Hepatitis and iron reduction therapy

You may well love us all Tom (I assume that's the answer to the question at
the end of each post) and I accept that a high iron level is bad,
particularly for hep c treatment but why do you pester us continually with
your posts on iron being the root of all evil? Sure iron overload is bad
just as many other factors may cause or indicate trouble. It's good to know
that excess iron can inhibit the SVR process but do you really believe the
statement "The iron from the meat we eat builds to toxic levels in the body
and causes all disease"? It might make you feel good to have simplified
Medicine down to a single issue but it doesn't really help anyone except
those with too much iron. Even then I do not believe that iron is the cause
of all disease. Life is just a lot more complicated than that. Study
Biochemistry or Genetics and you'll soon see what I mean.

If Jesus was a vegetarian then he wasn't too concerned about what others
ate. Was not one of his purported miracles to feed the masses with 'loaves
and fishes"? Anyone who hands out free fish burgers can't be too much of a
vegetarian crank.

"Man is a herbivore". It's pretty clear that Man, in his Neolithic days and
after was an omnivore. Look at his dentition, his hunting tools, the bones
found at his campsites, our love of meat today. Look at the history of
hunting and farming. Of course we can eat veges too and we certainly should
and if you want to do so to the exclusion of all meat you're free to do so.
But don't try to pretend that yours is the 'natural' way. It's not. Even
chimps, our nearest relatives, occasionally eat meat. Oh but you probably
don't believe in evolution either I suppose so so much for that argument.
Real herbivores do not like meat. Try feeding a nice juicy steak to a cow or
a sheep. You should perhaps limit your case to something like "Some
countries today eat too much meat". You might well be able to make a case
for that.

Cheers

Jack

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%"

http://www.myanmar.gov.mm/Article/Article2004/July/july31.html

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 2:23 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

You may well love us all Tom (I assume that's the answer to the
question at
the end of each post) <<

Not a good start .. being .. wrong ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I accept that a high iron level is bad,

particularly for hep c treatment but why do you pester us continually
with
your posts on iron being the root of all evil?<<

Have I placed a disease which wasn't .. specifically .. SHOWN to BE ..
iron .. related .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure iron overload is bad

just as many other factors may cause or indicate trouble.<<

Ok .. you got your two cents in .. "iron is a .. consequence OF
disease and NOT the .. cause .. " ..

Is that about what you .. said .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's good to know

that excess iron can inhibit the SVR process but do you really
believe the
statement "The iron from the meat we eat builds to toxic levels in
the body
and causes all disease"? <<

Show me a disease which iron ISN'T .. involved ..

I've been saying THAT for years ..

How come nobody can come up with .. one .. ?

How come YOU don't place one ... BUT do take it upon yourself to ..
what .. ? .. pratle on .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It might make you feel good to have simplified

Medicine down to a single issue but it doesn't really help anyone
except
those with too much iron. <<

Yep .. that would be those .. sick people .. these groups are all
about .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even then I do not believe that iron is the cause

of all disease. <<

Of course you use .. science .. in all your .. work ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Life is just a lot more complicated than that. Study

Biochemistry or Genetics and you'll soon see what I mean.<<

Study and logic to people like you .. are .. mutually ..
**exclusive** ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If Jesus was a vegetarian then he wasn't too concerned about what others

ate. Was not one of his purported miracles to feed the masses with
'loaves
and fishes"? Anyone who hands out free fish burgers can't be too much
of a
vegetarian crank.<<

I seee.. science ISN'T .. your ONLY .. field of .. expertise ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Man is a herbivore". It's pretty clear that Man, in his Neolithic days and

after was an omnivore. Look at his dentition, his hunting tools, the
bones
found at his campsites, our love of meat today. Look at the history
of
hunting and farming. <<

Soooo .. YOUR .. 'take' .. is .. "if one chooses to DO something..
then it is a NATURAL .. part of them .. " ..

Just like .. skull fkg .. I suppose ..

Eh ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course we can eat veges too and we certainly should

and if you want to do so to the exclusion of all meat you're free to
do so.
But don't try to pretend that yours is the 'natural' way. It's not.
Even
chimps, our nearest relatives, occasionally eat meat. <<

Sooo .. again .. your 'argument' .. being .. compared to an animal
that CHOOSES to KILL anothers children in order to coerce her into
breeding due TO the fact he has killed her .. children .. ?

Contrary to YOU .. I believe killing anothers children .. is
**wrong** .. no matter HOW long it has been since I've been .. laid ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You should perhaps limit your case to something like "Some

countries today eat too much meat". You might well be able to make a
case
for that.<<

I believe I've .. made my case .. already ..

It is a matter of .. **disproving** my .. case ..

And frankly .. your ability to DO that .. has been found .. wanting ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 2:23 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

You may well love us all Tom (I assume that's the answer to the
question at
the end of each post) <<

Not a good start .. being .. wrong ...

Oh, well what is the answer? Our Mums?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I accept that a high iron level is bad,

particularly for hep c treatment but why do you pester us continually
with
your posts on iron being the root of all evil?<<

Have I placed a disease which wasn't .. specifically .. SHOWN to BE ..
iron .. related .. ?

As you think all diseases are iron related, you clearly must think that the
answer is no.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure iron overload is bad

just as many other factors may cause or indicate trouble.<<

Ok .. you got your two cents in .. "iron is a .. consequence OF
disease and NOT the .. cause .. " ..

Is that about what you .. said .. ?

No I don't think it is. Iron deficiency is clearly a cause for iron
deficient anaemia for example. It is relevant to some other diseases too.
Sometimes the iron level may be the cause of disease, sometimes the result,
sometimes there's no relation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's good to know

that excess iron can inhibit the SVR process but do you really
believe the
statement "The iron from the meat we eat builds to toxic levels in
the body
and causes all disease"? <<

Show me a disease which iron ISN'T .. involved ..

Well, I have lowish iron levels and yet I've caught many diseases, including
Hep C. I suppose the syringe that gave it to me was made of iron. Does that
count?

Quoted message said:

I've been saying THAT for years ..

How come nobody can come up with .. one .. ?

How come YOU don't place one ... BUT do take it upon yourself to ..
what .. ? .. pratle on .. ?

I prattle on? As for suggesting a disease where iron is not 'involved', I
suggest that no one has ever done that because they don't take the question
seriously. Or if they have suggested one then you've probably just rejected
it without evidence. I'll try my luck. What about the common cold? (or just
about any other disease). Please explain the role iron has in causing the
cold. Please don't place a link to a loony one-topic website. As I said
(more prattle coming up) my iron levels are low to normal yet I've still
caught lots of things. Are you going to say that iron at any level causes
disease? If that's true then there's not much we can do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It might make you feel good to have simplified

Medicine down to a single issue but it doesn't really help anyone
except
those with too much iron. <<

Yep .. that would be those .. sick people .. these groups are all
about .. ?

Well they certainly should have received the message by now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even then I do not believe that iron is the cause

of all disease. <<

Of course you use .. science .. in all your .. work ..

Why do you ... say that ... Tom? Is Science bad or can only scientists
comment?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Life is just a lot more complicated than that. Study

Biochemistry or Genetics and you'll soon see what I mean.<<

Study and logic to people like you .. are .. mutually ..
**exclusive** ..

So what are people like me better at? Study or logic?
..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If Jesus was a vegetarian then he wasn't too concerned about what others

ate. Was not one of his purported miracles to feed the masses with
'loaves
and fishes"? Anyone who hands out free fish burgers can't be too much
of a
vegetarian crank.<<

I seee.. science ISN'T .. your ONLY .. field of .. expertise ..

Did I ever say it was?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Man is a herbivore". It's pretty clear that Man, in his Neolithic days
and

after was an omnivore. Look at his dentition, his hunting tools, the
bones
found at his campsites, our love of meat today. Look at the history
of
hunting and farming. <<

Soooo .. YOUR .. 'take' .. is .. "if one chooses to DO something..
then it is a NATURAL .. part of them .. " ..

Just like .. skull fkg .. I suppose ..

Eh ..

Just as we know the smile is innate because all people from all different
cultures use it to indicate the same thing, similarly, if you look at our
history and all modern societies that I know of, you'll find people rather
keen on meat. This indicates to me that it is innate. Just as you can't make
a real herbivore like meat or a real carnivore eat lettuce. However, being
an omnivore you can certainly choose not to eat meat. It's not that we
choose to eat meat so much as that some people choose NOT to. And good luck
to them. But of course it's natural whether we like it or not. Nature red in
tooth and claw Tom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course we can eat veges too and we certainly should

and if you want to do so to the exclusion of all meat you're free to
do so.
But don't try to pretend that yours is the 'natural' way. It's not.
Even
chimps, our nearest relatives, occasionally eat meat. <<

Sooo .. again .. your 'argument' .. being .. compared to an animal
that CHOOSES to KILL anothers children in order to coerce her into
breeding due TO the fact he has killed her .. children .. ?

Your thinking of lions. A new male to the pride will often kill all the
cubs. But I don't think they eat them. At least that's not their primary aim
which is, as you say, to bring the female to oestrus and replace the pride
with their own offspring. But do lions choose to do this or is it innate?
Innate I reckon. As for chimps (which is our nearest relative). They eat the
meat of the Colobus monkey mainly. The males go out in a group and hunt
them. Then they tear them apart with their bare hands and eat the meat red
and dripping. Some males will then share some of their meat with a female on
heat for sexual favours. See, they just love meat.

Quoted message said:

Contrary to YOU .. I believe killing anothers children .. is
**wrong** .. no matter HOW long it has been since I've been .. laid ..

Ha ha. Yes every time I want to get laid, I kill someone's kids. Works every
time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You should perhaps limit your case to something like "Some

countries today eat too much meat". You might well be able to make a
case
for that.<<

I believe I've .. made my case .. already ..

It is a matter of .. **disproving** my .. case ..

And frankly .. your ability to DO that .. has been found .. wanting ..

I disagree. Your case (iron causes all disease) is far from proven. It's
true I haven't read all your posts. There's just so much info on iron that I
need.

Quoted message said:

Who loves ya.

My dog, I'm pretty sure about that.

Quoted message said:

Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%"

http://www.myanmar.gov.mm/Article/Article2004/July/july31.html

Who loves ya.
Tom

That's from '04, Tom. Don't you think we'd have heard more about it by now
if it was a viable option? --especially for those of us who are out of
options.

Jack;

Quoted message said:

You may well love us all Tom (I assume that's the answer to the question at
the end of each post) and I accept that a high iron level is bad,
particularly for hep c treatment but why do you pester us continually with
your posts on iron being the root of all evil? Sure iron overload is bad
just as many other factors may cause or indicate trouble. It's good to know
that excess iron can inhibit the SVR process but do you really believe the
statement "The iron from the meat we eat builds to toxic levels in the body
and causes all disease"? It might make you feel good to have simplified
Medicine down to a single issue but it doesn't really help anyone except
those with too much iron. Even then I do not believe that iron is the cause
of all disease. Life is just a lot more complicated than that. Study
Biochemistry or Genetics and you'll soon see what I mean.

Don't confuse Tom the Troll with reason, logic, or science. He has no
real medical knowledge, only the clips he finds about iron, usually
from PubMed.

It's also useless to argue theology with him, as he claims to have
found a secret code in the Bible. To put it kindly, he is borderline
psychotic.

If you don't agree with him and say so. he will SHOUT at you and spout
obscenities with the vowels removed.

I highly doubt he could study biochemistry or genetics. He lacks the
intelligence for such an undertaking.

He has been plaguing the Usenet groups for over a dozen years with his
discombobulated misinformation. I don't think your articulate replies
to him will change a thing.

Brindal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 9:16 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Oh, well what is the answer? Our Mums?<<

Didn't the Bible tell you .. ?

Oh .. yeah .. your research is .. ? .. wanting .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I placed a disease which wasn't .. specifically .. SHOWN to BE ..

iron .. related .. ?<<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you think all diseases are iron related, you clearly must think that the

answer is no.<<

Well your .. reason .. seems to be .. intact ..

Now it is a matter of .. logic ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I have lowish iron levels and yet I've caught many diseases, including

Hep C. <<

Since you are not a .. young vegetarian woman .. I'll assume your iron
levels are that of a man .. a meat eating .. man .. which are shown to
be double those of vegetarian .. men ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

suppose the syringe that gave it to me was made of iron. Does that

count?<<

Only if you allow it to be accessed by a .. bacteria .. or .. virus ..
which utilizes the iron for growth and a-d-h-e-s-i-o-n ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I prattle on? As for suggesting a disease where iron is not 'involved', I

suggest that no one has ever done that because they don't take the
question
seriously. <<

Again .. prattle ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or if they have suggested one then you've probably just rejected

it without evidence. <<

Prattle .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll try my luck. What about the common cold? (or just

about any other disease). Please explain the role iron has in causing
the
cold. <<

In the human body there is a natural antibiotic .. lactoferrin .
It is present in all the slime in our bodies.
It is the bodies PRIME defense in the fight of infection.
Lactoferrin acts by removing iron from the invader.
When this lactoferrin becomes 'saturated' with iron it becomes useless
and is unable
to function .

Antiviral effects of plasma and milk proteins: lactoferrin shows
potent
activity against both human immunodeficiency virus and human
cytomegalovirus
replication in vitro.

Harmsen MC, Swart PJ, de Bethune MP, Pauwels R, De Clercq E, The TH,
Meijer DK

Native and chemically derivatized proteins purified from serum and
milk were
assayed in vitro to assess their inhibiting capacity on the cytopathic
effect
of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-1 and human cytomegalovirus
(HCMV) on
MT4 cells and fibroblasts, respectively. Only native and
conformationally
intact lactoferrin from bovine or human milk, colostrum, or serum
could
completely block HCMV infection (IC50 = 35-100 micrograms/mL).
Moreover,
native lactoferrin also inhibited the HIV-1-induced cytopathic effect
(IC50 =
40 micrograms/mL). When negatively charged groups were added to
lactoferrin by
succinylation, there was a 4-fold stronger antiviral effect on HIV-1,
but the
antiviral potency for HCMV infection was mostly decreased. Lactoferrin
likely
exerts its effect at the level of virus adsorption or penetration (or
both),
because after HCMV penetrated fibroblasts, the ongoing infection could
not be
further inhibited.

--------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please don't place a link to a loony one-topic website. As I said

(more prattle coming up) my iron levels are low to normal yet I've
still
caught lots of things. Are you going to say that iron at any level
causes
disease? If that's true then there's not much we can do.<<

Oh .. ?

When you come onto a thread which SPECIFICALLY shows .. cure rate ..
YOU .. say .. "nothing we can do .. " .. ?

That would be .. as the article .. STATES .. "iron reduction
therapy" ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your thinking of lions.<<

Chimps .. you said .. chimps .. didn't .. ya .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ha ha. Yes every time I want to get laid, I kill someone's kids. Works every

time.<<

Works for .. chimps .. YOUR .. 'reference' .. TO .. man.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I disagree. Your case (iron causes all disease) is far from proven. It's

true I haven't read all your posts. There's just so much info on iron
that I
need.<<

Well with one third of the world with hepatitis .. and the rest with
diabetes malaria , tuberculosis or .. diabetes .. then since iron
reduction has been shown to be .. efficacious IN .. "all of the
above" .. then .. pretty much .. MOST .. of disease has NOW been ..
accounted .. for ..

NOW for the few .. relatively .. with cancer .. and such ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

On 22 May 2007 16:43:31 -0700, ironjustice <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Well with one third of the world with hepatitis .. and the rest with
diabetes malaria , tuberculosis or .. diabetes .. then since iron
reduction has been shown to be .. efficacious IN .. "all of the
above" .. then .. pretty much .. MOST .. of disease has NOW been ..
accounted .. for ..

And with that 'graph you've gone and shown yourself to be a simple
charlatan...

Cheers anyway

/greyhackles

ironjustice said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 5:11 pm, greyhackles <[email hidden]> wrote: shown yourself to be a simple

charlatan...<<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers anyway<<

Well that's awful .. white .. of ya ..

call a guy a charlatan .. and THEN .. wish him well ..

On medical lists .. ?

You have MUCH more .. tolerance .. than .. I ..

Whether wishing .. charlatans .. well .. is .. supportive .. is a
matter of contention .. I guess ..

Personally .. charlatans on medical lists .. should be ..
**squished** .. but that is .. my .. take on it ..

Yours .. ? .. "have at it .. " .. ?

Heh .. heh ..

You would NOT be the one .. watching MY back .. if I could / would
have ANY say in it .. at .. all ..

You couldn't be .. **trusted** ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Loves me :-)
Loves me not :-(

Just because you're a loony on a mission is no reason for me to be less than
my usual pleasant self.

So Cheers - whether you like it or not.

/greyhackles (ahahahahahahahaha :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 2:51 pm, "Thip" <[email hidden]> wrote: That's from '04, Tom. Don't you think we'd have heard more about it by now

if it was a viable option? --especially for those of us who are out
of
options.<<

Well it seems the Japanese are following up on it and getting some
good results.

Hepatogastroenterology.
2005 Mar-Apr;52(62):563-6.

Additional effect of low iron diet on iron reduction therapy by
phlebotomy for chronic hepatitis C.

Kimura F, Hayashi H, Yano M, Yoshioka K, Matsumura T, [censored] T,
Shigeto N, Yamahara S, Koushi F, Mishima Y, Yoshino T, Tanimoto M,
Kimura I.

Department of Internal Medicine, Tamano-Municipal Hospital, Tamano
City, Okayama, Japan.
[email hidden]

BACKGROUND/AIMS:
Iron-induced oxidative stress plays an important role in the
pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C. Both phlebotomy for removing
body iron stores and low iron diet for minimizing portal iron supply
to the liver have been shown to improve serum transaminase levels in
patients with the disease. However, the cooperative effects of
phlebotomy and low iron diet have not yet been elucidated in detail.

METHODOLOGY:
A pilot study was undertaken to investigate whether a low iron diet
could improve the efficacy of phlebotomy in iron reduction therapy.
Of
21 patients diagnosed with chronic hepatitis C,
10 patients were treated with phlebotomy alone (group A) while
11 patients were treated with a low iron plus phlebotomy (group B).

Phlebotomy was repeated biweekly until serum ferritin levels reached
10 ng/mL in both A and B groups.

In addition, a low iron diet (iron intake of 8 mg/day or less) was
recommended for group B, followed by estimation of iron intake from
daily diet records.

RESULTS:
Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved
from
106+/-30 to
68+/-22 IU/L (p<0.005, paired t-test) in group A and from

100+/-33 to
46+/-10 IU/L (p<0.002, paired t-test) in group B.

The enzyme levels after treatment were significantly higher in group
A
(p<0.02, non-paired t-test), which showed a higher upward
distribution
of the enzyme activity.

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

ironjustice said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 2:51 pm, "Thip" <[email hidden]> wrote: That's from '04, Tom. Don't you think we'd have heard more about it by now

if it was a viable option? --especially for those of us who are out
of
options.<<

Well it seems the Japanese are following up on it and getting some
good results.

Hepatogastroenterology.
2005 Mar-Apr;52(62):563-6.

Additional effect of low iron diet on iron reduction therapy by
phlebotomy for chronic hepatitis C.

Kimura F, Hayashi H, Yano M, Yoshioka K, Matsumura T, [censored] T,
Shigeto N, Yamahara S, Koushi F, Mishima Y, Yoshino T, Tanimoto M,
Kimura I.

Department of Internal Medicine, Tamano-Municipal Hospital, Tamano
City, Okayama, Japan.
[email hidden]

BACKGROUND/AIMS:
Iron-induced oxidative stress plays an important role in the
pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C. Both phlebotomy for removing
body iron stores and low iron diet for minimizing portal iron supply
to the liver have been shown to improve serum transaminase levels in
patients with the disease. However, the cooperative effects of
phlebotomy and low iron diet have not yet been elucidated in detail.

METHODOLOGY:
A pilot study was undertaken to investigate whether a low iron diet
could improve the efficacy of phlebotomy in iron reduction therapy.
Of
21 patients diagnosed with chronic hepatitis C,
10 patients were treated with phlebotomy alone (group A) while
11 patients were treated with a low iron plus phlebotomy (group B).

Phlebotomy was repeated biweekly until serum ferritin levels reached
10 ng/mL in both A and B groups.

In addition, a low iron diet (iron intake of 8 mg/day or less) was
recommended for group B, followed by estimation of iron intake from
daily diet records.

RESULTS:
Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved
from
106+/-30 to
68+/-22 IU/L (p<0.005, paired t-test) in group A and from

100+/-33 to
46+/-10 IU/L (p<0.002, paired t-test) in group B.

The enzyme levels after treatment were significantly higher in group
A
(p<0.02, non-paired t-test), which showed a higher upward
distribution
of the enzyme activity.

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Now .. it would be of benefit to those in the community to ..
calculate .. whether this diet 8.2+/-3.7 mg/day can be **easily**
achieved with the present iron fortification .. program.

If it is .. not .. achievable **easily** .. then a lawsuit would /
could / should be .. implemented .. DUE TO .. the **consequences**
OF .. not being easily able to protect oneself FROM .. death .. due to
intervention of the government in ones' food supply.

I .. think it is in the .. Constitution ..

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Well, there ya go. Ole Tom doesn't only not trust you, but he wants to
squish you. Good thing he loves ya.

"greyhackles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 22 May 2007 18:33:13 -0700, ironjustice <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On May 22, 5:11 pm, greyhackles <[email hidden]> wrote:
>shown yourself to be a simple

charlatan...<<

Quoted message said:

>Cheers anyway<<

Well that's awful .. white .. of ya ..

call a guy a charlatan .. and THEN .. wish him well ..

On medical lists .. ?

You have MUCH more .. tolerance .. than .. I ..

Whether wishing .. charlatans .. well .. is .. supportive .. is a
matter of contention .. I guess ..

Personally .. charlatans on medical lists .. should be ..
**squished** .. but that is .. my .. take on it ..

Yours .. ? .. "have at it .. " .. ?

Heh .. heh ..

You would NOT be the one .. watching MY back .. if I could / would
have ANY say in it .. at .. all ..

You couldn't be .. **trusted** ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Loves me :-)
Loves me not :-(

Just because you're a loony on a mission is no reason for me to be less
than
my usual pleasant self.

So Cheers - whether you like it or not.

/greyhackles (ahahahahahahahaha :-)

"Brindal" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jack;

Quoted message said:

You may well love us all Tom (I assume that's the answer to the question
at
the end of each post) and I accept that a high iron level is bad,
particularly for hep c treatment but why do you pester us continually
with
your posts on iron being the root of all evil? Sure iron overload is bad
just as many other factors may cause or indicate trouble. It's good to
know
that excess iron can inhibit the SVR process but do you really believe
the
statement "The iron from the meat we eat builds to toxic levels in the
body
and causes all disease"? It might make you feel good to have simplified
Medicine down to a single issue but it doesn't really help anyone except
those with too much iron. Even then I do not believe that iron is the
cause
of all disease. Life is just a lot more complicated than that. Study
Biochemistry or Genetics and you'll soon see what I mean.

Don't confuse Tom the Troll with reason, logic, or science. He has no
real medical knowledge, only the clips he finds about iron, usually
from PubMed.

It's also useless to argue theology with him, as he claims to have
found a secret code in the Bible. To put it kindly, he is borderline
psychotic.

If you don't agree with him and say so. he will SHOUT at you and spout
obscenities with the vowels removed.

I highly doubt he could study biochemistry or genetics. He lacks the
intelligence for such an undertaking.

He has been plaguing the Usenet groups for over a dozen years with his
discombobulated misinformation. I don't think your articulate replies
to him will change a thing.

Brindal

I was naive, I see that now. Kinda fun though. I'm always surprised with
what 'people like Tom' will come out with next.

"If you don't agree with him and say so. he will SHOUT at you and spout
obscenities with the vowels removed."

Yes I noticed that. It seems to me that an obscenity is in the thought not
the spelling. If you want to swear might as well just come out with the
word, vowels and all. Maybe Tom's replying from work and is afraid that the
in-house morality police will catch him??

Cheers

Jack

Quoted message said:

One last go at this and then I stop. Promise.

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 9:16 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Oh, well what is the answer? Our Mums?<<

Didn't the Bible tell you .. ?

Yes I believe I've worked it out. Had to go back to Sunday school days.
"Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so". But if this is so
Tom and you believe it then surely my first answer was right as well. At
least that's what Jesus asks us to do.

Quoted message said:

Oh .. yeah .. your research is .. ? .. wanting .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have I placed a disease which wasn't .. specifically .. SHOWN to BE ..

iron .. related .. ?<<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As you think all diseases are iron related, you clearly must think that
the

answer is no.<<

Well your .. reason .. seems to be .. intact ..

Now it is a matter of .. logic ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I have lowish iron levels and yet I've caught many diseases,
including

Hep C. <<

Since you are not a .. young vegetarian woman .. I'll assume your iron
levels are that of a man .. a meat eating .. man .. which are shown to
be double those of vegetarian .. men ..

If vegetarian men have half of my iron levels, they must all be anemic.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

suppose the syringe that gave it to me was made of iron. Does that

count?<<

Only if you allow it to be accessed by a .. bacteria .. or .. virus ..
which utilizes the iron for growth and a-d-h-e-s-i-o-n ..

Viruses grow on iron? I don't think so. They need a host cell. And adhesion
hey. They stick to the needle. Now there's a revolutionary idea.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I prattle on? As for suggesting a disease where iron is not 'involved',
I

suggest that no one has ever done that because they don't take the
question
seriously. <<

Again .. prattle ..

Worth considering though Tom...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or if they have suggested one then you've probably just rejected

it without evidence. <<

Prattle .. ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll try my luck. What about the common cold? (or just

about any other disease). Please explain the role iron has in causing
the
cold. <<

In the human body there is a natural antibiotic .. lactoferrin .
It is present in all the slime in our bodies.

Slime? Is that the correct medical term?

Quoted message said:

It is the bodies PRIME defense in the fight of infection.
Lactoferrin acts by removing iron from the invader.
When this lactoferrin becomes 'saturated' with iron it becomes useless
and is unable
to function .

Antiviral effects of plasma and milk proteins: lactoferrin shows
potent
activity against both human immunodeficiency virus and human
cytomegalovirus
replication in vitro.

Harmsen MC, Swart PJ, de Bethune MP, Pauwels R, De Clercq E, The TH,
Meijer DK

You say that iron causes disease but lactoferrin does not prove that. It
shows that a normal level of iron is required to allow lactoferrin to do its
stuff. The immune system is highly complex and has multifarious ways of
warding off attack. No one is saying that iron doesn't come into the
equation. You can have too much or too little iron as with everything else.

Quoted message said:

Native and chemically derivatized proteins purified from serum and
milk were
assayed in vitro to assess their inhibiting capacity on the cytopathic
effect
of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-1 and human cytomegalovirus
(HCMV) on
MT4 cells and fibroblasts, respectively. Only native and
conformationally
intact lactoferrin from bovine or human milk, colostrum, or serum
could
completely block HCMV infection (IC50 = 35-100 micrograms/mL).
Moreover,
native lactoferrin also inhibited the HIV-1-induced cytopathic effect
(IC50 =
40 micrograms/mL). When negatively charged groups were added to
lactoferrin by
succinylation, there was a 4-fold stronger antiviral effect on HIV-1,
but the
antiviral potency for HCMV infection was mostly decreased. Lactoferrin
likely
exerts its effect at the level of virus adsorption or penetration (or
both),
because after HCMV penetrated fibroblasts, the ongoing infection could
not be
further inhibited.

--------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please don't place a link to a loony one-topic website. As I said

(more prattle coming up) my iron levels are low to normal yet I've
still
caught lots of things. Are you going to say that iron at any level
causes
disease? If that's true then there's not much we can do.<<

Oh .. ?

When you come onto a thread which SPECIFICALLY shows .. cure rate ..
YOU .. say .. "nothing we can do .. " .. ?

That would be .. as the article .. STATES .. "iron reduction
therapy" ..

Too little iron is bad too Tom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your thinking of lions.<<

Chimps .. you said .. chimps .. didn't .. ya .. ?

Yes I said chimps. We're talking about meat eating are we not? If a dominant
chimp murders a baby it's not for the food. It's for the same reason as
lions. It's irrelevant to our discussion. My point of showing meat eating in
chimps was just to show that meat eating in our lineage may go back quite a
way. But of course I admit that because chimps eat meat doesn't mean that we
naturally do. Only that looking deep into our past (all the homonids at
least) our ancestors appear to have eaten meat. I take a leap then back to
our common ancester with chimps and since meat eating occurs in both
branches after the split, it's quite possible that our common ancester also
ate meat. It may not have though. There is no evidence. It's just part of
the big picture.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ha ha. Yes every time I want to get laid, I kill someone's kids. Works
every

time.<<

Works for .. chimps .. YOUR .. 'reference' .. TO .. man.

Actually, what really works for a chimp (except the dominant male who does
what he likes) is taking care of the babies. This confers immunity from
attack and makes the females look kindly upon him. But, as I explained
above, chimps are not my reference for Man. The best evidence for me that we
naturally eat meat is that most people like it. Not everyone of course. Some
people don't like meat and some don't like veges. I personally eat a bit of
meat but not a lot. It takes all kinds. But you won't find many societies
that don't eat meat. Why is it that most people like meat? Evolution has
provided us with all our innate drives in order to make us successful at
reproducing. We have desires for air, food and water, sex etc etc which we
like to satisfy. It makes us feel good to do so. If we didn't benefit from
eating meat, we simply wouldn't like it. Just as no one likes to eat rotten
meat (because it would make us sick) some animals like hyenas and dogs
thrive on it. They love the taste and the smell of it. This is obvious to
anyone who has a dog. But dogs don't like bananas because they don't have
the digestive system to deal with fruit and so evolution has programmed them
to hate bananas (something I find incredible). Being omnivores we don't HAVE
to eat meat. We can choose not to eat it just as priests can choose not to
have sex (ostensibly at least). This argument holds by the way whether you
believe in evolution or not. Whether it be by God, an intelligent designer
or by evolution you have to wonder why we have a taste for meat. Reminds me
of a joke. If God wanted us to be vegetarians then why did he make animals
out of meat?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I disagree. Your case (iron causes all disease) is far from proven. It's

true I haven't read all your posts. There's just so much info on iron
that I
need.<<

Well with one third of the world with hepatitis .. and the rest with
diabetes malaria , tuberculosis or .. diabetes .. then since iron
reduction has been shown to be .. efficacious IN .. "all of the
above" .. then .. pretty much .. MOST .. of disease has NOW been ..
accounted .. for ..

Your logic is only valid (perhaps) for those with too much iron.

Quoted message said:

NOW for the few .. relatively .. with cancer .. and such ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 22, 2:51 pm, "Thip" <[email hidden]> wrote: That's from '04,
Tom. Don't you think we'd have heard more about it by now

if it was a viable option? --especially for those of us who are out
of
options.<<

Well it seems the Japanese are following up on it and getting some
good results.

Hepatogastroenterology.
2005 Mar-Apr;52(62):563-6.

Additional effect of low iron diet on iron reduction therapy by
phlebotomy for chronic hepatitis C.

Kimura F, Hayashi H, Yano M, Yoshioka K, Matsumura T, [censored] T,
Shigeto N, Yamahara S, Koushi F, Mishima Y, Yoshino T, Tanimoto M,
Kimura I.

Department of Internal Medicine, Tamano-Municipal Hospital, Tamano
City, Okayama, Japan.
[email hidden]

BACKGROUND/AIMS:
Iron-induced oxidative stress plays an important role in the
pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C. Both phlebotomy for removing
body iron stores and low iron diet for minimizing portal iron supply
to the liver have been shown to improve serum transaminase levels in
patients with the disease. However, the cooperative effects of
phlebotomy and low iron diet have not yet been elucidated in detail.

ie...this is not a cure.....by any stretch of anyone's imagination...

at best...at very best....the liver enzymes might be...might be...reduced a
tad...ie...lifespan MIGHT be increased a tad///

not a cure by any means...

Quoted message said:

METHODOLOGY:
A pilot study was undertaken to investigate whether a low iron diet
could improve the efficacy of phlebotomy in iron reduction therapy.
Of
21 patients diagnosed with chronic hepatitis C,
10 patients were treated with phlebotomy alone (group A) while
11 patients were treated with a low iron plus phlebotomy (group B).

Phlebotomy was repeated biweekly until serum ferritin levels reached
10 ng/mL in both A and B groups.

In addition, a low iron diet (iron intake of 8 mg/day or less) was
recommended for group B, followed by estimation of iron intake from
daily diet records.

RESULTS:
Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved
from
106+/-30 to
68+/-22 IU/L (p<0.005, paired t-test) in group A and from

100+/-33 to
46+/-10 IU/L (p<0.002, paired t-test) in group B.

The enzyme levels after treatment were significantly higher in group
A
(p<0.02, non-paired t-test), which showed a higher upward
distribution
of the enzyme activity.

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ironjustice said:

Quoted message said:

> On May 22, 2:51 pm, "Thip" <[email hidden]> wrote: That's from '04,
> Tom. Don't you think we'd have heard more about it by now

if it was a viable option? --especially for those of us who are out
of
options.<<

Well it seems the Japanese are following up on it and getting some
good results.

Hepatogastroenterology.
2005 Mar-Apr;52(62):563-6.

Additional effect of low iron diet on iron reduction therapy by
phlebotomy for chronic hepatitis C.

Kimura F, Hayashi H, Yano M, Yoshioka K, Matsumura T, [censored] T,
Shigeto N, Yamahara S, Koushi F, Mishima Y, Yoshino T, Tanimoto M,
Kimura I.

Department of Internal Medicine, Tamano-Municipal Hospital, Tamano
City, Okayama, Japan.
[email hidden]

BACKGROUND/AIMS:
Iron-induced oxidative stress plays an important role in the
pathogenesis of chronic hepatitis C. Both phlebotomy for removing
body iron stores and low iron diet for minimizing portal iron supply
to the liver have been shown to improve serum transaminase levels in
patients with the disease. However, the cooperative effects of
phlebotomy and low iron diet have not yet been elucidated in detail.

METHODOLOGY:
A pilot study was undertaken to investigate whether a low iron diet
could improve the efficacy of phlebotomy in iron reduction therapy.
Of
21 patients diagnosed with chronic hepatitis C,
10 patients were treated with phlebotomy alone (group A) while
11 patients were treated with a low iron plus phlebotomy (group B).

Phlebotomy was repeated biweekly until serum ferritin levels reached
10 ng/mL in both A and B groups.

In addition, a low iron diet (iron intake of 8 mg/day or less) was
recommended for group B, followed by estimation of iron intake from
daily diet records.

RESULTS:
Serum alanine aminotransferase levels were significantly improved
from
106+/-30 to
68+/-22 IU/L (p<0.005, paired t-test) in group A and from

100+/-33 to
46+/-10 IU/L (p<0.002, paired t-test) in group B.

The enzyme levels after treatment were significantly higher in group
A
(p<0.02, non-paired t-test), which showed a higher upward
distribution
of the enzyme activity.

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Now .. it would be of benefit to those in the community to ..
calculate .. whether this diet 8.2+/-3.7 mg/day can be **easily**
achieved with the present iron fortification .. program.

If it is .. not .. achievable **easily** .. then a lawsuit would /
could / should be .. implemented .. DUE TO .. the **consequences**
OF .. not being easily able to protect oneself FROM .. death .. due to
intervention of the government in ones' food supply.

I .. think it is in the .. Constitution ..

yikes...you are going off the bend Tom.....where in the US Constitution???

just curious

Quoted message said:

The estimated dietary iron intake in group B was reduced from
17.6+/-6.1 to
8.2+/-3.7 mg/day.

CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest that phlebotomy alone does not completely
remove iron-induced oxidative stress and a low iron diet induces an
additional
effect in iron reduction therapy for chronic hepatitis C.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&...

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

ironjustice said:

Well that's awful .. white .. of ya ..

Not only is he a moron, but he's a racist as well.

Then he goes on to speak of "tolerance."

Just when you think you've seen all sides of him, he shows another
ugly one.

Brindal

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 23, 4:12 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote: I was
naive, I see that now. Kinda fun though. I'm always surprised with

what 'people like Tom' will come out with next.<<

Actually .. pal .. you see the .. thread .. ?

DID you .. add TO .. the thread .. ?

Did you contribute .. TO .. the thread ..?

No .. you asked a few questions which were answered rather ..
nicely ..

And NOW .. you have something .. personal .. to .. say .. ?

There is a word that .. fits .. here ..

Everyone here .. knows the .. word ..

You being new to these groups .. I believe .. don't know the ..
word ..

The descriptive word .. "of your kind" .. is .. [censored] ..

Heh .. heh ..

Now fk off until you .. **learn** .. something .. TO .. contribute ..

Heh .. heh ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Quoted message said:

"If you don't agree with him and say so. he will SHOUT at you and spout
obscenities with the vowels removed."

Yes I noticed that. It seems to me that an obscenity is in the thought
not
the spelling. If you want to swear might as well just come out with the
word, vowels and all. Maybe Tom's replying from work and is afraid that
the
in-house morality police will catch him??

Cheers

Jack

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I think I added to the thread and I was trying to improve the quality of
the newsgroup by getting you to stop ranting. But I see now how it goes with
you. Anything you don't agree with or don't understand is prattle.
Eventually you forget about the arguments completely and resort to straight
out insults (vowels removed not withstanding). Well, I wanted to see what
you'd say next and frankly I must tell you that I'm disappointed in you Tom.
I thought you'd have something more amusing to say.

..

It is curious the way you remove the vowels from swear words. Why do you do
that? I thought my guess was reasonable and gave you the benefit of the
doubt. But it must be something else. Also why do you place ellipses .
between . your .words? You seem to do it more when you get hot and
bothered. Are you trying to represent your laboured breathing?

Jack

On May 24, 3:08 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:But I
see now how it goes with
you. Anything you don't agree with or don't understand is prattle.<<

Actually .. pal .. you see .. I .. started .. the thread .. YOU ..
asked questions ..

The .. questions were asked by .. YOU ..

If there is any .. lack of intelligence IN this .. thread ..

You've admitted it .. BY .. ? .. asking questions ..

Now you probably don't .. see .. HOW .. asking questions .. PROVES ..
'lack of intelligence' .. but that .. again .. is the whole circle of
life .. dealy .. stupidity .. does not necessarily .. connotate ..
intelligence ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

"Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ironjustice" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On May 23, 4:12 am, "Jack Black" <[email hidden]> wrote: I was
>naive, I see that now. Kinda fun though. I'm always surprised with

what 'people like Tom' will come out with next.<<

Actually .. pal .. you see the .. thread .. ?

DID you .. add TO .. the thread .. ?

Did you contribute .. TO .. the thread ..?

No .. you asked a few questions which were answered rather ..
nicely ..

And NOW .. you have something .. personal .. to .. say .. ?

There is a word that .. fits .. here ..

Everyone here .. knows the .. word ..

You being new to these groups .. I believe .. don't know the ..
word ..

The descriptive word .. "of your kind" .. is .. [censored] ..

Heh .. heh ..

Now fk off until you .. **learn** .. something .. TO .. contribute ..

Heh .. heh ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Quoted message said:

"If you don't agree with him and say so. he will SHOUT at you and spout
obscenities with the vowels removed."

Yes I noticed that. It seems to me that an obscenity is in the thought
not
the spelling. If you want to swear might as well just come out with the
word, vowels and all. Maybe Tom's replying from work and is afraid that
the
in-house morality police will catch him??

from work???

now that's a laugh ...Tom has been on the Canadian dole for decades....what
he DOES that he calls "work" is to fire up his search engine,,enter in two
works (one of which is iron or iron related)...then cut and paste...if
anyone challenges "him"...than the rants start'

you will also notice that once he has been "busted"...he will quietly leave
a thread....only to reappear in another a few days later

we have a word for Tom's ilk......pathetic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers

Jack

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes I think I added to the thread and I was trying to improve the quality
of the newsgroup by getting you to stop ranting. But I see now how it goes
with you. Anything you don't agree with or don't understand is prattle.
Eventually you forget about the arguments completely and resort to
straight out insults (vowels removed not withstanding). Well, I wanted to
see what you'd say next and frankly I must tell you that I'm disappointed
in you Tom. I thought you'd have something more amusing to say.

.

It is curious the way you remove the vowels from swear words. Why do you
do that? I thought my guess was reasonable and gave you the benefit of the
doubt. But it must be something else. Also why do you place ellipses .
between . your .words? You seem to do it more when you get hot and
bothered. Are you trying to represent your laboured breathing?

Jack