Frustrated with FTP Progress

dkrenik said:

I fully realize that this is a "coaching question" and greatly appreciate any advice from the forum members.

After taking last year off, I began riding again ~November of last year. Over several weeks I raised my wattage on 2x20's from ~210W to 240W. I've been at ~240W now for the past 4 months or without much progress. I have noticed that my level 5 power is responds well to training (6x5 min at 290W presently).

I've tried blocks of level 5 work and when going back to level 4 - nothing has changed. I've tried blocks of SST without any changes in FTP.

Recommendations?

How has your CTL changed over this period?

whoawhoa said:

How has your CTL changed over this period?

I just started training with a power meter in February (used speed as a proxy for power on my rollers before that). Given that, I'm not sure these numbers are relevant:
Feb 1: 12 (I manually entered some earlier workouts into WKO+ after estimating power given speed on my rollers)
Mar 22: 44
Present: 60

dkrenik said:

....I've been at ~240W now for the past 4 months or without much progress....Recommendations?

My FTP has hit several short plateau's and then suddenly jumps a notch. You haven't given much insight into your typical training week, but with a CTL of 60 it sounds like you may be taking more off days than necessary.

One thing I've found useful when my FTP seems stalled is to work in some longer L3/SST rides. I don't know if it's mental or physical but I'll go out targeting 85% for an hour to an hour and a half per block in a longer 3 to 4 hour ride and typically find I start near 85% of FTP and tend to ramp it up as the long interval progresses. A couple days of these and I usually see a jump in my next pure L4 session. I don't know if it's the additional SST time or just the mental boost of going pretty hard for a longer interval and really enjoying it. But either way I've come to think of that along with some dedicated L5 training as my FTP teasers as they always seem to give me a few watts jump in my best 20 minute power and FTP.

I suspect you're going to see an FTP jump soon with the increases you're seeing in VO2 max power. Sometimes it's just a matter of patience or a matter of getting into a hard race or other situation that forces you to dig a bit deeper than daily training but it's hard to imagine you won't see some FTP improvement if your VO2 max keeps rising with L5 work.

Good luck,
Dave

Quoted post said:

You haven't given much insight into your typical training week, but with a CTL of 60 it sounds like you may be taking more off days than necessary.

Perhaps. My job requires travel. I was completely off the bike for ~8-9 days end of March/early April; more travel mid April; 2 multi-day trips in May and another coming up in June. Ughhhh

It looks like I average about 500-550 TSS/week (when I can train) with some weeks (like last week) over 700 TSS.

Quoted post said:

I suspect you're going to see an FTP jump soon with the increases you're seeing in VO2 max power. Sometimes it's just a matter of patience or a matter of getting into a hard race or other situation that forces you to dig a bit deeper than daily training but it's hard to imagine you won't see some FTP improvement if your VO2 max keeps rising with L5 work.

Thanks for the encouragement, it's much appreciated.

How are you testing? Maybe your ftp is going up, but your intensity of training leaves you too tired to put in a solid effort when you test for ftp?

I honestly could not find the motivation to do an hour test with meaningful data. But if you put me on the line for a 40k TT I gurantee you I will give 100%.

Quoted post said:

How are you testing?

Ehhhh, good question 😉
I've a "lunch time loop" that has a section that takes me ~45 min's to complete at TT pace. If pressed I would say that my Pave has gone from ~235W to ~240W in the past few months (not significant I believe).

daveryanwyoming said:

My FTP has hit several short plateau's and then suddenly jumps a notch. You haven't given much insight into your typical training week, but with a CTL of 60 it sounds like you may be taking more off days than necessary.

One thing I've found useful when my FTP seems stalled is to work in some longer L3/SST rides. I don't know if it's mental or physical but I'll go out targeting 85% for an hour to an hour and a half per block in a longer 3 to 4 hour ride and typically find I start near 85% of FTP and tend to ramp it up as the long interval progresses. A couple days of these and I usually see a jump in my next pure L4 session. I don't know if it's the additional SST time or just the mental boost of going pretty hard for a longer interval and really enjoying it. But either way I've come to think of that along with some dedicated L5 training as my FTP teasers as they always seem to give me a few watts jump in my best 20 minute power and FTP.

I suspect you're going to see an FTP jump soon with the increases you're seeing in VO2 max power. Sometimes it's just a matter of patience or a matter of getting into a hard race or other situation that forces you to dig a bit deeper than daily training but it's hard to imagine you won't see some FTP improvement if your VO2 max keeps rising with L5 work.

Good luck,
Dave

nice reply. SST is the well I keep going back to when I lose momentum: either physical or mental.

dkrenik said:

I fully realize that this is a "coaching question" and greatly appreciate any advice from the forum members.

After taking last year off, I began riding again ~November of last year. Over several weeks I raised my wattage on 2x20's from ~210W to 240W. I've been at ~240W now for the past 4 months or without much progress. I have noticed that my level 5 power is responds well to training (6x5 min at 290W presently).

I've tried blocks of level 5 work and when going back to level 4 - nothing has changed. I've tried blocks of SST without any changes in FTP.

Recommendations?

Could you post the composition of a typical L4 week?

rmur17 said:

Could you post the composition of a typical L4 week?

Lets see, a typical week consists of:

Mix in an occasional TT or circuit race on Sat or Sun. I've been considering doing more weekday evening club rides just to mix it up a bit.

Also, as of late, I've been doing more L5/VO2 work:

Appreciate your input.

dkrenik said:

Lets see, a typical week consists of:

• 
  Monday: Pilates Reformer class (lower back issues)
  Tuesday: SST - ~45 mins (of ~1:10) at 230W Pave/240 Pnorm (1.0+ IF)
  Wednesday: 2x20 at 230-240W Pave/Pnorm (1.0 IF); what I've been able to hold on 2x20's hasn't changed since early March
  Thursday: ~50 min L3
  Friday: EZ
  Saturday: 2-3 hours team ride .8-.9 IF
  Sunday: EZ
  

Mix in an occasional TT or circuit race on Sat or Sun. I've been considering doing more weekday evening club rides just to mix it up a bit.

Also, as of late, I've been doing more L5/VO2 work:

• 
  Monday: Same
  Tuesday: 6x5min at ~290W
  Wednesday: 4-5x5min @ ~290W
  Thursday: SST ride
  Friday: EZ
  Sat/Sun: Same
  

Appreciate your input.

tight for time right now. Could you elaborate on the L4 Tuesday workout?

rmur17 said:

tight for time right now. Could you elaborate on the L4 Tuesday workout?

Sure. It's a "lunchtime ride" of ~1:10. After warming up (~10 min's) I basically TT to a certain landmark that takes ~45-47 min's over rolling terrain. IF is 1.0 - 1.0+ (~230W Pave/~240W Pnorm). After that I take a little break and really "hit it" on a short hill coming back for 1 min (400W-450W) then take it easy the rest of the way home.

Many thanks,
Dave

dkrenik said:

Sure. It's a "lunchtime ride" of ~1:10. After warming up (~10 min's) I basically TT to a certain landmark that takes ~45-47 min's over rolling terrain. IF is 1.0 - 1.0+ (~230W Pave/~240W Pnorm). After that I take a little break and really "hit it" on a short hill coming back for 1 min (400W-450W) then take it easy the rest of the way home.

Many thanks,
Dave

okay - IMHO I'd label that as a mid-L4 workouts rather than SST but perhaps I think of SST as slightly lower in intensity up to 0.95IF or so.

So in your 'L4 focus' weeks, I see two solid L4 sessions back to back followed by L3, then an easy day, then a typical Sat tempo-ish ride, with another light day to finish the week.

It doesn't sound unreasonable and neither does the L5 week where I assume the SST ride is actually mid-L4 again.

So we could be down to overall training load not being high enough. Plain ole CTL vs. historic norms is the big tell there. Or ... perhaps you're not working the L4 intervals hard enough? Or perhaps you're working them too hard?

If I were advising you on a coaching basis, I'd give no advice whatsover until I knew your background pretty well and where you have been or think you should be. Additional questions would be your weekly time constraints (job, family, etc). Further to the current specifics, I'd ask detailed questions about how you feel during and after each workout and prior to the following workout. Then there's diet, recent gain or loss in weight ...

In a nutshell, once the basics appear to be there, there are a lot of questions to ask in an effort to ascertain what the problem may be and how to tackle it.

I know that's not much help but perhaps it'll get you thinking about analyzing the issue and/or perhaps getting a coach.

Putting all that aside, if you not restricted on Sunday and everything else is 'okay', the first thing I would suggest is to get another solid workout in that day. After all, Monday is a rest day from cycling. Why take two in a row?
IME many people gravitate towards a 3-ON, 1-OFF/easy, 2-ON, 1-OFF/easy weekly schedule when trying to maximize their training. Not knowing anything else than your CTL is ~60, that's my best current suggestion.

Quoted post said:

So in your 'L4 focus' weeks, I see two solid L4 sessions back to back followed by L3

Actually, considering you're view on what constitutes SST work, you might consider what I call L3 as SST (High 3/Low 4)

Quoted post said:

So we could be down to overall training load not being high enough. Plain ole CTL vs. historic norms is the big tell there. Or ... perhaps you're not working the L4 intervals hard enough? Or perhaps you're working them too hard?

I suppose training load could be higher. One of the things I've learned since picking up a PM is that I definitely wasn't training enough before a PM

The L4 intervals (2x20) are done on rollers. I've noticed that I can't hold the power on rollers that I can hold on the road (as discussed on other threads & forums). In short, I don't believe that I could do them any "harder". I truly struggle to finish the 2nd 20 min interval.

Quoted post said:

If I were advising you on a coaching basis, I'd give no advice whatsover until I knew your background pretty well and where you have been or think you should be.

Understood

Quoted post said:

Additional questions would be your weekly time constraints (job, family, etc). Further to the current specifics, I'd ask detailed questions about how you feel during and after each workout and prior to the following workout. Then there's diet, recent gain or loss in weight ...

I feel fortunate that I can usually squeeze an hour to an hour and 15 min's into my work day for training. I've all the obligations that are typically associated with having pre-teen daughters (shuttle service for sports and music and such) so sometimes my weekend rides are solo instead of with the club.

Quoted post said:

I know that's not much help but perhaps it'll get you thinking about analyzing the issue and/or perhaps getting a coach.

Actually you've done plenty - thanks. I've been thinking plenty about getting a coach as I obviously can't figure this out myself.

Quoted post said:

Putting all that aside, if you not restricted on Sunday and everything else is 'okay', the first thing I would suggest is to get another solid workout in that day. After all, Monday is a rest day from cycling. Why take two in a row?

Agreed. This sounds like the best place to start.

Many thanks

A little background:

I'm 46 years young, 180 lbs (~16.5% body fat) working to get down to 174 lbs.

I've been racing bicycles for 25 years (Cat 4 the whole time - never upgraded). I've rarely raced more than 6 or so times in a season. When I was younger I could usually finish with the front 1/3 to 1/2 of the pack. I've done a few races this year in the 45+ and was literally blown out the back. Looks like I'll be doing 35+ Cat 4's the remainder of the season.

dkrenik said:

..... I've done a few races this year in the 45+ and was literally blown out the back. Looks like I'll be doing 35+ Cat 4's the remainder of the season.

Maybe, but don't relegate yourself to pack fill just yet 🙂
With a quarter century of riding and racing experience I suspect you don't need a lot of help in the bike handling, pack riding, wheel sucking department. I'd strongly suggest you skip the weekend group ride at least every other week and substitute a SST/L4 session on your own. I've got a similar background and when I got my PM last summer I had similar power numbers. I've always done group rides and since they had tough sections I always figured it was good training.

The key thing I look at differently now is how much time I spend completely in a given power level as opposed to what the peaks and long term averages work out to. Group rides often have some really hard minute or so efforts and sometimes a longer bit getting into the three to five minute range. If you're lucky enough to do group rides with sustained climbs(distinct possibility in Colorado) then fine you can get some good solid threshold work at your own pace. But if not it's unlikely you'll stay up in L4 or SST range long enough to really target adaptations to that energy system. Even if your IF works out to .8-.9 if the ride is flat to rolling it's likely you have some hard periods followed by a lot of pack cruising. Maybe the group you ride with rides at just that pace that's right for you to improve your FTP, but that's awfully slim odds.

Anyway, my FTP hovered in the low 200's a year ago (I'm also 46, have raced since the early '80s and although I spent a lot of years in the NorCal 3's I was packfill most of the time) it's at least 285 now and I'm probably due for another test soon since I knocked out over an hour of solid L4 intervals this morning and came home feeling great. The big difference for me is understanding the need to stay "in level" for enough time (3 minutes min. for VO2max, 10 minutes min for L4) and the need to train alone or with one or two compatible team mates.

I was thinking about this thread as I cooled down this morning. I had a real flat L4 workout on Wednesday, I'd bitten off a bit too much with L5 work on Tuesday and had added a few extra miles that day because the guy I was riding with is still focused on miles. I backed down to mid SST and pulled the plug about half an hour early on that L4 session. The next day I got three great hours of L3/SST and felt really strong. A rest day Friday and today I knocked out some of my best 20 minute numbers of the season and felt like I had a bit more in the tank. My point is that it sometimes pays to drop a notch into SST and extend the intervals when the legs feel flat. The other nice thing about a weekend SST/L4 session is it gets me used to a hard weekend day and that's when races typically occur. Tomorrow will be longer and easier, and then it starts all over again with a rest on Monday.

Anyway, don't get discouraged and with your years of experience you might consider skipping the team ride from time to time to work at your own best pace.

Good luck,
Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Maybe, but don't relegate yourself to pack fill just yet 🙂

Relegate? How about "aspire to"?

Quoted post said:

If you're lucky enough to do group rides with sustained climbs(distinct possibility in Colorado) then fine you can get some good solid threshold work at your own pace.

Yes, we've several rides up canyons along the front range that take anywhere from 30-40 min's to well over an hour.

Quoted post said:

Even if your IF works out to .8-.9 if the ride is flat to rolling it's likely you have some hard periods followed by a lot of pack cruising.

1st hour or so is pretty easy with just a couple of good jumps thrown in along the way. The pace picks up markedly after that.

Quoted post said:

Anyway, my FTP hovered in the low 200's a year ago (I'm also 46, have raced since the early '80s and although I spent a lot of years in the NorCal 3's I was packfill most of the time) it's at least 285 now and I'm probably due for another test soon since I knocked out over an hour of solid L4 intervals this morning and came home feeling great. The big difference for me is understanding the need to stay "in level" for enough time (3 minutes min. for VO2max, 10 minutes min for L4) and the need to train alone or with one or two compatible team mates.

Thanks. It's certainly reassuring to know that other folks have already done what I'm trying to do. I appreciate your insight.

Quoted post said:

Anyway, don't get discouraged and with your years of experience you might consider skipping the team ride from time to time to work at your own best pace.

Again, thanks for the encouragement. Time to get out & ride...

Dave

dkrenik,

Your situations sounds like mine with family and work, I get about the same about of training in in week as you and a lot of mine is on the trainer at 10:00 at night. I also do the Tues/Wed/Thurs then Sat/Sun format.

One thing I noticed from you ealier post is you're doing your 2x20s on the rollers. I found once I was able to get some L4 workouts done on the road this spring my FTP jumped. It seemed no matter how much I tried to work on my FTP on the trainer the last couple of months, I just couldn't seem to do it anymore. Earlier in the year when the weather was bad I could do it but after several months in the basement the motivation wasn't there. Getting out on the road (especially the hills) helped to get my FTP moving north again. I also mixed up my 2x20s with some being more in the 15 minute range and some in the 25 minute range. I was also able to do longer SST rides. I still use the trainer during the week when I can't fit a ride in. L4 on the trainer now tends to be shorter and at a higher level.

I just set new personal bests for my 3 minutes and 12 minute tests.

Oh yeah it's nice to see other humans with FTP in the 200's. After reading this forum for awhile I was starting to think my parents really screwed me over genetically. Everyone seems to have FTP in the 300's or more.

Quoted post said:

Your situations sounds like mine with family and work, I get about the same about of training in in week as you and a lot of mine is on the trainer at 10:00 at night. I also do the Tues/Wed/Thurs then Sat/Sun format.

One thing about this thread is that I'm finding more folks who are in, or have been in, the "same boat" as me wrt FTP frustration

Quoted post said:

One thing I noticed from you earlier post is you're doing your 2x20s on the rollers. I found once I was able to get some L4 workouts done on the road this spring my FTP jumped.

I've all but stopped the 2x20 roller work - too monotonous. I do mid to upper L4 work on the road (~45 min TT-type effort) - hasn't done mush for me at this point.

Quoted post said:

Getting out on the road (especially the hills) helped to get my FTP moving north again.

I've been doing most of my VO2/L5 work on hills (I've a few to choose from that let me do 5 min +/- intervals). As noted earlier, I've had good response there.

Quoted post said:

I also mixed up my 2x20s with some being more in the 15 minute range and some in the 25 minute range. I was also able to do longer SST rides.

Interesting that you mention this. I'm going to do L4 work on my rollers today (way too windy) and am thinking about how I might mix it up more. Something like 1x20, 1x10, 2x5 and bump the wattage up on each change in duration.

Quoted post said:

I just set new personal bests for my 3 minutes and 12 minute tests.

Cool. I'm trying to "bury" myself this week as I have travel most of next week. I'll be looking to do some testing when I return.

Quoted post said:

Oh yeah it's nice to see other humans with FTP in the 200's. After reading this forum for awhile I was starting to think my parents really screwed me over genetically. Everyone seems to have FTP in the 300's or more.

Amen brother!

In the same boat here age-wise, experience-wise and wattage-wise, but I'm not frustrated yet. I've only just got a power meter and I was obliged earlier this year to take two months off of training due to injury. Near as I can tell my FTP is somewhere between 235 and 250.

You say you respond well to VO2 max work, and so do I. Since we seem to have so many other similarities, I wonder if you, like me, tend not to go hard enough in your threshold intervals? Looking back at my pre-power meter days it's apparent that VO2 was about the only thing I really trained, for the simple reason that it's most natural for me. My nascent mean maximal power curve already starts to confirm that I'm best at sprinting and short efforts. In the past, I just figured that since 3 to 5 min. intervals are really difficult but not impossible, they were all I needed to do. I didn't even know 20 min. intervals were physically possible, much less why anyone would torture himself doing them (no surprise that I hated time trials with a passion). As a result of all this, even though I now understand the benefits of threshold training, I still find these long intervals to be excruciatingly hard mentally, and I tend to undercook them. In fact, I have yet to make a satisfactory FTP test. Does any of this sound familiar?

I'd be interested in advise for overcoming my threshold training weaknesses. First thing I'm going to try is reducing the interval length down to 10 minutes or so, since that still trains the right stuff, if I understand correctly. Then gradually build them up longer and longer.