Powered cycles

Owen said:

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor assisted bicyles.

These rotten things are the antithesis of good cycling, they don't promote health, they spew out stinking inefficiently burnt gases and fly past you like a real motor bike.

Are they referring to internal combustion engines, or electric
motors, or both? My understanding is the power-assisted bikes
cannot be rated at over 200W, so they should be comparable
with a powerful conventional cyclist and shouldn't be flying
past like a motorbike.

Quoted message said:

Why on earth would the BFA want to do such a thing? (being paid by the manufactures to do so?)

Well, at least they aren't using a 3L engine to swing tonnes
of steel around the place. That has to be an improvement.

Quoted message said:

Owen said:

Why on earth would the BFA want to do such a thing? (being paid by the manufactures to do so?)

Well, at least they aren't using a 3L engine to swing tonnes
of steel around the place. That has to be an improvement.

True, but they should be coming from a position where they are
promoting the use of "no engine" vehicles, so it's really a step
backwards.

Graeme

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor assisted bicyles.

I suspect that it is electric assisted.

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor assisted bicyles.

These rotten things are the antithesis of good cycling, they don't promote health, they spew out stinking inefficiently burnt gases and fly past you like a real motor bike.

Why on earth would the BFA want to do such a thing? (being paid by the manufactures to do so?)

When my blood stops boiling, I will send them a nastygram giving them my views.

Then to add to the drivel of their section, they report that "each kilometer you ride saves the same amount of CO2 produced from running a 60 watt incadescent light globe for close to five hours"

Well how much CO2 is that?

They are getting worse that television

Owen

*sniff* *sniff* Is this a troll?

Oh well, anyway, I don't read "Australian Cyclist" nor do I know who
or what BFA is, but it varies from state to state. For example in NSW
the current limit is 200W *peak* power output for motor assisted
bicycles (see VSI27 on the RTA website). This is regardless of motive
power, i.e electric or internal combustion, 200W peak power output is
it.

Most countries allow a 500W limit, even the ones with an oil man in
charge like the USA. I think the EU is 250W, but 500W is a more
realistic target.

As for the old "it doesn't promote cycling, blah blah blah" argument,
I'm afraid it doesn't hold water anymore than the "long tailpipe"
theory for electric cars. Speaking as a (currently) fat [censored] who
cycled *everywhere* as a kid but had the normal 15 year lay off once I
got my licence, I can tell you that not only do electric bikes promote
cycling, but when used correctly they will build one's fitness to the
point where one can retire the electric bike and "graduate" to a non
powered bike completely pain free.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as the old saying goes
(though precisely why anyone would want to waste honey catching flies
remains a mystery to me). So promoting the use of zero emission
electric bicycles which will encourage folks to leave their smog boxes
in the garage is going to net a lot more cyclists than attempting to
shame them once a year into a ride to work day or somesuch where they
sweat and gasp their way to work all the while remembering why they
normally leave the bike hanging on the garage wall.

I'm not a huge fan of internal combustion powered bicycles, though
many people favour them over electric bikes due to their greater
range. Personally I hate ICE powered bikes, and truth be told I
seriously doubt any of them are less than 1kW.

I built more than a few electric bikes but eventually settled on a
$400 job from Kmart. My bike is also available overseas and is
shunned due to it's low power output, but I liked it because I enjoy
pedalling. In addition to higher speed and range, the pedalling
relieves boredom, is great exercise and the motor is there to fall
back on when you run out of puff. There are some insanely priced kits
available, but although the components on the Kmart bikes would make
most here cringe in horror, they're still better value by far IMO.

I haven't ridden my electric bike for a very long time and I doubt I
will ride it again except for laughs, I've long since "graduated" (in
fact I'm as fast or faster on a regular bicycle these days) so it's
done it's job. Would you rather share the road with a 4WD or a cheap
electric bike? Mind you, the fat slob on the electric bike will
probably beat you up the hill, still better than sucking in fumes
though ;-)

BTW, when I say electric bike, I'm talking about something like this:
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7860/kmartebikeql4.jpg
not an abomination like this:
http://i16.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/a6/b9/fd67_12.JPG

These are real beauties, if somewhat expensive:
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_category.php?id=109
Though if pitched as a car replacement it's a different story.
My personal favourite:
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=889

Quoted message said:

Oh well, anyway, I don't read "Australian Cyclist" nor do I know who
or what BFA is, but it varies from state to state. For example in NSW
the current limit is 200W *peak* power output for motor assisted
bicycles (see VSI27 on the RTA website). This is regardless of motive
power, i.e electric or internal combustion, 200W peak power output is
it.

Nice reply. Well written and informative.

Thanks
Andrew
-----
Churchlands, Western Australia
Giant CRX 1; Giant Boulder SE
http://aushiker.com http://backpackgeartest.org http://geocaching.com.au

quote='Graeme Dods'On Jul 2 said:

Owen said:

Why on earth would the BFA want to do such a thing? (being paid by the manufactures to do so?)

Well, at least they aren't using a 3L engine to swing tonnes
of steel around the place. That has to be an improvement.

True, but they should be coming from a position where they are
promoting the use of "no engine" vehicles, so it's really a step
backwards.

Graeme[/QUOTE]No, it is not a step backwards, it is a step forward though, clearly not a big enough step for your liking.

As pointed out earlier. A 0.2 Kw motor is far better than a 100.Kw motor when you consider that in traffic, it will probably get you there in a similar timeframe.

A case in point is a friend of mine. He is mildly disabled, he can walk (and ride a bike) but not too far. Any more than 100-200 metres becomes a problem (and a few ks on a bike). He drives his tonne of steel through Sydney traffic for 44kms each day (22kmsx2) and it takes hime about an hour each way. I have just about talked him into an electric assist bike. He is convinced that he could do it in the same (or less) time and it would cost him a few cents of electricity vs many dollars per day.

Would you prefer him to be on his power assist bike or his tonne and a bit of steel?

This applies to the less fit, old etc. or somply those who say that X km is just that bit too far or I'd do it except for that one great hill I'd have to climb etc.

Whilst I don't know what the cut-off for power should be, even if it is 300w (international standard I believe), that is better than 100Kw - from all perspectives environmental, social, traffic etc.

I hope that you can be convinced

Scotty

Terryc said:

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor
assisted bicyles.

I suspect that it is electric assisted.

Surely that is worse than internal combustion. Current state of the art (and
an electric bicycle isn't) electric vehicles are responsible for more
pollution per km than internal combustion vehicles. That electric power
comes from coal, don'tcha know. That's the coal burnt in power stations,
responsible for more than 70% of our greenhouse gas output. Internal
combustion engines in Australia are responsible for between 5 and 7% of our
greenhouse gas emissions. The trouble is you see the cars every day, and the
power station is out of sight.

Theo

BTW,

Can anyone point me to a few places where on can get one of these bikes (sorry - the Kmart ones don't do it for me) at a reasonable price.

Preferably in the greater Syd region

Thanks

Not sure of the electric Vs ICE argument but, I'm sure that you'd be a fan of a 0.2 Kw motor compared to a 100 Kw version.

quote='Theo Bekkers'Terryc said:

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor
assisted bicyles.

I suspect that it is electric assisted.

Surely that is worse than internal combustion. Current state of the art (and
an electric bicycle isn't) electric vehicles are responsible for more
pollution per km than internal combustion vehicles. That electric power
comes from coal, don'tcha know. That's the coal burnt in power stations,
responsible for more than 70% of our greenhouse gas output. Internal
combustion engines in Australia are responsible for between 5 and 7% of our
greenhouse gas emissions. The trouble is you see the cars every day, and the
power station is out of sight.

Theo[/QUOTE]

Theo Bekkers said:

Terryc said:

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor
assisted bicyles.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that it is electric assisted.

Surely that is worse than internal combustion. Current state of the art (and
an electric bicycle isn't) electric vehicles are responsible for more
pollution per km than internal combustion vehicles. That electric power
comes from coal, don'tcha know. That's the coal burnt in power stations,
responsible for more than 70% of our greenhouse gas output. Internal
combustion engines in Australia are responsible for between 5 and 7% of our
greenhouse gas emissions. The trouble is you see the cars every day, and the
power station is out of sight.

Theo

The "long tailpipe" argument? That's pretty lame, you can do better.

Graeme Dods said:

Quoted message said:

Owen said:

Why on earth would the BFA want to do such a thing? (being paid by the
manufactures to do so?)

Well, at least they aren't using a 3L engine to swing tonnes
of steel around the place. That has to be an improvement.

True, but they should be coming from a position where they are
promoting the use of "no engine" vehicles, so it's really a step
backwards.

I'm just in the process of setting up a bike to use one of these:
www.xtracycle.com to enable me to begin to use the car less for our
shopping runs (we are a family of four, living in the suburbs).

To make it more suitable to deal with a load of shopping and the hills
around our area, we could use a StokeMonkey
http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/ but with it's power rating of
up to 430W in the high power mode it would be illegal in Victoria. This is
despite the fact that it only operates as a pedal-assist motor, and it would
be used to assist keeping a heavily loaded bike riding at a reasonable speed
(20-25kmh).

Our other option is to continue to use the Commodore. So would this
electric-assist bike be a step backwards?
--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

On Jul 3, 9:09 am, scotty72 <scotty72.2t4...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Can anyone point me to a few places where on can get one of these bikes
(sorry - the Kmart ones don't do it for me) at a reasonable price.

I recently ordered one of these:
http://www.urbanrevolution.com.au/europed66.htm

They had a special deal for $199 + $139 del = $338.

Unfortunately it has been about 6 weeks now and no bike.
Last week I got a letter saying they had been issued a
stop-sale for an unnapproved device, and say it may be
early August before they can refund my money.

I am a bit sad now. I was really looking forward to my
new toy. I think it was a good price for a folding bike
anyway, even without the electric assist.

scotty72 said:

Not sure of the electric Vs ICE argument but, I'm sure that you'd be a
fan of a 0.2 Kw motor compared to a 100 Kw version.

Certainly. I was saying that a small ICE would likely be more
environmentally friendly than an electric one. I was not suggesting you
equip your bicycle with a 6 litre V8.

Theo

PeteSig said:

Our other option is to continue to use the Commodore. So would this
electric-assist bike be a step backwards?

And here's a great video, showing how you could use a Stokemonkey with a
Christiana bakfiets to transprot the family

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Surely that is worse than internal combustion. Current state of the
art (and an electric bicycle isn't) electric vehicles are
responsible for more pollution per km than internal combustion
vehicles. That electric power comes from coal, don'tcha know. That's
the coal burnt in power stations, responsible for more than 70% of
our greenhouse gas output. Internal combustion engines in Australia
are responsible for between 5 and 7% of our greenhouse gas
emissions. The trouble is you see the cars every day, and the power
station is out of sight.

Quoted message said:

The "long tailpipe" argument? That's pretty lame, you can do better.

Are you suggesting that an electric vehicle is more environmentally friendly
than one with an ICE? Maybe you're right. Very small ICEs are considered to
be a major problem in California. Because there are no regulations on things
like lawnmowers and other powered garden implements, California says they
are a much greater source of pollution than most people would think.

Theo

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:26:06 -0700

Quoted message said:

On Jul 3, 11:09 am, scotty72 <scotty72.2t4...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

BTW,

Can anyone point me to a few places where on can get one of these bikes
(sorry - the Kmart ones don't do it for me) at a reasonable price.

Preferably in the greater Syd region

Thanks

--
scotty72

Kmart bikes are about the best value for money turn-key solutions
available in Australia at the moment AFAIK. Expect to be spat upon if
you enquire at most LBS, though ours did have one, an Avanti Electra
IIRC http://preview.tinyurl.com/26krd6 Aprillia used to make one too,
but I think it was short lived.

Aitkens Motorcycles in Liverpool have one on the floor. Bet you could
get it at les than RRP, it's been there for ages.

Zebee

On 2007-07-03, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Terryc said:

Owen said:

I accidentally read the BFA section of the 'Australian Cyclist"

The BFA is going to bat for an increase in the power of motor
assisted bicyles.

I suspect that it is electric assisted.

Surely that is worse than internal combustion. Current state of the art (and
an electric bicycle isn't) electric vehicles are responsible for more
pollution per km than internal combustion vehicles. That electric power
comes from coal, don'tcha know. That's the coal burnt in power stations,
responsible for more than 70% of our greenhouse gas output. Internal
combustion engines in Australia are responsible for between 5 and 7% of our
greenhouse gas emissions. The trouble is you see the cars every day, and the
power station is out of sight.

Actually, that's a disingenuous argument (apart from the fact that the
vast majority of electric vehicles sold in .au are regenerative
hybrids), although the result is roughly correct.

That 70% of the total CO_2 emission is from electricity vs 7% coming
from cars, is completely irrelevant to the hypothetical emissions from
either of them -- cars represent a far smaller total energy
consumption than our total electricity usage, too. What we are
interested in is the energy efficiency which correlates to how much
CO_2 emission you get per kWh (or km, for that matter) resulting from
car travel of both types.

Modern infernal combustion engines (damned things should never have
been invented) have an energy efficiency (conversion of fuel's
potential energy into kinetic energy) of about 20%. I absolutely fear
the energy efficiency of our 30 year old 500kVA genset onsite here.
Electricity, from generation, transmission over the electric grid to
your house is about 30%[1]. Then you can start to factor in
conversion losses to and from batteries and the motor. Yes, it works
out worse than ICEs, but that 70% vs 7% figure is irrelevant, since
they only deal in totals (and the electricity figures include that
99.99999something% of electricity usage in Australia that is not used
to move a car about) rather than relative numbers of vehicles.

[1] So hot water heaters, our most efficient electrical devices[2],
are about 30% efficient. Sucky, eh?

[2] The big whopping resistor inside your insulated hot water tank
with pretty minimal losses is pretty close to 100% efficient by
itself, if only the generation was as good[3].

[3] As opposed to gas powered hot water which is also pretty darn
close to 100%, but with very small transmission losses[4] (dunno about
generation. Gas is pretty easy to extract though).

[4] I hear the way gas is distributed in Australia is by putting two
redundant Rolls Royce jet turbines at the ports that run off a very
tiny percentage of their own gas input.

--
TimC
Error: Furry Pointer Exception

On 2007-07-03, Andrew Priest (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh well, anyway, I don't read "Australian Cyclist" nor do I know who
or what BFA is, but it varies from state to state. For example in NSW
the current limit is 200W *peak* power output for motor assisted
bicycles (see VSI27 on the RTA website). This is regardless of motive
power, i.e electric or internal combustion, 200W peak power output is
it.

Nice reply. Well written and informative.

Apart from the "zero emissions" part.

Not unless you subscribe to 100% green power, and even then, that's
only an accounting trick.

--
TimC
Anyone seeking the "Relativistic Quantum Mechanics" soft option
course, may wish to leave now. -- Peter Robinson -- Intro lecture to RQM

On 2007-07-03, [email hidden] (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 3, 9:09 am, scotty72 <scotty72.2t4...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Can anyone point me to a few places where on can get one of these bikes
(sorry - the Kmart ones don't do it for me) at a reasonable price.

I recently ordered one of these:
http://www.urbanrevolution.com.au/europed66.htm

They had a special deal for $199 + $139 del = $338.

Unfortunately it has been about 6 weeks now and no bike.
Last week I got a letter saying they had been issued a
stop-sale for an unnapproved device, and say it may be
early August before they can refund my money.

This country is screwed in its priorities. I'm moving to NZ.

--
TimC
"I often hear people claim they perform skills better slightly drunk if
they learned that skill drunk. I wonder if that applies to Perl. Get good
and liquored up, dash off a few scripts, see how you like it." -Rob Chanter