day. How do you know if your just being lazy (i.e. feeling a little bit down - mentally), are hungry or just plainly fatigued and therefore time to knock it on the head for the day?

Thanks for all the advice. At this rate, I will be following Ulrich up the Alps next year (I wish)!.

Cheers.

Managed to get the quote from serious cycling:

'Watching your wattage during the course of a ride is not very useful.Wattage fluctuates quickly and often; heart rate is a much better gauge of workload during a workout. Power becomes useful when you are sitting in your living room after the workout.'

-Chris Carmichael. (Serious Cycling, 2nd Edition. Edmund R. Burke, PHD).

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Originally posted by tomUK
Managed to get the quote from serious cycling:

'Watching your wattage during the course of a ride is not very useful.Wattage fluctuates quickly and often; heart rate is a much better gauge of workload during a workout. Power becomes useful when you are sitting in your living room after the workout.'

-Chris Carmichael. (Serious Cycling, 2nd Edition. Edmund R. Burke, PHD).

Yes, CC/CTS aren't too hot on power. Chris Carmichael seems to think it's only useful retrospectively. I'm sure he'll get some sense soon and rethink his position 😄

Power isn't very useful for endurance riding, but it's perfect for interval training outdoors or indoors. Outdoors the power will fluctutate more due to wind buffeting you, slight changes in road grade, etc.. but it's relatively easy to hit a required power level +/-20-30W. Indoors on a trainer it's even easier to dial-in on a power level for intervals of 30seconds +. This ensures you are working at the correct intensity to elicit a particular load/improvement of a specific energy system.

I use HR to govern endurance rides, but also cap max power at 250W (a mix of power/HR). If you only use HR it's easy to hammer above TT-power (ie. into VO2max interval range) for 20-50seconds and not have your HR respond in time so you think you're staying in zone 2. When you analyse power though you might find you spend a significant amount of time above TT-power (like 10-15minutes), not a good idea if it's an endurance or recovery ride and you're planning to specifically train TT-power the next day with intervals.

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Originally posted by TTer
I use HR to govern endurance rides, but also cap max power at 250W (a mix of power/HR). If you only use HR it's easy to hammer above TT-power (ie. into VO2max interval range) for 20-50seconds and not have your HR respond in time so you think you're staying in zone 2. When you analyse power though you might find you spend a significant amount of time above TT-power (like 10-15minutes), not a good idea if it's an endurance or recovery ride and you're planning to specifically train TT-power the next day with intervals.

I see no reason why you can't prescribe intensity for endurance rides with power. Of course it varies, but i don't see this as a problem. There's also no reason to cap it so low. For example, if i'm set an endurance session, i'd have a power range for the flat sections (e.g., 170 to 230 W) and another for the hills (e.g., 320 to 380 W). This being no different in principle to saying 150 to 155 b/min on the flat and 175 to 185 b/min uphill. as you accelerate out of a corner or from a stop power may peak quite high but as this is only for a second or two it won't make any difference, so i 'ignore' these readings.

Ric

Ric/Anyone -

I did your test described at http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern on my friends bike whom has a SRM power meter.

I started at 160W and increase the power at a rate of 20W per minute. At the end of the test I managed to dig deep and push 420W out. my heart rate at this stage was 179bpm (max - as tested 3 months ago is 184).

Is this a good result?

I am quite with this. After the test I workout for an hour at 170W-180W on my flow trainer. Working with watts is much more enjoyable as you don't have to consistantly sit there and make sure you are staying in zone - if your cadance or power to the pedal drops the magnetic brake is increased. It was just a nice change not to sit and watch my heart rate - which often can just suddenly decide to dip.

Well, thanks for listening. Time to go down the pub, sink a few buds and get that balti in. Good work!

P.s. the girlfriend was trying to encourage me with her...'you know you are stronger than lance talk'...
I'm like 'yeah, right bull-poo'.
Cheers,
Tom.

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Originally posted by tomUK
Ric/Anyone -

I did your test described at http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern on my friends bike whom has a SRM power meter.

I started at 160W and increase the power at a rate of 20W per minute. At the end of the test I managed to dig deep and push 420W out. my heart rate at this stage was 179bpm (max - as tested 3 months ago is 184).

Is this a good result?

is the 420 W, the average of the final 60-secs or just a peak that you hit? With the protocol i use (in the article above), i average the final 60-secs to arrive at MAP.

Is the 420 W good? Yes, that's a good result, but in part dependent upon your mass (if your mass is 60 kg it's very high, and if you mass is 100 kg, it's low).

Also, is your friends SRM calibrated correctly? If it's an Amateur version especially, it requires constant calibration with a known certified mass to ensure the slope and offset are correct

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I am quite with this. After the test I workout for an hour at 170W-180W on my flow trainer.

you may not have gone to max if you were able to exercise afterwards, i.e., there maybe more left with the right encouragement. typically, after cooling off and having an energy drink, most people can't do anything after a MAP test (other than collapse into a chair).

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Working with watts is much more enjoyable as you don't have to consistantly sit there and make sure you are staying in zone - if your cadance or power to the pedal drops the magnetic brake is increased.

that's the 'ergometer' facility on the Flow, rather than power per se.

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It was just a nice change not to sit and watch my heart rate - which often can just suddenly decide to dip.

Well, thanks for listening. Time to go down the pub, sink a few buds and get that balti in. Good work!

P.s. the girlfriend was trying to encourage me with her...'you know you are stronger than lance talk'...
I'm like 'yeah, right bull-poo'.
Cheers,
Tom.

Glad you seemed to enjoy it!

Ric

You don't train with one OR the other. You will use both measurements together to determine your progress. Here's the example that will clarify...
2 riders, weigh the same, both putting out the same power (watts)...therefore, assuming the same bike and gearing, they are going the same speed. Rider 1's heartrate, however, is 147. Rider 2's heartrate, at the same moment, is 162. Who will eventually win the race?(assuming they have the same biometrics...resting HR, max, etc.)
If you say rider 1, now you know why you need both measurements. If you say rider 2, buy a motorcycle!

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Originally posted by tomUK
I decided to fork out some cash an buy Tacx's new Flow turbo trainer.

Usually on my training rides I use a Heart rate monitor. Now I have a power meter (as to the accuracy of it - that I'm not sure - but it's all relative) and would like to know how how to train with power as opposed to heart rate.

I've read in a few places that training with power is more productive than with heart rate. Why is this if I may ask?

Also, I would like to know where I can find power-based workouts. Obviously the workout is dependant upon what I'm aiming for. My plan is to take 2 weeks holiday next year and ride 8-10 stages of the tour-de-france. A couple of my pals are I want to achieve this in the shortest time possible. Hence I know I need lots of miles under my belt, but can someone give me specifics? I know I will need to spend some serious hours on the bike in training to get as many miles as possible in but what HR % or power do I need to be aiming for. I've heard training with power is pretty much impossible, and therefore would like to know how power helps develop you.

Many thanks.
Tom.

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Originally posted by larrynipon
You don't train with one OR the other. You will use both measurements together to determine your progress. Here's the example that will clarify...
2 riders, weigh the same, both putting out the same power (watts)...therefore, assuming the same bike and gearing, they are going the same speed. Rider 1's heartrate, however, is 147. Rider 2's heartrate, at the same moment, is 162. Who will eventually win the race?(assuming they have the same biometrics...resting HR, max, etc.)
If you say rider 1, now you know why you need both measurements. If you say rider 2, buy a motorcycle!

This is incorrect, the one that will win will be the one that produces the highest power at the crucial point of the race irrespective of HR. This is not necessarily the highest average power either. HR is pretty unimportant

Ric