Favorite WheelSets

arnthorla said:

I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
what wheel set to buy.

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
rolling resistance is suspect.

Thanks!

Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

arnthorla said:

I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
what wheel set to buy.

Quoted message said:

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

Quoted message said:

I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
rolling resistance is suspect.

Quoted message said:

Thanks!

Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??

Self portrait? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Johnny Sunset said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
what wheel set to buy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
rolling resistance is suspect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??

Self portrait? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

teehee....

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??

I think they fired that guy for stomping on a bunch of carbon fiber
forks until they were dust and shards and then and kicking them under
the counter to hide them afterwards.

arnthorla said:

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
(a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them. These will be
your daily rider, training, riding in the rain, etc wheels. Your (b)
and (c) can be combined if you don't have a lot of money. These wheels
need not be very expensive, but it makes sense to look for good
aerodynamics. In the under $500 class the new Shimano wheels have
tested very well aero-wise. Above $500 you can do a little better
aerodynamically and save a lot of weight with handbuilts. Put the best
racing tires and latex tubes on these and ride them only when
competing... that way they will be fresh and stay in good condition.

IMO this is the most sensible and frugal approach, but if you'd like
to spend more money you certainly can. One thing to remember is that
your wheels aren't going to make a big difference in your
performance... unless you think a few of 10ths of a mph in a TT, or a
few 100ths of a mph on a climb are a lot.

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Ron Ruff <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

arnthorla said:

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
(a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them. These will be
your daily rider, training, riding in the rain, etc wheels. Your (b)
and (c) can be combined if you don't have a lot of money. These wheels
need not be very expensive, but it makes sense to look for good
aerodynamics. In the under $500 class the new Shimano wheels have
tested very well aero-wise. Above $500 you can do a little better
aerodynamically and save a lot of weight with handbuilts. Put the best
racing tires and latex tubes on these and ride them only when
competing... that way they will be fresh and stay in good condition.

IMO this is the most sensible and frugal approach, but if you'd like
to spend more money you certainly can. One thing to remember is that
your wheels aren't going to make a big difference in your
performance... unless you think a few of 10ths of a mph in a TT, or a
few 100ths of a mph on a climb are a lot.

It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
easier to sustain with lighter equipment.

Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
be racing.

Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
terrain of the course. A great, heavy, aero rim for training that is also
adaptable to mostly flat TT's is the Rigida DP18. We don't seem to have all
the varieties of rims from America to compare to. There was a pair of
Velocity Deep V rims that went for 4 euros on eBay, but I couldn't figure
out what to lace their 18 holes to, or I would have tried them.

--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Sandy said:

Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
be racing.

I would say that for the vast majority of us, racing is about placing
as good as we can... only a small percentage of competitors have a
reasonable chance at winning. If spending $5,000 dollars on equipment
will only improve my placing from 53rd to 49th, then I'll pass.

@ All

Well I guess Im over and done with my frugal stage. I had a long one!
( And I guess Im rather on the frugal side of the spectrum, like most
true cyclist ( that love cycling in a wider sense )). But things got
out of hand, I guess, and now the most logical step has become to go
into racing. ( I had always only aspired to do really long
selfcontained touring. ) So frugal sprugal I need the good [censored]! 😉

So what I ment I need two types of wheel sets. One for a) training
and the other for b) general racing. When the time comes I will
manage to gear up for TT.

For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.

For b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.

The thing is I there are so many products out there ( and probaly the
same amount of BS too ). So I was thinking, in most every field there
tends to be a few things that stand out and most every one uses or
have used. I was wondering I could get a picture of the most popular
( most poven products ). I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
better than it performes.

So over to you guys.
Any ideas?

arnthorla said:

So frugal sprugal I need the good [censored]! 😉

Ah, well... that changes things. In that case go with good handbuilt
wheels all around... just because they can be better built than the
factory wheels, and they are more easily customized.

Too many options to list really, and specifics will depend on your
weight and riding style, but for training probably Ultegra or Dura Ace
hubs laced to sturdy rims like Velocity Fusions, Mavic CXP33... or
Deep Vs, DT 1.2s, etc... with double butted spokes and brass nipples.
These should last a long time, they are easily serviced, and parts can
be easily and inexpensively replaced.

For racing the Zipp rims consistently beat the competition in aero
testing, so it isn't just hype. There was a durability problem in the
past, especially with the 303s, but they have since beefed them up. If
you will only use these for racing I'd consider tubulars... much
lighter rim+tire, and if you get the best tires the rolling resistance
should be about as good as the best clinchers. So 303s or 404s laced
with CX-Rays or Aerolite spokes, to White Industries, Tune, or DT
hubs.

For time trials you will want a disk in the rear and an 808 rim in the
front... for most conditions anyway.

arnthorla said:

@ All

Well I guess Im over and done with my frugal stage. I had a long one!
( And I guess Im rather on the frugal side of the spectrum, like most
true cyclist ( that love cycling in a wider sense )). But things got
out of hand, I guess, and now the most logical step has become to go
into racing. ( I had always only aspired to do really long
selfcontained touring. ) So frugal sprugal I need the good [censored]! 😉

So what I ment I need two types of wheel sets. One for a) training
and the other for b) general racing. When the time comes I will
manage to gear up for TT.

For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.

For b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.

If $ is not an issue, have a good wheelbuilder make you a training
wheelset and for racing, spend the $, get a carbon, aero tubular
wheelset based around a good hubset, like DA or Campag or DT
hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
set of carbon tubie racing wheels.

Quoted message said:

The thing is I there are so many products out there ( and probaly the
same amount of BS too ). So I was thinking, in most every field there
tends to be a few things that stand out and most every one uses or
have used. I was wondering I could get a picture of the most popular
( most poven products ). I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
better than it performes.

So over to you guys.
Any ideas?

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
set of carbon tubie racing wheels.

? Lots of loose rims, Peter. Zipp, Reynolds, Corima, X-Treme,
Blackwell, and Nimble... to name a few. These can be custom built with
whatever spokes and hubs you like... below 1000g tubies if you wish.

Quoted message said:

If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
(a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them.

----------
I would 2nd this statement. My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
trust them, and they're usually too stiff. The open pro with a shimano hub,
32 spokes was the best solution for someone like me, who doesn't know or
want to think much about wheels. I'm sure there are many similar setups,
that may be better, but that one is an easy solution for someone who isn't a
wheel-head. I use wide tires, 25's and 28's, so that may explain their
longevity, but they've been the most durable wheels I've owned.

Callistus Valerius said:

My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
trust them,

Why did you ever get them if you don't trust them?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
trust them,

Why did you ever get them if you don't trust them?

--

-------------
One pair came with a new bike, the other pair I thought they would make me
faster, they didn't.

Sandy said:

It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
easier to sustain with lighter equipment.

There are some interesting assumptions in these figures. For one, a
12km climb at 12% is a huge climb, and if you are racing on such a
course then you are probably riding what the team provides. For amateur
racers, rising mostly crits, such a climb does not occur. Also, the
assumption that the fancier wheels saves 500g is an interesting one.
Very few wheels would (really) be 500g lighter than your basic 32-hole
Open Pro rim and standard Shimano or Campy hub. They may claim to be
lighter, but those claims are usually without skewers and are still shy
of reality.

Quoted message said:

Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
be racing.

Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
terrain of the course.

And durability. An ultralight wheel is worthless if it can't be relied
upon to make it to the finish line.

--

David L. Johnson

Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.

arnthorla said:

So frugal sprugal I need the good [censored]! 😉

So what I meant I need two types of wheel sets.

At least. Evenif you don't race, if you ride a lot then it never hurts
to have extra wheels around. If you are racing you always want to have
extra wheels available. So once you have your fancy race wheels still
throw your others in the car "just in case".

Quoted message said:

For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.

For training just get a basic wheelset and go ride. I favor 32 spoke
rims on decent hubs. Don't worry about weight and put enough spokes in
them so that if you break one you can finish the ride. Training is
about getting the training in not saving 50 grams of weight on your
bike.

IMO - If you are serious about training and riding faster then spend
your extra money on a power meter and not on bling wheels for grinding
out training miles.

Finally, I am a bit of a dinosaur in that I still train on old
fashioned wheels with lots of spokes and non-aero box rims. I'm 100%
certain that the folks who can drop me do so because they have bigger
motors and not fancier equipment.

Quoted message said:

b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.

These are nice to have if you can afford it and there is a small
performance advantage. You can get Zipp, Corima, Reynolds and others
as loose rims or buy prebuilt if you like. The lower end HED wheels
look like a good value (Jets and Alpes) and Zipp has the Flashpoints.
Around here we see a lot of Zipp 303 and 404s of various builds. The
404 is pretty much the ubiquitous deep dish rim of choice. A
combination of good marketing and a reasonable product.

Quoted message said:

I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
better than it performs.

I have a set of 404 clinchers (32 spoke ft and rear, chourus front hub
and a powertap rear). The wife and I share this wheel set for racing
purposes. For us these are essentially bullet proof wheels. Aero but
not overly light due to the PT rear and the few extra spokes.

One could easily use these wheels as daily drivers but I prefer to
keep them for days when I want the slight performance edge and the
extra mental boost of knowing I'm on my "race" wheels. That said, if
you have the cash there is no reason not to use wheels like these as
daily use. I think it's a bit silly to train on these sorts of wheels
but if that floats your boat then happy sailing mate.

I agree with Ron that for your race wheels you have to decide clincher
vs tubbies. If you go with tubbies learn how to glue them properly and
enjoy the heck out of them.

YMMV

Mark

Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
it.

A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
friend.

My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
with my friend.

The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
friends and I don't want to stop a sale.

I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
you feel that you are going really fast.

Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.

Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
dérailleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
for me, he'd go broke.

Andres

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

arnthorla said:

I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
what wheel set to buy.

Quoted message said:

What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )

Quoted message said:

I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
rolling resistance is suspect.

Quoted message said:

Thanks!

Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??

Ron Ruff said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
set of carbon tubie racing wheels.

? Lots of loose rims, Peter. Zipp, Reynolds, Corima, X-Treme,
Blackwell, and Nimble... to name a few. These can be custom built with
whatever spokes and hubs you like... below 1000g tubies if you wish.

Zipp-nothanks...Reynolds? I have been trying to get them to make me
10-28h for 2 years..no soap. Corima, no thanks...Nimble-tried that one
as well..too many spokes pulling thru, like Zipp...Never heard of x-
treme or Blackwell..I'll look into those but Reynolds makes the best
rims..see comment above.

On Jun 17, 8:48 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
easier to sustain with lighter equipment.

There are some interesting assumptions in these figures. For one, a
12km climb at 12% is a huge climb, and if you are racing on such a
course then you are probably riding what the team provides. For amateur
racers, rising mostly crits, such a climb does not occur. Also, the
assumption that the fancier wheels saves 500g is an interesting one.
Very few wheels would (really) be 500g lighter than your basic 32-hole
Open Pro rim and standard Shimano or Campy hub. They may claim to be
lighter, but those claims are usually without skewers and are still shy
of reality.

IT's easy to find 500 gram aero rims; what's hard to find are aero
rims less than 500 grams that are not CF. I am going to give my seat
of the pants impression based on my racing experience that the
difference between a pair of 500g. rims versus 300g. rims is huge,
even in a criterium because of it's constant accelerations.
Furthermore, even the most amateur of road races can have steep,
significant climbs on them, and the difference between losing contact
with the front doesn't need to be 100 meters, it can be five meters.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
be racing.

Quoted message said:

Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
terrain of the course.

And durability. An ultralight wheel is worthless if it can't be relied
upon to make it to the finish line.

This seems like common sense but it's really a strawman. The reality
is that, for road racing, most people are not likely to encounter
wheels so light or roads so bad that the lightness of the wheel could
contribute to a DNF. Wheel build quality is many times more important.

The CW on this newsgroup wrt component weight can be boiled down to
this short statement: "Weight doesn't matter." It's wrong. If you're
racing, or if you just want to be as fast as you can be, weight _does_
matter. All weight.

And, I will add, I don't really agree with the concept of heavy wheels
for training. If you want to race fast, train fast, or to put it
another way, feeling sluggish while training is not conducive to
becoming fast. I do believe that your race wheels should not be used
for training, but I believe that the quatlity and weight of your
training wheels should approach that of your race wheels- maybe a step
below, but not "heavy".
..