Mashing

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

After reading this:

http://www.timetrialtraining.co.uk/PPwhyfastpedalingmakescyclists.htm

I wonder if part of the reason I got dropped after 410km of my latest
Trondheim Oslo is that I am a masher and thus unnecessarily used up my
fuel too soon.

Getting dropped after 410km seems like an act of mercy.

Quoted message said:

The article claims that higher cadences while no more efficient in
terms of oxygen use, breathing rate and blood lactate levels are much
more efficient in terms of glycogen and fat metabolism. My first
thought was that the cyclists in the tests were probably training at
cadences comparable to the high cadences in the test and thus were
adapted to those cadences, and that if they trained at lower cadences,
they would be more efficient at those lower cadences. But then there
is the whole slow-twitch vs fast-twitch argument. Is this reason
enough for me to try to temper my mashing tendencies?

Low cadences result in higher force loads on the muscles. If these higher force loads are still below an acceptable threshold, no problem. At 85% VOmax, a relatively high level of exertion, this threshold is likely exceeded at 50 rpm. However, if you're riding for over 400 km, you're probably at lower level of exertion, and the inefficiency of moving your legs around in an increased number of circles may not be justified. The higher the effort level, the higher the optimal cadence. If you're riding at a higher power level on hills, for example, make sure you shift down and keep the cadence higher.

Working on pedal mechanics is always a good idea, of course, and it becomes more critical the more you're pedaling.

Dan

On Jul 3, 11:29 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

After reading this:

Quoted message said:

http://www.timetrialtraining.co.uk/PPwhyfastpedalingmakescyclists.htm

Quoted message said:

I wonder if part of the reason I got dropped after 410km of my latest
Trondheim Oslo is that I am a masher and thus unnecessarily used up my
fuel too soon.

Getting dropped after 410km seems like an act of mercy.

Not when it means I ended up spending 1.5 hours longer in the saddle
riding alone than those who dropped me!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The article claims that higher cadences while no more efficient in
terms of oxygen use, breathing rate and blood lactate levels are much
more efficient in terms of glycogen and fat metabolism. My first
thought was that the cyclists in the tests were probably training at
cadences comparable to the high cadences in the test and thus were
adapted to those cadences, and that if they trained at lower cadences,
they would be more efficient at those lower cadences. But then there
is the whole slow-twitch vs fast-twitch argument. Is this reason
enough for me to try to temper my mashing tendencies?

Low cadences result in higher force loads on the muscles. If these higher force loads are still below an acceptable threshold, no problem. At 85% VOmax, a relatively high level of exertion, this threshold is likely exceeded at 50 rpm. However, if you're riding for over 400 km, you're probably at lower level of exertion, and the inefficiency of moving your legs around in an increased number of circles may not be justified. The higher the effort level, the higher the optimal cadence. If you're riding at a higher power level on hills, for example, make sure you shift down and keep the cadence higher.

Working on pedal mechanics is always a good idea, of course, and it becomes more critical the more you're pedaling.

Dan

While I consider myself a masher I am nowhere near 50 rpm. I don't
measure cadence, but I am frequently one or two cogs heavier a gear
than those I ride with. I am particularly guilty of mashing on hills.
And as I have previoulsy attributed my getting dropped in this
particular case to overdoing it in the early hills, I suppose my
mashing may have exacerbated things. While the overall effort level
for the super long ride may have been relatively low, there were quite
a number of kilometers with easily over 85% VOmax. More like 95%.

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Joseph

Quoted message said:

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

You want mashing, this is mashing:
http://www.midcalracing.com/kaiser2004.htm

I did this ride Saturday, and was overgeared in my 39/28.

Quoted message said:

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Practice riding hills in a small gear, and you'll get accustomed to higher cadence.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if part of the reason I got dropped after 410km

I have no answers to you but my hat's off to you for being at 410 km to
be dropped!

-paul

email hidden said:

While I consider myself a masher I am nowhere near 50 rpm. I don't
measure cadence, but I am frequently one or two cogs heavier a gear
than those I ride with. I am particularly guilty of mashing on hills.
And as I have previoulsy attributed my getting dropped in this
particular case to overdoing it in the early hills, I suppose my
mashing may have exacerbated things. While the overall effort level
for the super long ride may have been relatively low, there were quite
a number of kilometers with easily over 85% VOmax. More like 95%.

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Cadence is a red herring. I read that somewhere.

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power. The issue isn't always fuel, although by 410 km,
I suppose everything is about fuel. The mashing/spinning
issue, however, I think is about muscle fatigue caused
by recruiting more muscle for high pedal force effort.
Once you fatigue yourself, it doesn't matter how much
carbs and fat you have on board, you're going to blow.

Back to mashing as a symptom. IMO, people ride at lower
cadences because it is a little easier mentally and
requires slightly less aerobic effort, so it feels easier
in the short run, although it may lead to fatigue in the
long run. The problem is likely that you are mashing
up hills to keep up with the rest of the group, some of
whom are ahead of you on watts/kg. Riding a higher gear
and mashing hard is a convenient way to hang with these
people because the alternative is a greater aerobic
expenditure and that makes you (OK, me) feel like you
are breathing really hard and going to explode.

But doing this repetitively over a long ride means you'll
eventually fatigue and crack. Getting more comfortable
with spinning a lower gear may help with this, but it
is unlikely to cure the disease (Wattage Deficit Disorder).

Ben
RBR WDD Support Group

On Jul 3, 9:25 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Jul 3, 2:48 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

While I consider myself a masher I am nowhere near 50 rpm. I don't
measure cadence, but I am frequently one or two cogs heavier a gear
than those I ride with. I am particularly guilty of mashing on hills.
And as I have previoulsy attributed my getting dropped in this
particular case to overdoing it in the early hills, I suppose my
mashing may have exacerbated things. While the overall effort level
for the super long ride may have been relatively low, there were quite
a number of kilometers with easily over 85% VOmax. More like 95%.

Quoted message said:

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

Quoted message said:

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Cadence is a red herring. I read that somewhere.

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power. The issue isn't always fuel, although by 410 km,
I suppose everything is about fuel. The mashing/spinning
issue, however, I think is about muscle fatigue caused
by recruiting more muscle for high pedal force effort.
Once you fatigue yourself, it doesn't matter how much
carbs and fat you have on board, you're going to blow.

Back to mashing as a symptom. IMO, people ride at lower
cadences because it is a little easier mentally and
requires slightly less aerobic effort, so it feels easier
in the short run, although it may lead to fatigue in the
long run. The problem is likely that you are mashing
up hills to keep up with the rest of the group, some of
whom are ahead of you on watts/kg. Riding a higher gear
and mashing hard is a convenient way to hang with these
people because the alternative is a greater aerobic
expenditure and that makes you (OK, me) feel like you
are breathing really hard and going to explode.

But doing this repetitively over a long ride means you'll
eventually fatigue and crack. Getting more comfortable
with spinning a lower gear may help with this, but it
is unlikely to cure the disease (Wattage Deficit Disorder).

Ben
RBR WDD Support Group

Dropped after 410km? Jeez you guys are freaks. Rejoin the human
race, please.

Damn.

bar said:

On Jul 3, 9:25 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Jul 3, 2:48 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

While I consider myself a masher I am nowhere near 50 rpm. I don't
measure cadence, but I am frequently one or two cogs heavier a gear
than those I ride with. I am particularly guilty of mashing on hills.
And as I have previoulsy attributed my getting dropped in this
particular case to overdoing it in the early hills, I suppose my
mashing may have exacerbated things. While the overall effort level
for the super long ride may have been relatively low, there were quite
a number of kilometers with easily over 85% VOmax. More like 95%.
I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!
But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Cadence is a red herring. I read that somewhere.

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power. The issue isn't always fuel, although by 410 km,
I suppose everything is about fuel. The mashing/spinning
issue, however, I think is about muscle fatigue caused
by recruiting more muscle for high pedal force effort.
Once you fatigue yourself, it doesn't matter how much
carbs and fat you have on board, you're going to blow.

Back to mashing as a symptom. IMO, people ride at lower
cadences because it is a little easier mentally and
requires slightly less aerobic effort, so it feels easier
in the short run, although it may lead to fatigue in the
long run. The problem is likely that you are mashing
up hills to keep up with the rest of the group, some of
whom are ahead of you on watts/kg. Riding a higher gear
and mashing hard is a convenient way to hang with these
people because the alternative is a greater aerobic
expenditure and that makes you (OK, me) feel like you
are breathing really hard and going to explode.

But doing this repetitively over a long ride means you'll
eventually fatigue and crack. Getting more comfortable
with spinning a lower gear may help with this, but it
is unlikely to cure the disease (Wattage Deficit Disorder).

Ben
RBR WDD Support Group

Dropped after 410km? Jeez you guys are freaks. Rejoin the human
race, please.

Damn.

He was TRYING but after 410km, it's hard! Give a guy a break!

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dan Connelly d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

Quoted message said:

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

You want mashing, this is mashing:
http://www.midcalracing.com/kaiser2004.htm

On a fixed gear? Holy [censored]. That's, um, dedication.

Quoted message said:

I did this ride Saturday, and was overgeared in my 39/28.

Was it fun, Dan?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Practice riding hills in a small gear, and you'll get accustomed to higher
cadence.

I've tried that a ton of times. Practiced it over and over, no slipping back into
bigger gears but it didn't help. I always slowly settled back into the same
(percieved) cadence and just went slower because of the small gear. So I eventually
pop it up a few gears and my speed picks up again. I think Ben is probably correct
when he says that pushing big gears causes more muscle fatigue but I have a hard time
being able to compare between the muscle fatigue I get from riding bigger gears to
that I might get spinning (mostly due to the same-cadence-no-matter-what-gear aspect).

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Quoted message said:

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power.

Mashing is only a symptom of disease when you're running out of power,
i.e., mashing is a relative term.

On Jul 4, 12:32 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

I did [Climb to Kaiser] Saturday, and was overgeared in my 39/28

Plot cadence vs. crank torque, with the flat part of the ride in one
color and the climb in another.

Quoted message said:

Practice riding hills in a small gear, and you'll get accustomed to higher cadence.

Perhaps, but I would think raising power (which is what Joseph really
needs to do) will also result in higher cadence.

bar said:

On Jul 3, 9:25 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Jul 3, 2:48 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power. The issue isn't always fuel, although by 410 km,
I suppose everything is about fuel.

Dropped after 410km? Jeez you guys are freaks. Rejoin the human
race, please.

Damn.

Dumbass,

That's why we need the dope.

But seriously, talk to Joseph. I always used to get
dropped 150 km into the ride. I've never ridden 410 km.
I did like how in the newspaper photo gallery Joseph
posted of the race, most of the pics are of riders
sleeping.

Ben
sucked at racing, good at sleeping

I said:

Plot cadence vs. crank torque, with the flat part of the ride in one
color and the climb in another.

And overlay with power contours.

Quoted message said:

On Jul 4, 12:32 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

I did [Climb to Kaiser] Saturday, and was overgeared in my 39/28

Plot cadence vs. crank torque, with the flat part of the ride in one
color and the climb in another.

What do you think this would show?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Practice riding hills in a small gear, and you'll get accustomed to higher cadence.

Perhaps, but I would think raising power (which is what Joseph really
needs to do) will also result in higher cadence.

Indeed I need more power, and I'm working on it. I'm just concerned
that trimming the turbo may be for naught if I run out of gas before
the finish anyway.

Why do you think the cadence will self-adjust upward with more power?
In the last 3 years I've had a significant increase in power, but
cadence has been more or less constant (I think).

Joseph

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dan Connelly d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I supose easy flatland cruising with low cadence, and spin up hills.
Basically avoid high forces while keeping the pedals speed as low as
possible to avoid unnecessary costs of motion, but not at the expense
of high force generation. The exact opposite of what happens on my
fixed gear bike I do most of my training on!

Quoted message said:

You want mashing, this is mashing:
http://www.midcalracing.com/kaiser2004.htm

On a fixed gear? Holy [censored]. That's, um, dedication.

Quoted message said:

I did this ride Saturday, and was overgeared in my 39/28.

Was it fun, Dan?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But there are actually two problems. One is preserving fuel for super
long rides, the other is maximum power to not get dropped on hills for
shorter races where fuel is not an issue. Are the two mutually
exclusive? I wonder why my body homes in on mashing level cadences?

Quoted message said:

Practice riding hills in a small gear, and you'll get accustomed to higher
cadence.

I've tried that a ton of times. Practiced it over and over, no slipping back into
bigger gears but it didn't help. I always slowly settled back into the same
(percieved) cadence and just went slower because of the small gear. So I eventually
pop it up a few gears and my speed picks up again. I think Ben is probably correct
when he says that pushing big gears causes more muscle fatigue but I have a hard time
being able to compare between the muscle fatigue I get from riding bigger gears to
that I might get spinning (mostly due to the same-cadence-no-matter-what-gear aspect).

That's exactly what happens to me. I see everyone else in the 25 and
I'm in the 23, so I try the 25 and all that happens is I go slower.

Joseph

email hidden said:

That's exactly what happens to me. I see everyone else in the 25 and
I'm in the 23, so I try the 25 and all that happens is I go slower.

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/wattage/components/components.html

email hidden said:

Quoted message said:

Plot cadence vs. crank torque, with the flat part of the ride in one
color and the climb in another.

What do you think this would show?

Well, a simple version of what's shown here:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/wattage/cadence/cadence-plots.html

Dan knows how to make a rough estimate of the gradient from power and
speed data, so rather than use a crude "flat vs. hill" comparison he
could actually use gradient bins.

Quoted message said:

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power.

And power comes from torque and pedal speed.

The whole "cadence doesn't matter" crew ignores the real gains which can be made in pedal efficiency. Obviously, if I reduce the inefficiency in turning a pedal, I can turn the pedal more. A smoother pedal stroke supports a higher cadence, a higher cadence supports higher pedal speed, higher pedal speed supports more power.

Dan

On Jul 4, 2:37 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Obviously, if I reduce the inefficiency in turning a pedal, I can turn the
pedal more.

It is not obvious to me that if you reduce the inefficiency in turning
a pedal you can produce more power.

On Jul 4, 2:37 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IMO, mashing is a symptom of the disease rather than
a cause of it. The disease, of course, is not enough
power.

And power comes from torque and pedal speed.

The whole "cadence doesn't matter" crew ignores the real gains which can be made in pedal efficiency. Obviously, if I reduce the inefficiency in turning a pedal, I can turn the pedal more. A smoother pedal stroke supports a higher cadence, a higher cadence supports higher pedal speed, higher pedal speed supports more power.

Dan

Or one can just avoid the potential losses from pedaling at high speed
with poor efficiency and pedal at low speed with high force presumably
with just as inefficient a stroke, but overall less waste.

I guess the question comes down to distribution of muscle fiber types
and at what force levels these are recruited. But since cadences are
even at their widest in a narrow band compared to power. In other
words pros pedal maybe 10% faster than I do, but generate easy 2x the
power, so they are generally applying 2x the force with generally much
less muscle mass than I have, so I don't know that the muscle fiber
argument goes anywhere.

Joseph