Comments - speedwork as a cure for overpronation injury.

"David Hallsworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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So what do you think? I personally think that I'm running differently

when

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I run quick, i.e. more on my forefoot, feet not turned outwards, leaning forwards. Sound familiar
to anyone? Having noticed this, how can I take advantage of it with out running every session so
fast that I overtrain?

You're almost certainly right about running more on your forefoot etc. as your speed increases.
Given your running talent I'm wary of trying to offer you any advice other than perhaps to ask if
you've tried keeping your cadence up (and hence shorter stride length) when you're running slower?

It may be that when you're "jogging" you're overstriding to a degree that's causing your shin pains.
180 steps/min is the oft quoted "optimum" figure and it's probably a reasonable figure to aim for.

HTH

Tim

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Given your running talent I'm wary of trying to offer you any advice

You're joking, right?... Most of the time I feel like a crippled consumptive... The sucess of my
tempo run today was probably due to some sort of cytokine burst from the flu jab I had ten minutes
previously!!

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It may be that when you're "jogging" you're overstriding to a degree

that's

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causing your shin pains. 180 steps/min is the oft quoted "optimum" figure and it's probably a
reasonable figure to aim for.

Yes, this is something I've considered. Following advice from UKRR and RR, I do try to keep a
cadence of 180 when I'm jogging along - obviously I don't count when I'm running hard, so I couldn't
compare the two. Overstriding may be the underlying problem, but it is difficult to work out how I
can translate my 'speed technique' into slower, in hopefully less painful running.

Incidentally, I am hopefully doing a special study module in Sports medicine and injuries, and as
part of this, I have to make a 'poster' report on an area of special interest. I'm going to do this
on 'pathological' biomechanics of running - you never know - I might answer the 'which technique is
best' conundrum!!

Thanks Tim, Best, Dave

In article said:

After my tempo run today, I was looking back through my training log and noticed something quite
interesting.

Take this week. On Monday, I did 5km easy (about 8min/mile) on asphalt and by the end of it I was
in agony with medial lower leg pain. Today, I ran 5km tempo (kicking off at 5:36min/mile, but
slowing down to about
6:30min/mile when I realised I was going too quick - did the 5k in 18:15) on a parkland path, and
not only did I finish the run in no pain, but the pain from Monday was 'cured'!

Looking through my log, it seems that I never get any 'pains of over-pronation' when I run fast
(intervals / tempos), I only seem to get them when I run slow (both easy and long runs). There is
some loose correlation between run and surface, i.e. speed sessions tend to be on paths, slow
sessions on road, but the speed-painless run connection seems to be pretty strong.

So what do you think?

I'm not convinced that your explanation is correct. When you run really fast (and low 18s is NOT a
tempo run for you, it's close to a 5k race) your body can be good at masking pain. For example,
I've had experiences where I've run hard intervals, and experienced pain when I jogged from the
track to my house.

I would try to experiment with different surfaces, and see if the hard surface affects your running
form when running slowly.

Also, it's possible that you're not wearing appropriate shoes. For example, if you were to wear
lightweight trainers for all your runs, it could easily give you problems with your slow runs, but
not with your speedwork.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

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I'm not convinced that your explanation is correct. When you run really

fast

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(and low 18s is NOT a tempo run for you, it's close to a 5k race) your

body can

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be good at masking pain. For example, I've had experiences where I've run

hard

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intervals, and experienced pain when I jogged from the track to my house.

Possibly - I tend to walk for 3-4 mins after a run, then cycle back home for 5 mins before
streching.

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I would try to experiment with different surfaces, and see if the hard

surface

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affects your running form when running slowly.

Also, it's possible that you're not wearing appropriate shoes. For

example, if

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you were to wear lightweight trainers for all your runs, it could easily give you problems with
your slow runs, but not with your speedwork.

Again - possible. I wear custom orthotics, so I run in neutral control cushioned trainers, the
philosophy being that I needn't get motion control shoes if I'm wearing an insert. I'm currently
running in NB 730, which are a relatively cheep neutral shoe. They're up for a change in Jan, so
I'll try out a range and see what happens.

Cheers, Dave

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Try slowing right down, at least for a bit. I can forefoot strike when running very fast and very
slow, it's only when I get tired on a steady run that form goes out the window.

That is an idea - I'm a sucker for being too enthusiastic. When I warm up, I often do what I call
'chicken-steps', that it, I try to run at the same speed with double cadence. Maybe I should try
this but slowing down.

Cheers, Dave

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Again - possible. I wear custom orthotics, so I run in neutral control cushioned trainers, the
philosophy being that I needn't get motion control shoes if I'm wearing an insert.

Unless the shoe-orthotic combination does not work well.

Hard orthotics in many shoes can increase pronation and make it worse. Also, orthotics increase
overall heal lift. If you get a sufficiently supportive shoe, then the loss of cushioning,
especially on pavement, can cause more problems than the "uncorrected" pronation. Couple that with
a less stable platform for a big challenge. I have been through all of this at least twice, many
years ago.

The faster running on a natural surface has pluses as mentioned. One, that speed demands better
form. Another, the softer, less even terrain demands a different form. On a softer surface, you can
be less inhibited and allow the legs to function naturally. I can run twice as long on a soft
surface and recover much much faster the next few days.

Injuries "travel" as the body compensates. If you have a sore medial lower leg, awareness of this
affects the form. And if this change in form makes it worse, then you have even more trouble. By
understanding the issue, you can reverse the spiral. In some instances, your modification might even
strengthen the part of the leg that now gets sore. My particular experience was not with the medial
lower leg, however.

I'm currently running in NB 730, which are

Quoted message said:

a relatively cheep neutral shoe. They're up for a change in Jan, so I'll try out a range and see
what happens.

Quoted message said:

Unless the shoe-orthotic combination does not work well.

Hard orthotics in many shoes can increase pronation and make it worse. Also, orthotics increase
overall heal lift. If you get a sufficiently supportive shoe, then the loss of cushioning,
especially on pavement, can cause more problems than the "uncorrected" pronation. Couple that with
a less stable platform for a big challenge. I have been through all of this at least twice, many
years ago.

This is true - I have just sent for an another appointment at the sports injuries and orthopaedics
hospital to get a new set of orthotics made. I'll take my current shoes in then and see what the
docs think, and what they recommend. Certainly when I bought the shoes, they were the most
comfortable and supportive of a whole bunch I tried out. I ran in each pair on concrete for about
10mins and the NB just felt like the best. The cushioning characteristics may have changed as I've
run them in, and so the shoe-orthotic combination may not be working so well.

Quoted message said:

The faster running on a natural surface has pluses as mentioned. One,

that

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speed demands better form. Another, the softer, less even terrain demands

a

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different form. On a softer surface, you can be less inhibited and allow the legs to function
naturally. I can run twice as long on a soft surface and recover much much faster the next
few days.

Another reason for me to stop being lazy and make the effort to run off-road. The trouble is, with
winter looming, it's difficult to find somewhere off-road AND light enough to run.

Quoted message said:

Injuries "travel" as the body compensates. If you have a sore medial

lower

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leg, awareness of this affects the form. And if this change in form makes it worse, then you have
even more trouble. By understanding the issue,

you

Quoted message said:

can reverse the spiral. In some instances, your modification might even strengthen the part of the
leg that now gets sore. My particular

experience

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was not with the medial lower leg, however.

That, and the fact I tend to think too much when I'm running. Thinking about it now, when I'm
running slow, I'm always considering my form, trying to correct it. When I'm running fast, I'm
mostly thinking about keeping going, making it to my 'finish line', not tripping over, etc.! Maybe
that's a significant part of the problem.

Cheers Bill.

Dave

I have experienced a similar problem recently. I have not been running for quite some time and my
knees have experienced significant soreness after my daily runs. Yet, on each of the runs where I
have increased my speed, my knees seem to have far less soreness afterwards (shame that every other
muscle in my legs seems to stiffen up!). I seem to hit my heel on my slow runs, but step more evenly
on my faster runs. It is really difficult to force my landing to be more even, but I will keep
trying....

Troy

FWIW from one of the slow brigade - my legs hurt (or are uncomfortable) after runs at above 8
minutes 15 a mile whereas after track sessions ('fraid I can only get down to about 3.07 for 800
metres) or long runs (12 to 15 k) at 7.50 a mile they feel great. Jonathan "Troy"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have experienced a similar problem recently. I have not been running for quite some time and my
knees have experienced significant soreness after

my

Quoted message said:

daily runs. Yet, on each of the runs where I have increased my speed, my knees seem to have far
less soreness afterwards (shame that every other muscle in my legs seems to stiffen up!). I seem
to hit my heel on my slow runs, but step more evenly on my faster runs. It is really difficult to
force my landing to be more even, but I will keep trying....

Troy

David Hallsworth said:

Yes, this is something I've considered. Following advice from UKRR and RR, I do try to keep a
cadence of 180 when I'm jogging along - obviously I don't count when I'm running hard, so I
couldn't compare the two. Overstriding may be the underlying problem, but it is difficult to work
out how I can translate my 'speed technique' into slower, in hopefully less painful running.

I have suffered for many years from shin pain caused in part from overstriding when young and over
enthusiastic. The onset of knee pain and the reduction in my thigh strength forced me to look hard
at my stride and I found I could check the overstriding by moving my hips forward and adopting a
more upright running style, sort of the reverse of how Michael Johnson sprints. Whether it is the
result of that or better modern shoes I don't know but I have not felt a single twinge from my shins
since starting running again. And since at the moment I consider it an achievement to do a 3 mile
run in under 27min I'm hardly in the forefoot running dept yet. Though the first mile of my last
3miler was done in 7:59, boy did that hurt ;-)

Peter