Stuck fixed cup

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

LBS mechanics are both on holiday this week, I really need the bike
next weekend for Exmouth Exodus, don't have access to a vice (and the
surfaces on the fixed cup look pathetic anyway). I'd try an M14 nut
and bolt if I could find one, but certainly anywhere open on Sunday
only goes to M12.

This is a bit of a long shot as I think I've read most of the advice
on the web, but any more ideas? What sort of place would I go to for
bigger nuts and bolts?

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Might be worth saying where you are - you never know, there might be
someone nearby who has what you need.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

LBS mechanics are both on holiday this week, I really need the bike
next weekend for Exmouth Exodus, don't have access to a vice (and the
surfaces on the fixed cup look pathetic anyway). I'd try an M14 nut
and bolt if I could find one, but certainly anywhere open on Sunday
only goes to M12.

This is a bit of a long shot as I think I've read most of the advice
on the web, but any more ideas? What sort of place would I go to for
bigger nuts and bolts?

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Rob

Big stilsons work for me if used with care and kept square to the cup.

http://tinyurl.com/2kc66s

MJP

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

Hmm. Whenever I've used this it's worked like a charm. Not that that's
a lot of help to you.

Quoted message said:

LBS mechanics are both on holiday this week, I really need the bike
next weekend for Exmouth Exodus, don't have access to a vice (and the
surfaces on the fixed cup look pathetic anyway). I'd try an M14 nut
and bolt if I could find one, but certainly anywhere open on Sunday
only goes to M12.

Don't think M14 is a preferred ISO size. The next preferred one is
M16, which will probably be too big.

Quoted message said:

This is a bit of a long shot as I think I've read most of the advice
on the web, but any more ideas? What sort of place would I go to for
bigger nuts and bolts?

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Yes, generally speaking. As a check, you should be turning (or trying
to turn) the fixed cup clockwise.

Tim

Quoted message said:

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Chainwheel side is left hand thread, other side is normal right hand
thread.
Sounds like you need a breaker bar, something to give more leverage.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record sprint mongrel

MJP wrote on 24/06/2007 13:08 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Big stilsons work for me if used with care and kept square to the cup.

http://tinyurl.com/2kc66s

But if you don't have a pair, you might as well buy a bench vice which
will both do the job properly and be useful for lots of other things too.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

If you know someone with welding/brazing gear get them to weld a big nut
or a bit of bar to the cup. It unscrews clockwise (as you face it from
the RHS).

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

LBS mechanics are both on holiday this week, I really need the bike
next weekend for Exmouth Exodus, don't have access to a vice (and the
surfaces on the fixed cup look pathetic anyway). I'd try an M14 nut
and bolt if I could find one, but certainly anywhere open on Sunday
only goes to M12.

This is a bit of a long shot as I think I've read most of the advice
on the web, but any more ideas? What sort of place would I go to for
bigger nuts and bolts?

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Rob

Yes it was left hand thread. A lot of the bottom bracket cups had flats on
them
They were usually in so tight that you could not undo them with a spanner
that fitted the flats
the spanner slipped of the flatts as they were so narrow.

The best technique was to grip the flats in a vice with the frame parrallel
to the ground
then swing the frame around useing the leverage of the long seat tube to
start the thing turning.
Once it started turning it is easy to get off.

in message <[email hidden]>, mb

(') said:

Quoted message said:

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

Chainwheel side is left hand thread, other side is normal right hand
thread.

IF ENGLISH! Check that it is English thread, and not (e.g.) Italian. Mind
you, if Raleigh then almost certainly English.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

Thanks for your various suggestions.

FWIW someone else suggested a product called Loctite Freeze and
Release from Halfords. Claims to get the temperature down to -48C. It
didn't work, I sheared another bolt. Not surprised really, it would
give a max temperature difference of 70C - I was probably doing close
to that with hot water on the outside, and it was easier to get the
water in the right place.

Shame there's no M14, I think that might have worked. I don't think
M16 will go through.

I think the maintenance people at work have a vice in their workshops,
I'll see of they'll let me try - that seems the best solution. I'm
doubtful I'd get a grip with Stilsons - I do have a small pair which I
couldn't get on to the rather rounded flats, doubtful that a big pair
would be any better. Failing that, welding/brazing a nut sounds like a
good idea. I know one guy with the gear, but he's a bit strange, and I
don't know him that well.

All very annoying. I started this plus a few other jobs yesterday
morning, with the intention of going for a ride today, to check things
were OK, then some gentle rides during the week ready for the Exmouth
Exodus on Saturday. Only consolation is the weather forecast is bad
for tomorrow, so going in the car with the bike in the back won't seem
so bad.

[email hidden] wrote on 24/06/2007 16:26 +0100:

Quoted message said:

I think the maintenance people at work have a vice in their workshops,
I'll see of they'll let me try - that seems the best solution. I'm
doubtful I'd get a grip with Stilsons - I do have a small pair which I
couldn't get on to the rather rounded flats, doubtful that a big pair
would be any better. Failing that, welding/brazing a nut sounds like a
good idea. I know one guy with the gear, but he's a bit strange, and I
don't know him that well.

You could try getting a chisel and chasing it off. Pick the edge of the
cup and you will need to put to make a nick in it for the chisel to
gain purchase. Then just gently or not so gently tap it round.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Somehow managed to bend the axle in my old style cup and cone bottom
bracket, so I've been trying to replace it with a cartridge bearing.
I was expecting trouble getting the fixed cup out, but Sheldon Brown
seems so confident about his method that I assumed it would work.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up. I managed to move it a few degrees, then when I
couldn't move it any further checked instructions and realised I was
going the wrong way, and can't shift it back. But at least its not
actually siezed :-/.

LBS mechanics are both on holiday this week, I really need the bike
next weekend for Exmouth Exodus, don't have access to a vice (and the
surfaces on the fixed cup look pathetic anyway). I'd try an M14 nut
and bolt if I could find one, but certainly anywhere open on Sunday
only goes to M12.

This is a bit of a long shot as I think I've read most of the advice
on the web, but any more ideas? What sort of place would I go to for
bigger nuts and bolts?

If its relevant, bike is an Raleigh hybrid from the early 90s, so this
means fixed cup has reverse thread, yes?

I had about 500ft-lb of torque on a stuck one once (cup in a vice,
turning the frame by hand) and it still wouldn't budge.

The LBS shifted it in about 5 minutes.

Quoting <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

So far I've stripped the threads off two M12 bolts and sheared a
third. I've used loads of WD40 and poured hot water over the outside
to warm it up.

We shifted one of these with a heat gun. That worked, although I have (yet
another) scar as a result of carelessness.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Olethros, Presuary - a weekend.

I reckoned I'd spent enough time and money on this (B&Q charge 98p for
_one_ M12 nut - not sure if this is better or worse than £4 for a
packet of 12 when you want one), so down to not so local BS this
afternoon (both mechanics from favourite LBS away this week).

Cup removed in less than five minutes using a combination of ordinary
fixed cup spanner and professional version of Sheldon Brown nut and
bolt. The role of the latter was only to hold the spanner on to the
flats of the cup, and with this it went relatively easily. So, anyone
who has a suitable spanner but is having trouble getting it to stay
on, a Sheldon Brown style nut and bolt plus a suitable bit of steel
plate/bar with a hole in it to hold the spanner in place might be
worth trying.

Cost: £6.98, which is irritatingly precise. I reckon the guy who did
it would have been happy with a fiver, but his wife who did the
accounts was watching, so I got the standard minimum charge, which is
fair enough.

I'm pretty sure an M16 bolt would have gone through the hole and
shifted it (my main problem was shearing M12s), but at £7 for a bag
of 25 from Screwfix + £6.25 for 100 nuts + £3 for washers, BS was much
better value, even if less satisfying.

Thanks again for all your suggestions.

Rob

Glad you sorted it. Have to say I was planning to risk howls of outrage from
all & sundy by proposing the solution that eventually worked for me when I
found myself in a similar situation - putting my biggest screwdriver in one
of the slots on the retaining ring and giving it a few bloody good whacks
with a hammer. Brute force eh? who needs finesse....
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
I reckoned I'd spent enough time and money on this (B&Q charge 98p for
_one_ M12 nut - not sure if this is better or worse than £4 for a
packet of 12 when you want one), so down to not so local BS this
afternoon (both mechanics from favourite LBS away this week).

Cup removed in less than five minutes using a combination of ordinary
fixed cup spanner and professional version of Sheldon Brown nut and
bolt. The role of the latter was only to hold the spanner on to the
flats of the cup, and with this it went relatively easily. So, anyone
who has a suitable spanner but is having trouble getting it to stay
on, a Sheldon Brown style nut and bolt plus a suitable bit of steel
plate/bar with a hole in it to hold the spanner in place might be
worth trying.

Cost: £6.98, which is irritatingly precise. I reckon the guy who did
it would have been happy with a fiver, but his wife who did the
accounts was watching, so I got the standard minimum charge, which is
fair enough.

I'm pretty sure an M16 bolt would have gone through the hole and
shifted it (my main problem was shearing M12s), but at £7 for a bag
of 25 from Screwfix + £6.25 for 100 nuts + £3 for washers, BS was much
better value, even if less satisfying.

Thanks again for all your suggestions.

Rob

spokes wrote on 25/06/2007 22:54 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Glad you sorted it. Have to say I was planning to risk howls of outrage from
all & sundy by proposing the solution that eventually worked for me when I
found myself in a similar situation - putting my biggest screwdriver in one
of the slots on the retaining ring and giving it a few bloody good whacks
with a hammer. Brute force eh? who needs finesse....

You'll be pleased to know that is a well established and much used
engineering method and it even has its own name. Its known as drifting
it off. The only amateur bit was using a screwdriver instead of a
proper drift.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Ooh - I feel like a technician now.
"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

spokes wrote on 25/06/2007 22:54 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Glad you sorted it. Have to say I was planning to risk howls of outrage
from all & sundy by proposing the solution that eventually worked for me
when I found myself in a similar situation - putting my biggest
screwdriver in one of the slots on the retaining ring and giving it a few
bloody good whacks with a hammer. Brute force eh? who needs finesse....

You'll be pleased to know that is a well established and much used
engineering method and it even has its own name. Its known as drifting it
off. The only amateur bit was using a screwdriver instead of a proper
drift.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

spokes wrote on 25/06/2007 22:54 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Glad you sorted it. Have to say I was planning to risk howls of outrage from
all & sundy by proposing the solution that eventually worked for me when I
found myself in a similar situation - putting my biggest screwdriver in one
of the slots on the retaining ring and giving it a few bloody good whacks
with a hammer. Brute force eh? who needs finesse....

You'll be pleased to know that is a well established and much used
engineering method and it even has its own name. Its known as drifting
it off. The only amateur bit was using a screwdriver instead of a
proper drift.

Correct, and the procedure is usually accompanied by the phrase, Don't
force it - use a bigger hammer!"

TL (an engineer with letters after his name :-) )

The Luggage wrote on 26/06/2007 15:23 +0100:

Quoted message said:

TL (an engineer with letters after his name :-) )

Alan, why do you go through the charade of calling yourself The Luggage
and signing yourself as TL when your e-mail address gives us your real name?

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

Tony Raven said:

The Luggage wrote on 26/06/2007 15:23 +0100:

Quoted message said:

TL (an engineer with letters after his name :-) )

Alan, why do you go through the charade of calling yourself The Luggage
and signing yourself as TL when your e-mail address gives us your real name?
Tony

I've used The Luggage as a net moniker for yonks, (since I played the
part in a stage version of The Light Fantastic about 10 years ago) but
I never got a round tuit for setting up a throwaway email address with
it in. I'd be hard pushed to find a free domain that still had
'theluggage' free anyway. I don't use TL to hide my identity, but to
provide a possibly memorable name for myself on the groups I frequent.

Alan, aka The Luggage PhD, MA MEng AMIChemE :-)