Didn't get arrested ...

On Fri, 25 May 2007 21:23:46 +0100, "elyob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again. I think I'm
just too old for it. Too much unneccesary corking [1] and the group just
split up too much. Racing around Parliament Square again and again [2], one
bloke said "another half hour of this should be fun".

Sorry, but actually marshalling the event could make it a success.

[1] I saw 5 guys blocking a Merc van on the left, then two buses pulled out
of a side road and drove 100 metres.
[2] I did one lap then decided I really couldn't be bothered any blasted my
way home.

It got worse. When the cry went up to "occupy the square" and bikes lay
down on the road in front of Westminster Palace, I, too, packed up the
kids and went home. The police managed to clear at least one lane of
traffic, but I didn't want to be around when the water cannons arrived.

I thought the police did a good job of keeping traffic at bay and
keeping the mass moving. Did feel sorry for the one plod who was
standing next to his very mangled steed -- not sure if he collided with
a black cab or other riders.

Saw a black SUV facing the wrong way at the wedding cake, surrounded by
jeering riders. Not sure what happened; probably some aggro from the
motorist, but I didn't want to hang around.

Way too many riders, and not enough sound systems and fun. The ones I
enjoyed in the past were a fraction of the size, and far less "serious".

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"Paul Boyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble as
it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

You summed it up. It's my third and last. The majority of people seemed
nice, but wrong intentioned.

"Marc Brett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 May 2007 21:23:46 +0100, "elyob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again. I think I'm
just too old for it. Too much unneccesary corking [1] and the group just
split up too much. Racing around Parliament Square again and again [2],
one
bloke said "another half hour of this should be fun".

Sorry, but actually marshalling the event could make it a success.

[1] I saw 5 guys blocking a Merc van on the left, then two buses pulled
out
of a side road and drove 100 metres.
[2] I did one lap then decided I really couldn't be bothered any blasted
my
way home.

It got worse. When the cry went up to "occupy the square" and bikes lay
down on the road in front of Westminster Palace, I, too, packed up the
kids and went home. The police managed to clear at least one lane of
traffic, but I didn't want to be around when the water cannons arrived.

I thought the police did a good job of keeping traffic at bay and
keeping the mass moving. Did feel sorry for the one plod who was
standing next to his very mangled steed -- not sure if he collided with
a black cab or other riders.

Saw a black SUV facing the wrong way at the wedding cake, surrounded by
jeering riders. Not sure what happened; probably some aggro from the
motorist, but I didn't want to hang around.

I was there for that, but I also saw "earlier" one big 4x4 getting so angry
he was using the car as a weapon.

Sickly I enjoyed watching his anger.

The black SUV, there were a lot of people clapping and winding his wife up
(putting pretend parking tickets under their wipers).

I do believe that one day some of those [censored] (pretend cyclists) will see
the bad end of someones temper.

I met a few nice people at the start, and I look forward to doing the
Dynamo. However as soon as it got started ... I was just waiting for a place
to recognise to "get home".

I turned up with the best of intentions, but maybe the police have a point.
Critical mass came from necessity, not political. I had an hour cycle there
and back .. 30 miles in two hours. One hour wasted in London doing walking
pace.

Sorry, Des ... you take your bike on the train from Kingston, and probably
back. There are a lot more people who get up every day and commute. You're
not representing the mass. The mass now is people who want to A-B or A-Z on
their bikes.

Nick

Quoted message said:

Way too many riders, and not enough sound systems and fun. The ones I
enjoyed in the past were a fraction of the size, and far less "serious".

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Nick said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

Quoted message said:

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

It is quite possible to arrange events that encourage motorists to share
the road with cyclists and others. There will always be idiots in cars.
Haranguing people is a proven method of failing to win hearts and minds.

Cheers,
Luke
--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,
> .. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

Quoted message said:

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

Yes but that is avoiding the question.

Being assertive often causes resentment but it also makes people more
aware of you. Meekly doing as others wish may not cause resentment but
it does mean they are less likely to think about you or notice you.

Quoted message said:

It is quite possible to arrange events that encourage motorists to share
the road with cyclists and others. There will always be idiots in cars.
Haranguing people is a proven method of failing to win hearts and minds.

My goal is for them to notice me and not knock me off my bike not to win
hearts and minds.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
Luke

Nick wrote on 26/05/2007 10:41 +0100:

Quoted message said:

My goal is for them to notice me and not knock me off my bike not to win
hearts and minds.

And how often when you have been upset cycling by a driver have you
mentally plotted or even carried out your revenge? Do you think the
same might apply in reverse?

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>, Nick
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

So the next time a motorist who has been the victim of CM harrassment
sees a lone cyclist he can't wait to exact revenge - great idea.

Tony Raven said:

Nick wrote on 26/05/2007 10:41 +0100:

Quoted message said:

My goal is for them to notice me and not knock me off my bike not to win
hearts and minds.

And how often when you have been upset cycling by a driver have you
mentally plotted or even carried out your revenge? Do you think the
same might apply in reverse?

quite, car drivers are human as well! with all those human emotions.

roger

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,

Quoted message said:

.. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
damage cyclist's reputations even further.

quite, while i think any one who rides can't help to have some symphathy
for critical mass.

it plays into the hands of the "cyclist don't belive in traffic laws"
folks. and frankly hands it to them on a platter.

roger

On 26/05/2007 14:11, Roger Merriman said,

Quoted message said:

quite, car drivers are human as well! with all those human emotions.

No, no, no. You meant to say "car drivers are *usually* human as well".
I have come across some where their genetic make-up is in some doubt :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Nick said:

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick said:

Paul Boyd wrote:
> On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,
>> .. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

Quoted message said:

> The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
> understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
> as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
> damage cyclist's reputations even further.

Quoted message said:

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

Quoted message said:

Yes but that is avoiding the question.

Being assertive often causes resentment but it also makes people more
aware of you. Meekly doing as others wish may not cause resentment but
it does mean they are less likely to think about you or notice you.

Who said anything about being meek? Certainly not me. I am an assertive
road user, whether in my car, on my bike or on Shank's pony. I am also a
defensive road user.

The former means that I make my intentions clear and stick to them
wherever it is prudent to do so.

The latter means that I expect every other road user to be a fool.
Please note, 'assertive' does not mean 'bullying'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is quite possible to arrange events that encourage motorists to share
the road with cyclists and others. There will always be idiots in cars.
Haranguing people is a proven method of failing to win hearts and minds.

Quoted message said:

My goal is for them to notice me and not knock me off my bike not to win
hearts and minds.

What's the point of a Critical Mass event? If you honestly believe that
it takes such an event to be noticed and not to be knocked off then you
may as well buy an SUV.

In twenty-four years of cycling on roads I have only ever been knocked
off once. That was when I, at the age of twelve, learnt that it's
foolish to ride up the left-hand side of a car that is indicating left.

I have cycled and still do cycle on whatever roads take my fancy. I have
never yet seen the need to antagonize random motorists. If you have then
it's perhaps time you looked at how you use the road. Certainly, an
intelligent cycling style may cause resentment but that is a different
matter.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

Paul Boyd said:

On 26/05/2007 14:11, Roger Merriman said,

Quoted message said:

quite, car drivers are human as well! with all those human emotions.

No, no, no. You meant to say "car drivers are *usually* human as well".
I have come across some where their genetic make-up is in some doubt :-)

I have come across some bicycle riders where it has been seriously
difficult to tell whether they would drag their knuckles if they
walked. Lots of animals lack colour vision. :-\

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick said:

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Paul Boyd wrote:
>> On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,
>>> .. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.
>> The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
>> understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
>> as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
>> damage cyclist's reputations even further.
> I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
> motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
> aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

Quoted message said:

Yes but that is avoiding the question.

Being assertive often causes resentment but it also makes people more
aware of you. Meekly doing as others wish may not cause resentment but
it does mean they are less likely to think about you or notice you.

Who said anything about being meek? Certainly not me. I am an assertive
road user, whether in my car, on my bike or on Shank's pony. I am also a
defensive road user.

The former means that I make my intentions clear and stick to them
wherever it is prudent to do so.

The latter means that I expect every other road user to be a fool.
Please note, 'assertive' does not mean 'bullying'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is quite possible to arrange events that encourage motorists to share
the road with cyclists and others. There will always be idiots in cars.
Haranguing people is a proven method of failing to win hearts and minds.

Quoted message said:

My goal is for them to notice me and not knock me off my bike not to win
hearts and minds.

What's the point of a Critical Mass event? If you honestly believe that
it takes such an event to be noticed and not to be knocked off then you
may as well buy an SUV.

In twenty-four years of cycling on roads I have only ever been knocked
off once. That was when I, at the age of twelve, learnt that it's
foolish to ride up the left-hand side of a car that is indicating left.

You're lucky I was knocked off a couple of weeks ago. A SUV waiting in a
queue behind bus suddenly decided to pull out on the right with out
looking or signalling, they didn't bother stopping. I suppose as you
have never had an accident that must be my fault.

Quoted message said:

I have cycled and still do cycle on whatever roads take my fancy. I have
never yet seen the need to antagonize random motorists. If you have then
it's perhaps time you looked at how you use the road. Certainly, an
intelligent cycling style may cause resentment but that is a different
matter.

Why is it a different matter, both make drivers more aware of bikes.
Both also cause resentment of bike riders and may lead a driver to
attack or target cyclists however as I said on balance I believe the
benefit from hightened awareness outweighs the negative risks.

I myself have never been to a critical mass but believe I benefit from
those who do go.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
Luke

Nick said:

Ekul Namsob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the point of a Critical Mass event? If you honestly believe that
it takes such an event to be noticed and not to be knocked off then you
may as well buy an SUV.

In twenty-four years of cycling on roads I have only ever been knocked
off once. That was when I, at the age of twelve, learnt that it's
foolish to ride up the left-hand side of a car that is indicating left.

You're lucky I was knocked off a couple of weeks ago. A SUV waiting in a
queue behind bus suddenly decided to pull out on the right with out
looking or signalling, they didn't bother stopping. I suppose as you
have never had an accident that must be my fault.

Your logic does not bear up to close scrutiny here. I may have been
lucky so far. It may have been (in part) your fault.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have cycled and still do cycle on whatever roads take my fancy. I have
never yet seen the need to antagonize random motorists. If you have then
it's perhaps time you looked at how you use the road. Certainly, an
intelligent cycling style may cause resentment but that is a different
matter.

Quoted message said:

Why is it a different matter, both make drivers more aware of bikes.
Both also cause resentment of bike riders and may lead a driver to
attack or target cyclists however as I said on balance I believe the
benefit from hightened awareness outweighs the negative risks.

Antagonising random motorists causes resentment even among those who may
be generally sympathetic towards cyclists. Cycling intelligently causes
resentment among those who start off believing that cyclists do not
belong on the road.

As it remains my experience that 99% of motorists treat cyclists with
respect it would seem pointless to go out of my way to annoy them on the
off chance that I find the 1%.

Quoted message said:

I myself have never been to a critical mass but believe I benefit from
those who do go.

What is the point of a Critical Mass event?

Cheers,
Luke

--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:22:46 +0100 someone who may be Marc Brett
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Way too many riders, and not enough sound systems and fun.

Operators of sound systems on bicycles have endless trouble from the
police in London. They are apparently not allowed in the "democracy"
zone around Mr Liar's lair where freedom of speech is not allowed.
Of course the police appear entirely happy for sound systems on cars
to blast out in exactly the same zone.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Nick said:

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick said:

Paul Boyd wrote:
> On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,
>> .. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.

Quoted message said:

> The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
> understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
> as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
> damage cyclist's reputations even further.

Quoted message said:

I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.

Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

Quoted message said:

Yes but that is avoiding the question.

Quoted message said:

Being assertive often causes resentment but it also makes people more
aware of you. Meekly doing as others wish may not cause resentment but
it does mean they are less likely to think about you or notice you.

But you shouldn't be selfish about it. Don't forget to factor in the
other cyclists and pedestrians that they hit because they were paying
attention to your annoying behaviour.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm said:

Nick said:

Ekul Namsob said:

Nick <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Paul Boyd wrote:
>> On 25/05/2007 21:23, elyob said,
>>> .. but also didn't really enjoy the critical mass once again.
>> The whole thing just seems to serve to antagonize motorists. I can't
>> understand why cyclists would want to do that - we have enough trouble
>> as it is without deliberately going out of the way to look for it and to
>> damage cyclist's reputations even further.
> I won't claim to know the answer for sure but I think antagonizing
> motorists is on balance a good thing because it makes the motorists more
> aware of the cyclist. Better to be seen and hated than not seen at all.
Better to be seen and appreciated than seen and hated.

Quoted message said:

Yes but that is avoiding the question.

Quoted message said:

Being assertive often causes resentment but it also makes people more
aware of you. Meekly doing as others wish may not cause resentment but
it does mean they are less likely to think about you or notice you.

But you shouldn't be selfish about it. Don't forget to factor in the
other cyclists and pedestrians that they hit because they were paying
attention to your annoying behaviour.

Actually I think assertive behaviour makes motorists more aware of
cyclists in general.

If you don't like my attitude and want to say something negative I will
concede that it may make them more likely to beat their wives or kids
when the get home.