Mavic Ksyrium SL durabilty

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels? Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding. The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

It's mind boggling how well those wheels sell. I can't blame Mavic,
they are making a killing on them. Well, they look fast standing
still, maybe that's it. I don't even know how to pronounce them.

Chris

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

The embarrassment you can cause owners of such wheels as you blow by
them on a set of hand builts that cost 1/? as much. But whatever makes
folks happy. I see a couple really nice clydes down where I ride on
Ultegra equipped Madones and whatever that fancy Specialized model is.
These guys are slow, rarely breaking 17mph--but they're still gear
heads that simply enjoy the stuff regardless of performance. Far
cheaper than turning your average Harley into a lamp shade and
healthier to boot. They help pay the bike shop's bills. Amusingly
enough--these guys never seem to carry pumps/C02 or any tools. You'd
think if the shop talked them into a multi thousand dollar bike, they
could make some coin pushing accessories.

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels? Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding. The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

Hi there.

Now you know why they atre also known as Kry syriums.

Cheers from Peter

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Mike Krueger <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

What is so great about these wheels? Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding. The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

10000 miles would be 2 years of serious racing, (not recreational riding).
At a certain upper level, there's a lot to be said positively about
incremental equipment changes. 2 seasons racing is enough for wheels of
that type. If the hubs were still good, he could possibly convert them to
training wheels at a small cost. If not very practical, then he can buy
Aksium wheels, which go for about 150 dollar equiv here, again for training.

One specious argument often made is that pros ride what they receive. Well,
to a certain extent it's true. But no pro team will take losing equipment.
If they could trim their budgets and put the money elsewhere (like their
pockets) with no loss in performance, they would.

If he is not really that good, but it makes him feel better, keeps him from
beating family and housepets, leaves him with a smile, why do you need to
feel it necessary to criticize him?
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

They are a major marketing success. That's about it. Mavic
successfully convinced a lot of people that they look cool.

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
tension "as high as the rim can bear".

Quoted message said:

Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding.

how much do you ride in the wet?

Quoted message said:

The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
steel has no fatigue endurance limit.

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

jim beam said:

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
tension "as high as the rim can bear".

Quoted message said:

Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding.

how much do you ride in the wet?

Quoted message said:

The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
steel has no fatigue endurance limit.

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
design.

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
tension "as high as the rim can bear".

Quoted message said:

Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding.

how much do you ride in the wet?

Quoted message said:

The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
steel has no fatigue endurance limit.

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
design.

i too have seen the fat middle-aged weekenders stuck at the side of the
road with their broken aluminum mavic spokes. on more than one
occasion. buy not all ksyriums have aluminum spokes. and the ones that
don't are, in my experience, great at staying true when most lbs wheels
just suck after 500 miles.

the debate on why the above demographic want gear like this is another
matter. but why not? they earned the money, they want the gear. it's
simple. just like buying a porsche to then drive 55. or having that
hot 20-something girlfriend with the tan and the dangly navel ornament.
cretain individuals will vocalize strong disapproval. but it's just
jealousy excretion. and let's face it, a fancy wheelset is a damned
sight cheaper than the porsche or the 20-something.

jim beam said:

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good.

Anyone that is looking for a good custom wheel most likely has
internet access, and indeed all kinds of wonderful wheelsmiths at
their disposal. Those wheels are serious hype and a rip off compared
to a normal set of wheels.

Quoted message said:

anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

I'm no pro wrench, but the three wheels I've built from scratch have
stayed perfect. Ditto that the dozen wheels I've rerimmed. It's not
rocket science. You just need patience. The skill lays in guys that
can build sweet wheels fast. I know I can build a wonderful wheel--but
it takes a couple hours. Apparently your LBS dudes are like me-minus
an hour of drinking beer and dialing the spoke tension in.

landotter said:

jim beam said:

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good.

Anyone that is looking for a good custom wheel most likely has
internet access, and indeed all kinds of wonderful wheelsmiths at
their disposal. Those wheels are serious hype and a rip off compared
to a normal set of wheels.

Quoted message said:

anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

I'm no pro wrench, but the three wheels I've built from scratch have
stayed perfect. Ditto that the dozen wheels I've rerimmed. It's not
rocket science.

you're absolutely right, it's not. that's why typical lbs [censored] product
is /so/ irritating! seriously, i had a lot of trouble finding a good
wheel builder here in the bay area. and there's loads who'll /tell/ you
they're brilliant and be lying.

Quoted message said:

You just need patience. The skill lays in guys that
can build sweet wheels fast. I know I can build a wonderful wheel--but
it takes a couple hours. Apparently your LBS dudes are like me-minus
an hour of drinking beer and dialing the spoke tension in.

even so, many people don't want to bother. and i agree. i /hate/
having to take a heel back to the shop multiple times and know it's
still gonna be [censored], just like it was before. you just don't get that
with box wheels. not if they've been left alone at any rate.

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Mike Krueger wrote:
> What is so great about these wheels?
they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
tension "as high as the rim can bear".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Am I missing something? They have
> become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
> buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
> broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
> racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
> 10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
> considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
> an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
> riding.
how much do you ride in the wet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
> with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
> anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
> stainless steel. Just my observations.
don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
steel has no fatigue endurance limit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
pre-built every time.

Quoted message said:

If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
design.

i too have seen the fat middle-aged weekenders stuck at the side of the
road with their broken aluminum mavic spokes. on more than one
occasion.

it's not just "fat middle-aged weekenders" that have problems with
Ksyriums. With the possible exception of the 140lb set, it's pretty
widespread.

Quoted message said:

buy not all ksyriums have aluminum spokes. and the ones that
don't are, in my experience, great at staying true when most lbs wheels
just suck after 500 miles.

Granted, it's the stupid, aluminum spoke units that are the most
troublesome.

Quoted message said:

the debate on why the above demographic want gear like this is another
matter. but why not? they earned the money, they want the gear. it's
simple. just like buying a porsche to then drive 55. or having that
hot 20-something girlfriend with the tan and the dangly navel ornament.
cretain individuals will vocalize strong disapproval. but it's just
jealousy excretion. and let's face it, a fancy wheelset is a damned
sight cheaper than the porsche or the 20-something.-

People buy what the media (in this case, the bike mags) and the
salesdroids tell 'em to buy. Ksyriums (and other high $$$ boxed
wheels) offer a quick, high profit sale. It's the easy way out for the
shop.

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jun 15, 9:30 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Mike Krueger wrote:
>> What is so great about these wheels?
> they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
> haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
> tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>> Am I missing something? They have
>> become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
>> buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
>> broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
>> racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
>> 10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
>> considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
>> an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
>> riding.
> how much do you ride in the wet?
>> The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
>> with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
>> anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
>> stainless steel. Just my observations.
> don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
> steel has no fatigue endurance limit.
> bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
> access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
> that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
> compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
> pre-built every time.
If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
design.

i too have seen the fat middle-aged weekenders stuck at the side of the
road with their broken aluminum mavic spokes. on more than one
occasion.

it's not just "fat middle-aged weekenders" that have problems with
Ksyriums. With the possible exception of the 140lb set, it's pretty
widespread.

Quoted message said:

buy not all ksyriums have aluminum spokes. and the ones that
don't are, in my experience, great at staying true when most lbs wheels
just suck after 500 miles.

Granted, it's the stupid, aluminum spoke units that are the most
troublesome.

Quoted message said:

the debate on why the above demographic want gear like this is another
matter. but why not? they earned the money, they want the gear. it's
simple. just like buying a porsche to then drive 55. or having that
hot 20-something girlfriend with the tan and the dangly navel ornament.
cretain individuals will vocalize strong disapproval. but it's just
jealousy excretion. and let's face it, a fancy wheelset is a damned
sight cheaper than the porsche or the 20-something.-

People buy what the media (in this case, the bike mags) and the
salesdroids tell 'em to buy. Ksyriums (and other high $$$ boxed
wheels) offer a quick, high profit sale. It's the easy way out for the
shop.

ok, let's assume quality isn't an issue. [and it most certainly is
btw!] lets also assume the need for the bike shop to make a little coin
and pay the rent isn't an issue. [and it is.] then what do we have?

1. customers like them.
2. er, that's it.

bottom line, if there were no good, they wouldn't sell. no amount of
hype could sell these things if customers didn't like them, and the #1
advantage is build quality. period. i can build a great wheel, but why
should i bother if i can get a wheel out of the box the same quality or
better, for the same price i pay for parts, and it works? add other
advantages such as low spoke count wheels having less cross-wind
resistance - something dear to my heart since i cross the golden gate
bridge every day - and better bearings that don't need to be re-packed
every few weeks in the winter, then they start to really stand out.

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Jun 15, 9:30 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Mike Krueger wrote:
>>> What is so great about these wheels?
>> they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
>> haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
>> tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>>> Am I missing something? They have
>>> become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
>>> buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
>>> broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
>>> racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
>>> 10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
>>> considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
>>> an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
>>> riding.
>> how much do you ride in the wet?
>>> The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
>>> with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
>>> anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
>>> stainless steel. Just my observations.
>> don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
>> steel has no fatigue endurance limit.
>> bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
>> access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
>> that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
>> compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
>> pre-built every time.
> If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
> I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
> regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
> mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
> design.
i too have seen the fat middle-aged weekenders stuck at the side of the
road with their broken aluminum mavic spokes. on more than one
occasion.

Quoted message said:

it's not just "fat middle-aged weekenders" that have problems with
Ksyriums. With the possible exception of the 140lb set, it's pretty
widespread.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

buy not all ksyriums have aluminum spokes. and the ones that
don't are, in my experience, great at staying true when most lbs wheels
just suck after 500 miles.

Quoted message said:

Granted, it's the stupid, aluminum spoke units that are the most
troublesome.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the debate on why the above demographic want gear like this is another
matter. but why not? they earned the money, they want the gear. it's
simple. just like buying a porsche to then drive 55. or having that
hot 20-something girlfriend with the tan and the dangly navel ornament.
cretain individuals will vocalize strong disapproval. but it's just
jealousy excretion. and let's face it, a fancy wheelset is a damned
sight cheaper than the porsche or the 20-something.-

Quoted message said:

People buy what the media (in this case, the bike mags) and the
salesdroids tell 'em to buy. Ksyriums (and other high $$$ boxed
wheels) offer a quick, high profit sale. It's the easy way out for the
shop.

ok, let's assume quality isn't an issue. [and it most certainly is
btw!] lets also assume the need for the bike shop to make a little coin
and pay the rent isn't an issue. [and it is.] then what do we have?

1. customers like them.
2. er, that's it.

bottom line, if there were no good, they wouldn't sell.

General question: Do you *really* believe that? Do you believe that
all products which sell in quantity are "good"?

Specifically, regarding Ksyrium wheels, these are some of the most
problem prone wheels on the market. A simple look-around/ask-around
will confirm that fact. They sell due to their presence in the OEM
market (IOW, alot of people are more or less "force fed" these wheels
when they buy a new bike), hype in the media and "buzz' on the LBS
sales floor.

Quoted message said:

no amount of
hype could sell these things if customers didn't like them, and the #1
advantage is build quality. period. i can build a great wheel, but why
should i bother if i can get a wheel out of the box the same quality or
better, for the same price i pay for parts, and it works? add other
advantages such as low spoke count wheels having less cross-wind
resistance - something dear to my heart since i cross the golden gate
bridge every day - and better bearings that don't need to be re-packed
every few weeks in the winter, then they start to really stand out.-

Are you holding up Ksyrium hubs as exemplary???

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels? Am I missing something? They have
become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
riding. The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
stainless steel. Just my observations.

Yep the power of marketing. Any bike shop that has a clue knows these
and all the 'hybrids', like the ES, start with a really cheap and
crappy rear hub, add aluminum spokes and then are all built
poorly..all for $800-$1100. We true, replace spokes, send back to
mavic(we don't rebuild them), overhaul hubs all the time, but they
continue to sell and are seen on LOTS of bikesouttaboxes. I'm sure
mavic makes these frame buiulders sweetheart deals to get these out
there.

landotter said:

Mike Krueger said:

What is so great about these wheels?

The embarrassment you can cause owners of such wheels as you blow by
them on a set of hand builts that cost 1/? as much. But whatever makes
folks happy. I see a couple really nice clydes down where I ride on
Ultegra equipped Madones and whatever that fancy Specialized model is.
These guys are slow, rarely breaking 17mph--but they're still gear
heads that simply enjoy the stuff regardless of performance. Far
cheaper than turning your average Harley into a lamp shade and
healthier to boot. They help pay the bike shop's bills.

Not all bike shops. We have sold 1 ksyrium(one wheel) in 8
years..along with selling about 3000 wheels we have built. We make
more $ on a handbuilt anyway, since we charge for labor.

Amusingly

Quoted message said:

enough--these guys never seem to carry pumps/C02 or any tools. You'd
think if the shop talked them into a multi thousand dollar bike, they
could make some coin pushing accessories.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

landotter said:

On Jun 15, 2:20 pm, Mike Krueger wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is so great about these wheels?

Quoted message said:

The embarrassment you can cause owners of such wheels as you blow by
them on a set of hand builts that cost 1/? as much. But whatever makes
folks happy. I see a couple really nice clydes down where I ride on
Ultegra equipped Madones and whatever that fancy Specialized model is.
These guys are slow, rarely breaking 17mph--but they're still gear
heads that simply enjoy the stuff regardless of performance. Far
cheaper than turning your average Harley into a lamp shade and
healthier to boot. They help pay the bike shop's bills.

Not all bike shops. We have sold 1 ksyrium(one wheel) in 8
years..along with selling about 3000 wheels we have built. We make
more $ on a handbuilt anyway, since we charge for labor.

Peter's/Vecchio's hand-built wheels [1] are in all likelihood better
than the Mavic Ksyrium SL's in every objective category, BUTBUTBUT [2]
they can not compete at all in BLING FACTOR when the bike is parked at
the coffee shop!!!

[11] <http://www.vecchios.com/bikes.html>.
[2] Gratuitous gdanielsism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Ozark Bicycle said:

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jun 15, 10:07 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Jun 15, 9:30 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Mike Krueger wrote:
>>>> What is so great about these wheels?
>>> they're dead true out of the box and last well enough, provided they
>>> haven't been "helped" by your friendly neighborhood lbs exerting spoke
>>> tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>>>> Am I missing something? They have
>>>> become ubiquitous where I live, and they are not cheap. Of four
>>>> buddies of mine that ride them, two have cracked rims and two have
>>>> broken spokes already this season. These are Sunday club riders, not
>>>> racers or hammerheads. One guy who cracked a rim said, "the wheels had
>>>> 10,000 mi. on them, so they didn't own me anything." Is that
>>>> considered the lifespan of a pre-built wheel these days? Seems to me
>>>> an $800 wheelset should last more than 2 or 3 years of recreational
>>>> riding.
>>> how much do you ride in the wet?
>>>> The bike shop charged him $200 for a new rim and relaced it
>>>> with the old, used spokes. And why would you use aluminum spokes
>>>> anyway? They seem to be breakage-prone compared to old-fashioned
>>>> stainless steel. Just my observations.
>>> don't blame the material. planes are made of aluminum and stainless
>>> steel has no fatigue endurance limit.
>>> bottom line, if you don't want them, that's great. but not everyone has
>>> access to a wheel guru that can build a wheel that is that good. anyone
>>> that's experienced a "normal" lbs wheel build [i.e. not very good] and
>>> compared it to a pre-built wheel like this is going to go for the
>>> pre-built every time.
>> If you want to advocate for pre-built "wheels in a box" fine, although
>> I do disagree. But defending the Ksyrium???? I see 'em with problems
>> regularly. So do alot of other people. You can't blame it all (or even
>> mostly) on ignorant techs at the LBS. IMO, it's a proven problem prone
>> design.
> i too have seen the fat middle-aged weekenders stuck at the side of the
> road with their broken aluminum mavic spokes. on more than one
> occasion.
it's not just "fat middle-aged weekenders" that have problems with
Ksyriums. With the possible exception of the 140lb set, it's pretty
widespread.
> buy not all ksyriums have aluminum spokes. and the ones that
> don't are, in my experience, great at staying true when most lbs wheels
> just suck after 500 miles.
Granted, it's the stupid, aluminum spoke units that are the most
troublesome.
> the debate on why the above demographic want gear like this is another
> matter. but why not? they earned the money, they want the gear. it's
> simple. just like buying a porsche to then drive 55. or having that
> hot 20-something girlfriend with the tan and the dangly navel ornament.
> cretain individuals will vocalize strong disapproval. but it's just
> jealousy excretion. and let's face it, a fancy wheelset is a damned
> sight cheaper than the porsche or the 20-something.-
People buy what the media (in this case, the bike mags) and the
salesdroids tell 'em to buy. Ksyriums (and other high $$$ boxed
wheels) offer a quick, high profit sale. It's the easy way out for the
shop.

ok, let's assume quality isn't an issue. [and it most certainly is
btw!] lets also assume the need for the bike shop to make a little coin
and pay the rent isn't an issue. [and it is.] then what do we have?

1. customers like them.
2. er, that's it.

bottom line, if there were no good, they wouldn't sell.

General question: Do you *really* believe that?

yes.

Quoted message said:

Do you believe that
all products which sell in quantity are "good"?

for bikes, yes. "good" means that it's the right price segment and that
it outperforms what it replaces. a mavic wheel that stays true
/definitely/ outperforms some lbs garbage that needs attention every few
hundred miles.

Quoted message said:

Specifically, regarding Ksyrium wheels, these are some of the most
problem prone wheels on the market. A simple look-around/ask-around
will confirm that fact.

disagree. most of my friends now seem to ride mavic wheels. they all
rave about how they don't need to keep taking them in for "tune ups".

Quoted message said:

They sell due to their presence in the OEM
market (IOW, alot of people are more or less "force fed" these wheels
when they buy a new bike), hype in the media and "buzz' on the LBS
sales floor.

actually, most new bikes are /not/ sold with mavic wheels. that's where
rolf, bontrager, easton, shimano [in huge quantity], even campy, come
in. everybody i know who has mavic wheels has bought them after the
fact as replacements or upgrades.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

no amount of
hype could sell these things if customers didn't like them, and the #1
advantage is build quality. period. i can build a great wheel, but why
should i bother if i can get a wheel out of the box the same quality or
better, for the same price i pay for parts, and it works? add other
advantages such as low spoke count wheels having less cross-wind
resistance - something dear to my heart since i cross the golden gate
bridge every day - and better bearings that don't need to be re-packed
every few weeks in the winter, then they start to really stand out.-

Are you holding up Ksyrium hubs as exemplary???

from a winter bearing maintenance viewpoint, most definitely! i have
experienced the "draggy freehub" problem on one of my mavic cosmos
rears, but that was nothing a new pawl, cleanup and fresh lube didn't
fix. given that was year 3 of ownership and some miles in, i think it
compares very favorably with having to strip and repack shimano bearings
every few months in the winter after the water and grit intrudes.

jim beam said:

...
from a winter bearing maintenance viewpoint, most definitely! i have
experienced the "draggy freehub" problem on one of my mavic cosmos
rears, but that was nothing a new pawl, cleanup and fresh lube didn't
fix. given that was year 3 of ownership and some miles in, i think it
compares very favorably with having to strip and repack shimano bearings
every few months in the winter after the water and grit intrudes.

Are these Shimano "Road" hubs, "MTB" hubs, or both?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Johnny Sunset said:

jim beam said:

...
from a winter bearing maintenance viewpoint, most definitely! i have
experienced the "draggy freehub" problem on one of my mavic cosmos
rears, but that was nothing a new pawl, cleanup and fresh lube didn't
fix. given that was year 3 of ownership and some miles in, i think it
compares very favorably with having to strip and repack shimano bearings
every few months in the winter after the water and grit intrudes.

Are these Shimano "Road" hubs, "MTB" hubs, or both?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

road. my shimano mtb hubs have been perfect. and my shimano hubs are
perfect in the dry too. it's only driving rain that seems to be a
problem. always the drive side bearing. freehub gets pretty gritty as
well.