Trans Fats: A theory or Fact?

"Jay" <[email hidden]>
wrote:news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

No. In the near future all the Vegetable Oils will be sold as the biofuel.
S*

Quoted message said:

Szczepan Bialek said:

"Jay" <[email hidden]>
wrote:news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

No. In the near future all the Vegetable Oils will be sold as the biofuel.

Probably true.

To the question--evidence is what science is about. If you want
absolute facts, listen to Bush and Cheney, and they'll give their
fascist spin and [censored] they like to pass off as facts.

By contrast, evidence has been abundant and robust to show the health
problems associated with trans-fatty acids. And like anything, if you
eat fast food (where they are often abundant), once a year, they'll do
you little harm. If you eat that [censored] every day--you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

George M. Carter

"Szczepan Bialek" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

"Jay" <[email hidden]>
wrote:news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

No. In the near future all the Vegetable Oils will be sold as the biofuel.
S*

Quoted message said:

There's no way that high-quality extra-virgin olive oil (at, say $30/liter)
is going to be used for fuel in the near future.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

Don't forget our disappearing sidewalks and our dependence on cars, trucks,
escalators, and labor-saving tools of all kinds. It's a double whammy.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

Jim Chinnis said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

Don't forget our disappearing sidewalks and our dependence on cars, trucks,
escalators, and labor-saving tools of all kinds. It's a double whammy.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

Oddly... I remember cars in the 1960s. And last time I looked at old
newsreels and documentaries, there were cars in the 1950's too, and
the 1940's. And elevators and other labour saving devices as well. But
we did not start getting fat 'til the 1970's, then we got fatter in
the 1980's and we really got fat in the 1990's and the trend
continues.

You have not convinced us that there was a major shift in driving and
exercise habits *starting* in the 1970's and ongoing since then.

TC

Jim Chinnis said:

"Szczepan Bialek" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

"Jay" <[email hidden]>
wrote:news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

Quoted message said:

No. In the near future all the Vegetable Oils will be sold as the biofuel.
S*

There's no way that high-quality extra-virgin olive oil (at, say $30/liter)
is going to be used for fuel in the near future.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

Of course not. But there is a lot of really cheap corn oil, canola
oil, soy oil etc, that would be much better applied as a fuel since
they are such poor foods due to their highly processed nutrient-
deficient nature.

TC

Jay said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

The importance of omega 3 fatty acids has been established as an
essential fatty acid which the human body can't synthesize. Omega 6
fatty acids were previously established as an essential fatty acid
because of the more severe side effects that a deficiency may cause.

Saturated fatty acids and monounsaturated fatty acids are not deemed
essential because the body can synthesize them.

It isn't known what the optimal consumption of the major nutrients
such as protein, carbohydrate, and the various fatty acids are and
that probably varies between individuals and their lifestyle.

Other than as a source of calories and resistance to spoilage, no one
has established a benefit for transfats over the other fats.

--
Ron

Most likely, it is the unsaturated bonds in combination with the lack
of natural antioxidant protection, along with the way it is usually
used (deep frying). A truly toxic combination, but the trans bonds
themselves are not likely to be a problem, if eaten in reasonable
amounts at least. The problem is that hardly anyone uses a product
like 100% hydrogenated coconut oil to make a food item (with no other
lipids used). I found a cookie at my local supermarket that used
hydrogenated palm kernel oil, and even there, the cookie had 8 grams
of fat per serving, 7 of which were saturated fatty acids. I only eat
very small amounts at a time, however, because I fear that 1 gram that
is unsaturated. It would be very simple to do experiments on lab rats
to see if there is any truth to these claims. Or you could do it
yourself. One group gets only 30% fresh coconut oil, another group
gets 30% fat from 100% hydrogenated coconut oil, a third gets no fat,
a fourth gets partially hydrogenated soybean oil at 30% daily
calories, a fifth gets the new "interesterified" fat (with the same
amount of double bonds as the fourth group), and the last gets the
supposedly healthiest, canola oil and fish oil at 30% daily calories.
No antioxidant supplements are to be used, just a basic vitamin/
mineral supplement, and food that contains cholesterol needs to be
from the same source and prepared the same way. Then you see which
group lives longer.

Incredibly, such studies are very rare. Instead, if they use lab
animals (which is quite common, of course), they now just look for
"markers," even if it has never been demonstrated that such markes
have any clinical significance in that species of animals. I devoted
a thread on "trans fat" on the nutrition forum on my free web site,
which is at:

http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/

I have nothing to sell you - I am an independent scholar interested in
eating in a way that will result in optimal health (and is also tasty
and satisfying).

Oh, and Ron is totally wrong about omega 3s. In 1948, rats were fed a
fat free diet and were fine, and that directly refuted the 1930 rat
study that claimed "essential fatty acid deficiency" (it turned out
that it was a B vitamin deficiency instead, since they did not know
about that B vitamin at the time). However, the 1930 is still being
cited, whereas the 1948 is not. Do you know why? Could it be that
some people want to sell you omega 3 supplements?

My great grandfather lived to be over 100, yet had no source of omega
3s (except the tiniest of trace amounts one might find in common
vegetables). He ate no flax, nor any oily fish (very rarely ate a
small piece of flounder). If you go to my site, you will see an essay
entitled "Fish oil quotes you might want to read." This is the
information people like Ron, for whatever reason, don't seem to want
the general public to know about. For me, I have avoided any source
of omega 3s (again, except for tiny trace amounts that are just about
unavoidable) since about 2002, and have seen only benefits, though
according to people like Ron, I should be dead by now. I have
challenged people like him to a variety of experiments, such as
repeating the 1948 rat study, but they are unwilling to accept
(because the "loser" must pay for all expenses). In the USA, we like
to say, "put your money where your mouth is," because we know that
only a fool with do so if he does not believe in his claim. But
again, you can do your own experiment if you have several hundred
dollars to spare, along with a little free time. In fact, if
anything, rats would need more "essential fatty acids" than humans, so
they are a great animal model to use to test this claim. Why Ron
ignores a direct refutation experiment appears to have something to do
with a lack of understanding of the scientific method, though in
others it's more likely related to a "conflict of interest."

Just to be clear, when I said that the trans bonds are not likely to
be the problem:

1. Meaning that a fatty acids with a trans bond is no worse than a
similar molecule with a cis unsaturated bond, if all else is equal,
such as the same kind and amount of antioxidant protection. In fact,
due to it's configuration, it could be "healthier," though this
depends on other factors. Too much water is toxic, so it's always
possible to do something that appears to demonstrate that something is
not healthy. This is why the scientific method is required;
otherwise, it's very easy to demonstrate that just about anything
appears to be "healthy" or "unhealthy."

2. The unsaturated bonds that have been made into saturated ones
during the hydrogenation process act as if they were saturated (see
the massive Shils and Young nutrition textbook for citations, for
example), but one needs to control for other possibly relevant
factors, such as toxic nickel introduced during hydrogenation.

Tunderbar said:

Jim Chinnis said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

Don't forget our disappearing sidewalks and our dependence on cars, trucks,
escalators, and labor-saving tools of all kinds. It's a double whammy.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

Oddly... I remember cars in the 1960s. And last time I looked at old
newsreels and documentaries, there were cars in the 1950's too, and
the 1940's. And elevators and other labour saving devices as well. But
we did not start getting fat 'til the 1970's, then we got fatter in
the 1980's and we really got fat in the 1990's and the trend
continues.

You have not convinced us that there was a major shift in driving and
exercise habits *starting* in the 1970's and ongoing since then.

TC

More calories due to less time to prepare home cooked meals and more
reliance on fast foods or refined carb snacks which are not meant to
satisfy hunger for more than a couple of hours.

"Jim Chinnis" <[email hidden]> wrote
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Szczepan Bialek" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

"Jay" <[email hidden]>
wrote:news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently, I have seen a lot of talk about how evil Trans Fats are.
Some years ago, I was told that Margarine or Hydrogenated Vegetable
Oil was better than butter but now the Trans Fat theory reverses the
old one. Question is: Is this just a new theory or an absolute fact?
Any chances of this being reversed a few years later?

No. In the near future all the Vegetable Oils will be sold as the biofuel.
S*

Quoted message said:

There's no way that high-quality extra-virgin olive oil (at, say
$30/liter)
is going to be used for fuel in the near future.

Exactly such one was used for millenium in olive lamps. In the oryginal
receipe for bolonge sauce no olive oil (butter and bacon). Of course
high-quality extra-virgin olive oil is the best for salad.
S*

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:21:43 GMT, Jim Chinnis <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

Don't forget our disappearing sidewalks and our dependence on cars, trucks,
escalators, and labor-saving tools of all kinds. It's a double whammy.

Agreed...oddly, I'm lucky to live in New York and do not own a
car--one walks a LOT here!

Quoted message said:

In 1948, rats were fed a
fat free diet and were fine, and that directly refuted the 1930 rat
study that claimed "essential fatty acid deficiency" (it turned out
that it was a B vitamin deficiency instead, since they did not know
about that B vitamin at the time). However, the 1930 is still being
cited, whereas the 1948 is not. Do you know why?

Probably because instead of being published in a peer-reviewed
scientific journal it was published in an obscure "book of the year"
publication.

Quoted message said:

In fact, if
anything, rats would need more "essential fatty acids" than humans,

Why? In molecular level detail, please.

MattLB

Quoted message said:

1. Meaning that a fatty acids with a trans bond is no worse than a
similar molecule with a cis unsaturated bond, if all else is equal,

Thereby showing you have no understanding of the molecular level
detail at all.

Quoted message said:

In fact,
due to it's configuration, it could be "healthier," though this
depends on other factors.

How could it be healthier and what are those factors?

Quoted message said:

2. The unsaturated bonds that have been made into saturated ones
during the hydrogenation process act as if they were saturated

Still getting this wrong. I see. They *are* saturated. There's no "as
if they were" about it.

MattLB

GMCarter said:

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:21:43 GMT, Jim Chinnis <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

GMCarter <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you need only look at
the overall body mass index (BMI) of US citizens to see how TFA and
high fructose corn syrup have contributed to the epidemic obesity.

Quoted message said:

Don't forget our disappearing sidewalks and our dependence on cars, trucks,
escalators, and labor-saving tools of all kinds. It's a double whammy.

Agreed...oddly, I'm lucky to live in New York and do not own a
car--one walks a LOT here!

Important video relating to HIV and AIDS.

http://www.aidsfraudvideo.com/

HIV=AIDS: Fact or Fraud? One of the most powerful video documentaries
of our time boldly reveals the modern medical-industrial complex's
dire descent into utter corruption. This feature-length expose
explains exactly how the 300-Billion-dollar AID$ fraud began, why HIV
can NOT be the cause of AIDS, what the real causes could be, and who
manipulates the public's good intentions while poisoning hundreds of
thousands with toxic drugs that cause the very disease they are
supposed to prevent. This is a systematic dissection of the HIV/AID$
machine and how they hijacked a program designed to fight a worldwide
plight of human suffering and drove it down the road to hell. Yet this
program offers hope, inspired by the courage and articulate arguments
of a group of growing voices internationally challenging the
HIV=AIDS=DEATH hysteria. A MUST SEE for anyone interested in truly
understanding the facts about HIV/AID$.

You will meet a number of highly reputable scientists who all agree
that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, including Dr. Peter Duesberg, who was the
first scientist to map the genetic structure of retroviruses. He is
joined by Nobel Prize winners Dr. Kary Mullis and Dr.Walter Gilbert,
along with Dr. David Rasnick, an expert in the field of protease
inhibitors

Is HIV/AIDS the golden idol of junk science? Judge for yourself.
Professionally produced, written and researched, acclaimed by
physicians, scientists, journalists and humanitarians internationally,
this is the video encyclopedia of HIV/AIDS dissident movement! THE
defining documentary on the HIV/AIDS fraud

rocketscience

http://aidsmyth.addr.com/enteraidsmyth.htm

We are a global-reach voluntary group. Our goal is ensuring the
interests of AIDS-diagnosed people are no longer secondary to the
interests of drug suppliers, service providers and the Aids research
industry. Did You Know that many experts now contend AIDS is not a
fatal, incurable condition caused by HIV?

We bring you the voices of alternative scientists and reforming
campaigners worldwide. We are independent of vested pharmaceutical
and medical interests -offering readers and forum members, global news
and leading edge views on diagnosis and treatment.

Most of the information you receive is commercially driven and based
on misleading assumptions or unfounded estimates and predictions. The
symptoms associated with AIDS are treatable using non-toxic, immune
enhancing therapies that have restored health and have enabled those
truly at risk to remain well.

rocketscience

On 10 Apr 2007 14:18:22 -0700, "rocketscience"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

We are a global-reach voluntary group. Our goal is ensuring the
interests of AIDS-diagnosed people are

....forced to die an early death believing a whole load of hogswallop.