Brooks Team Pro - how hard to replace frame?

Roger Sacilotto said:

Long story short, I bent the rails on my year-old Brooks Team Professional
saddle. I got the rails 90% back in shape, but I would like to try to
replace the frame. I can figure out how to remove the old frame (keeping
the nose piece intact), but I have no idea how to re-rivet a new frame. Do
I need a special tool? I imagine that I would place the rivet through the
saddle and frame, put the saddle upside-down and pound over the underside
of the rivet (????) to flare it out, then hammer the rivet head to conform
to the saddle surface.

Has anyone tried this out? I figure if I can't do it myself, I might as
well buy a new saddle for what I imagine the repair cost to be. On the
other hand, the leather is nicely broken in, and is really comfortable, so
I would prefer to keep it if it's economical.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Roger

http://www.wallbike.com sells Brooks parts, including frames. I'd get
in touch with them. Maybe they could even do the work for you.

Roger Sacilotto said:

Long story short, I bent the rails on my year-old Brooks Team Professional
saddle. I got the rails 90% back in shape, but I would like to try to
replace the frame. I can figure out how to remove the old frame (keeping
the nose piece intact), but I have no idea how to re-rivet a new frame. Do
I need a special tool? I imagine that I would place the rivet through the
saddle and frame, put the saddle upside-down and pound over the underside
of the rivet (????) to flare it out, then hammer the rivet head to conform
to the saddle surface.

Has anyone tried this out? I figure if I can't do it myself, I might as
well buy a new saddle for what I imagine the repair cost to be. On the
other hand, the leather is nicely broken in, and is really comfortable, so
I would prefer to keep it if it's economical.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Roger

I'd get a new saddle. But, if you don't want to do that, why not send it
to Brooks? Bet they could do it for ya.

http://www.brookssaddles.com/brooksengland.html

Downing Street - Smethwick
West Midlands B66 2PA
England
United Kingdom

[email hidden]

BC
has Google

"BCDrums" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roger Sacilotto said:

Long story short, I bent the rails on my year-old Brooks Team

Professional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

saddle. I got the rails 90% back in shape, but I would like to try to
replace the frame. I can figure out how to remove the old frame

(keeping

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the nose piece intact), but I have no idea how to re-rivet a new

frame. Do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I need a special tool? I imagine that I would place the rivet through

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

saddle and frame, put the saddle upside-down and pound over the

underside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the rivet (????) to flare it out, then hammer the rivet head to

conform

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to the saddle surface.

Has anyone tried this out? I figure if I can't do it myself, I might

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well buy a new saddle for what I imagine the repair cost to be. On

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other hand, the leather is nicely broken in, and is really

comfortable, so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would prefer to keep it if it's economical.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Roger

I'd get a new saddle. But, if you don't want to do that, why not send it
to Brooks? Bet they could do it for ya.

http://www.brookssaddles.com/brooksengland.html

Downing Street - Smethwick
West Midlands B66 2PA
England
United Kingdom

[email hidden]

BC
has Google

The cost of shipping to and from Brooks plus repairs may exceed the price
of a new saddle.

I've seen at least one person on the internet who does repairs and
modifications on Brooks saddles. There are probably more.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

The cost of shipping to and from Brooks plus repairs may exceed the price
of a new saddle.

I've seen at least one person on the internet who does repairs and
modifications on Brooks saddles. There are probably more.

Chas.

I think it's a total loss, better send it to me and I'll scrap it for
you.

Actually, it's not hard at all to do but how hard depends on your
current rivet style. I've rebuilt a couple of saddles with copper
rivets. You might need to do all of them to get a good match.

Basically you just remove the old rivets by drilling the back side
off, then insert the new rivet from above. Get a vise and some steel
rods - 1/2" and 3/4" - clamped in to give you a small anvil
surface(s). Place saddle so rivet top side is on top of "anvil" and
saddle is upside down. Hammer on the bottom with a large flat end
punch to flatten the inner side of the rivet. You need three hands -
one to hold the saddle in place, one to hold the punch, and one to
hammer. Flip it over, place the rivet so the flat end is on your
"anvil" (1/2" or 3/4" as appropriate). Hammer with small metal working
hammer to shape top. Use a rough file and shape. Hammer again. Shape
again. Work with finer file. Eventually it looks good.

If the rivets are the uniform small type, you can dispense with some
of the shaping but you need to be more careful in the initial under
side flattening. You may want to trim the rivets stem with some
cutters before you use them if they will be too long, you want enough
poking through that you can get a good expansion but not so much that
you end up bending the shaft or can't get it tight.

It's a whole lot easier if you are going to refinish the leather as
you can sand the leather lightly overall and make the rivets smooth.
You'll need to be a lot more careful with the files if you don't
intend to refinish.

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

The cost of shipping to and from Brooks plus repairs may exceed the

price

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of a new saddle.

I've seen at least one person on the internet who does repairs and
modifications on Brooks saddles. There are probably more.

Chas.

I think it's a total loss, better send it to me and I'll scrap it for
you.

Actually, it's not hard at all to do but how hard depends on your
current rivet style. I've rebuilt a couple of saddles with copper
rivets. You might need to do all of them to get a good match.

Basically you just remove the old rivets by drilling the back side
off, then insert the new rivet from above. Get a vise and some steel
rods - 1/2" and 3/4" - clamped in to give you a small anvil
surface(s). Place saddle so rivet top side is on top of "anvil" and
saddle is upside down. Hammer on the bottom with a large flat end
punch to flatten the inner side of the rivet. You need three hands -
one to hold the saddle in place, one to hold the punch, and one to
hammer. Flip it over, place the rivet so the flat end is on your
"anvil" (1/2" or 3/4" as appropriate). Hammer with small metal working
hammer to shape top. Use a rough file and shape. Hammer again. Shape
again. Work with finer file. Eventually it looks good.

If the rivets are the uniform small type, you can dispense with some
of the shaping but you need to be more careful in the initial under
side flattening. You may want to trim the rivets stem with some
cutters before you use them if they will be too long, you want enough
poking through that you can get a good expansion but not so much that
you end up bending the shaft or can't get it tight.

It's a whole lot easier if you are going to refinish the leather as
you can sand the leather lightly overall and make the rivets smooth.
You'll need to be a lot more careful with the files if you don't
intend to refinish.

I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails. Had an
Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken rails. I cut the
Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to thread with a hex die. The
Ideale was attached to it's rails with nuts. The Brooks front end fit
without a problem.

The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy clamp
designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could never get it to
stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what ever happened to it.

Chas.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

The cost of shipping to and from Brooks plus repairs may exceed the

price

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of a new saddle.
I've seen at least one person on the internet who does repairs and
modifications on Brooks saddles. There are probably more.

Quoted message said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I think it's a total loss, better send it to me and I'll scrap it for
you.

Actually, it's not hard at all to do but how hard depends on your
current rivet style. I've rebuilt a couple of saddles with copper
rivets. You might need to do all of them to get a good match.

Basically you just remove the old rivets by drilling the back side
off, then insert the new rivet from above. Get a vise and some steel
rods - 1/2" and 3/4" - clamped in to give you a small anvil
surface(s). Place saddle so rivet top side is on top of "anvil" and
saddle is upside down. Hammer on the bottom with a large flat end
punch to flatten the inner side of the rivet. You need three hands -
one to hold the saddle in place, one to hold the punch, and one to
hammer. Flip it over, place the rivet so the flat end is on your
"anvil" (1/2" or 3/4" as appropriate). Hammer with small metal working
hammer to shape top. Use a rough file and shape. Hammer again. Shape
again. Work with finer file. Eventually it looks good.

If the rivets are the uniform small type, you can dispense with some
of the shaping but you need to be more careful in the initial under
side flattening. You may want to trim the rivets stem with some
cutters before you use them if they will be too long, you want enough
poking through that you can get a good expansion but not so much that
you end up bending the shaft or can't get it tight.

It's a whole lot easier if you are going to refinish the leather as
you can sand the leather lightly overall and make the rivets smooth.
You'll need to be a lot more careful with the files if you don't
intend to refinish.

* * Chas said:

I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails. Had an
Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken rails. I cut the
Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to thread with a hex die. The
Ideale was attached to it's rails with nuts. The Brooks front end fit
without a problem.

The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy clamp
designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could never get it to
stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what ever happened to it.

You could have bought the Zeus Idéale seat pin top clips to mount the
Rebour 90IR aluminum saddle frame on a Campagnolo #1044 or Zeus copy. I
rode that setup for many years, until it was loaned/wrecked.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Sacilotto said:

Long story short, I bent the rails on my year-old Brooks Team
Professional saddle. I got the rails 90% back in shape, but I would
like to try to replace the frame. I can figure out how to remove the
old frame (keeping the nose piece intact), but I have no idea how to
re-rivet a new frame. Do I need a special tool? I imagine that I
would place the rivet through the saddle and frame, put the saddle
upside-down and pound over the underside of the rivet (????) to flare
it out, then hammer the rivet head to conform to the saddle surface.

Has anyone tried this out? I figure if I can't do it myself, I might
as well buy a new saddle for what I imagine the repair cost to be.
On the other hand, the leather is nicely broken in, and is really
comfortable, so I would prefer to keep it if it's economical.

If nobody's pointed it out already, you can readily get all the parts
you need from Wallingford Bikes in NOLA:

http://www.wallbike.com/brooks/partsandaccessories.html

For the riveting, looks like a hammer, anvil and drift punch ought to
get you through it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

* * Chas said:

I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails.
Had an Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken rails.
I cut the Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to thread
with a hex die. The Ideale was attached to it's rails with nuts.
The Brooks front end fit without a problem.

The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy clamp
designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could never get
it to stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what ever happened
to it.

You could have bought the Zeus Idéale seat pin top clips to mount the
Rebour 90IR aluminum saddle frame on a Campagnolo #1044 or Zeus copy.
I rode that setup for many years, until it was loaned/wrecked.

Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes someone to tell you
that you haven't. I'd like to have seen a picture of that setup.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails.
Had an Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken rails.
I cut the Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to thread
with a hex die. The Ideale was attached to it's rails with nuts.
The Brooks front end fit without a problem.

The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy clamp
designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could never get
it to stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what ever happened
to it.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

You could have bought the Zeus Idéale seat pin top clips to mount the
Rebour 90IR aluminum saddle frame on a Campagnolo #1044 or Zeus copy.
I rode that setup for many years, until it was loaned/wrecked.

Tim McNamara said:

Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes someone to tell you
that you haven't. I'd like to have seen a picture of that setup

That was an interesting search odyssey. Here's the 1970 Ron Kitching
Handbook:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/IDEL4TIM.JPG

Note the 'long' versions, matching Campagnolo's #1044 post lengths, are
significantly shorter than today's 250mm 'short' posts.
c.f. periodic comments on Jobst's fit.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas wrote:
> I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails.
> Had an Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken rails.
> I cut the Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to thread
> with a hex die. The Ideale was attached to it's rails with nuts.
> The Brooks front end fit without a problem.
>
> The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy clamp
> designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could never get
> it to stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what ever happened
> to it.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

You could have bought the Zeus Idéale seat pin top clips to mount the
Rebour 90IR aluminum saddle frame on a Campagnolo #1044 or Zeus copy.
I rode that setup for many years, until it was loaned/wrecked.

Tim McNamara said:

Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes someone to tell

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you haven't. I'd like to have seen a picture of that setup

That was an interesting search odyssey. Here's the 1970 Ron Kitching
Handbook:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/IDEL4TIM.JPG

Note the 'long' versions, matching Campagnolo's #1044 post lengths, are
significantly shorter than today's 250mm 'short' posts.
c.f. periodic comments on Jobst's fit.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

We sold Zeus and I never saw one of those model 53 Ideale seat posts. I'd
probably still be riding that saddle if I had.

Chas.

In article <[email hidden]>,

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* * Chas wrote:
> I once kludged a Brooks Pro saddle onto Ideale flat alloy rails.
> Had an Ideale with trashed leather and a Brooks with broken
> rails. I cut the Brooks rails off in the rear leaving enough to
> thread with a hex die. The Ideale was attached to it's rails with
> nuts. The Brooks front end fit without a problem.
>
> The saddle worked fine except for the old style Ideale alloy
> clamp designed to mount on a straight alloy seat post. I could
> never get it to stay at the correct angle. Don't remember what
> ever happened to it.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

You could have bought the Zeus Idéale seat pin top clips to mount
the Rebour 90IR aluminum saddle frame on a Campagnolo #1044 or
Zeus copy. I rode that setup for many years, until it was
loaned/wrecked.

Tim McNamara said:

Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes someone to tell
you that you haven't. I'd like to have seen a picture of that
setup

That was an interesting search odyssey. Here's the 1970 Ron Kitching
Handbook: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/IDEL4TIM.JPG

Cool, thanks for finding that!

Quoted message said:

Note the 'long' versions, matching Campagnolo's #1044 post lengths,
are significantly shorter than today's 250mm 'short' posts. c.f.
periodic comments on Jobst's fit.

We do use much longer seatposts than used to be the case. 180 mm was
the norm, IIRC- we used to have about a fistful of seatpost sticking out
of the frame in the old days. I still find that to be a comfortable fit.

I sent an email to Wallingford Bicycle, here's their reply:

Hi Roger

Take a look at the bottom of this page <http://www.wallbike.com/
Swift.html>. There is a picture of the guy who sets rivets for Brooks
at his workbench. The long shaft that is sticking up from the bench
is his anvil. You can see his hammer. He sets the rivets by holding
the bottom of the rivet firmly against the anvil and pounding on the
top. This mushrooms the bottom of the rivet.

So, to do this yourself, you need to get the old rivets out. This is
easiest with a hand grinder but you can drill them out also. A bolt
chucked up in a vice would make a satisfactory anvil.

The most frustrating part of the job might be re-assembling the
saddle. Unless your saddle is really stretched it will be hard to get
the end of the tension bolt into its cup in the nose piece. At the
factory they have a hydraulic saddle stretcher. If you don't have one
of those then it could be a real wrestling match trying to pry the
nose out far enough to let the bolt drop in.

You do have an advantage in that you don't need to replace the nose
piece. Those rivets are harder to get to.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Regards

Bill Laine
Wallingford Bicycle Parts
888 731 3537
http://www.wallbike.com