Cross-country shoes

Colm Gallagher said:

Hi,

I'm thinking of doing some cross country runs over the winter and I'm looking for advice on shoe
choice. What's good in the way of neutral shoes with good heel cushioning?

I recommend the "Snowflake 5000" series, they are the best snow shoe out there.

"Colm Gallagher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm thinking of doing some cross country runs over the winter and I'm

looking for advice on shoe

Quoted message said:

choice. What's good in the way of neutral shoes with good heel cushioning?

Are we talking about UK cross-country or trail running? Having stumbled around a UK xc race just
this afternoon, I can only say that from observing what others were wearing, cushioning comes a
*long* way down the list of features built into an xc shoe.

The spiked shoes that many were running in have zero cushioning and the Walsh fell shoes I wear have
next-to-zero cushioning.

It's the squidgy ground that provides the cushioning.

Tim

You could be right about the cushioning. It's something I have no experience of. I've only been
running for 6 months. I run in Asics Kayanos because they provide the most cushioning (I'm currently
weighing 185 lb). I'm looking to find whatever trail shoe is on the market for the average big
lummox like myself.

--
Colm

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Are we talking about UK cross-country or trail running? Having stumbled around a UK xc race just
: this afternoon, I can only say that from observing what others were wearing, cushioning comes a
: *long* way down the list of features built into an xc shoe.
:
: The spiked shoes that many were running in have zero cushioning and the Walsh fell shoes I wear
: have next-to-zero cushioning.
:
: It's the squidgy ground that provides the cushioning.

Colm Gallagher said:

You could be right about the cushioning. It's something I have no experience of. I've only been
running for 6 months. I run in Asics Kayanos because they provide the most cushioning (I'm
currently weighing 185 lb). I'm looking to find whatever trail shoe is on the market for the
average big lummox like myself.

I'd avoid excessive cushioning and high heels in a trail shoe, but that's me. Both contribute to
instability. Trails themselves, unless rocky or lots of roots, will generally be easier on your feet
and body. But the uneven surface may challenge some of your foot / ankle muscles as they are
subjected to new experiences. Hence, the reason to have a firm footbed in a shoe. Good biomechanics
will help reduce impact pressure. Depending upon your ankle strength, biomechanics, you might want
to break into trail running easily and maybe even do some supplemental strengthening (balancing)
work for ankles. And hay fields, while soft to run in, have got to be among the most deceptively
unstable surfaces.

If you're running on a rails-to-trails or similar even surface, you can probably continue to use
your road shoes. As you get toward rougher, rockier footing, you might consider something with more
foot protection (some Montrails, Brooks Trespass II, etc). This is a continuum and different people
have different preferences. If "winter" means snow to you (as it does to many, like myself back when
winter used to come to Alaska), then be sure to get something with lugs for traction. If it means
constant mud, you might consider a tread that releases mud (might be same concept for snow too). I'm
not sure which shoes they are.

Since you've only been running 6 months, I'll assume you're not looking for something to run up the
Matterhorn with. I'm not sure how the various trail shoes are rated for weight and pronation, so you
may want to check that, but here's a couple suggestions. I've been using Brooks Trespass 1
(stability) for almost a year and am pretty happy with it. An ultra runner (male, I think somewhere
in upper 100's, possibly heavier than you) has used them along with other trail shoes for about a
year and has just started with Trespass II, which everyone is considering an improvement on a good
shoe. (I haven't seen one yet.) It apparently has a forefoot plate, like the Montrail Vitesse, but
it still maintains it's flexibiliy. People have referred to the Trespass as a racing flat for
trails. The T2 has been compared to the Vitesse as far as forefoot protection is concerned - and
that says a lot.

If you need motion control, you might look at Brooks Addiction trail version.

You might also check over on the RW shoe or trail/ultra forum or both. You might want to provide a
little more background on exactly what type terrain you're intending to run. In *many* cases, road
shoes will work quite fine. I used Saucony Grid Stabils (motion control) for my early trail running,
but my PT switched me to Trespass about a year ago for biomechanical reasons (actually the
Adrenaline but since I was running trails, he substituted the Trespass).

But enjoy your trail / cross-country running! It's a lot more interesting and challenging than
roads, IMHO.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

PS: Take a look at this thread for comments about kayano 9 for trail running. Gel Eagle 2 is a trail
shoe and somewhat stiff compared to Trespass.
rwforums.rodale.comviewThread.jspOpen ↗

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:55:29 GMT, Dot wrote:

Dot's made some good points here. I'd like to emphasize her comments about terrain. The XC runs
around here are on sand, pine needles/live oak leaves (both very slippery), and swamp mud. The fast
folks as well as my kind of folks (fat and slow) use the same shoe techniques - regular trainers
with no cleats. The cleats tend to either clog up or not penetrate the slippery ground cover. The
real key, at least around here, seems to be running technique, not shoes (It Ain't about the Shoe).
I would imagine that to be true about rocks XCs but we don't have any rocks.

XC/trail running techniques, at least from what I've seen, are somewhat different than road
running techniques. Naturally, there seems to be a lot of overlap but there are differences
that tend to consume beginners. The most obvious one is that when you push off, your foot will
slip. I have seen a couple of custom made shoes that had a cleat (or two) at the toe but I
haven't seen a regular shoe like that. The guys who wore them weren't convinced that the toe
cleats helped with slippage.

Another issue with cleats is that they raise your foot off the ground in a different way from
trainers. An XC or trail run may have sections where there are roots, logs, and/or buried rocks.
Some people around here have found that they tend to catch their cleats on these but their trainers
don't seem to have as big a problem with the obstacles.

This may be a personal issue and remember that I run very slowly. I've found that it's more
efficient for me to shift my foot landing back a little. For me this is midfoot since my natural
landing is forefoot. By shifting my landing back a little, I'm able to maintain more shoe contact
with the ground and thus increase stability. This will slow you down a bit and isn't needed for
grass but it does seem to help on rougher terrain.

One thing you might want to try is removing the insert from your trainers if you are going to be
running through water. Since you're wearing cusioned shoes, I'm assuming that you don't need
orthotics. I haven't found that taking out the insert helps but some of the faster people around
here swear by it.

This is a very simple thing but you'll really want to double knot your laces no matter what kind of
shoe you wear. On an XC/trail run there will be all sorts of things grabbing at the loops. I tend to
be a little paranoid so I also tuck the loop ends under the laces on the tongue.

I'm sure that there are more things about XC/trail running when compared to road running but they're
escaping me now.

Layne

Quoted message said:

Colm Gallagher said:

You could be right about the cushioning. It's something I have no experience of. I've only been
running for 6 months. I run in Asics Kayanos because they provide the most cushioning (I'm
currently weighing 185 lb). I'm looking to find whatever trail shoe is on the market for the
average big lummox like myself.

I'd avoid excessive cushioning and high heels in a trail shoe, but that's me. Both contribute to
instability. Trails themselves, unless rocky or lots of roots, will generally be easier on your
feet and body. But the uneven surface may challenge some of your foot / ankle muscles as they are
subjected to new experiences. Hence, the reason to have a firm footbed in a shoe. Good biomechanics
will help reduce impact pressure. Depending upon your ankle strength, biomechanics, you might want
to break into trail running easily and maybe even do some supplemental strengthening (balancing)
work for ankles. And hay fields, while soft to run in, have got to be among the most deceptively
unstable surfaces.

If you're running on a rails-to-trails or similar even surface, you can probably continue to use
your road shoes. As you get toward rougher, rockier footing, you might consider something with more
foot protection (some Montrails, Brooks Trespass II, etc). This is a continuum and different people
have different preferences. If "winter" means snow to you (as it does to many, like myself back
when winter used to come to Alaska), then be sure to get something with lugs for traction. If it
means constant mud, you might consider a tread that releases mud (might be same concept for snow
too). I'm not sure which shoes they are.

Since you've only been running 6 months, I'll assume you're not looking for something to run up the
Matterhorn with. I'm not sure how the various trail shoes are rated for weight and pronation, so
you may want to check that, but here's a couple suggestions. I've been using Brooks Trespass 1
(stability) for almost a year and am pretty happy with it. An ultra runner (male, I think somewhere
in upper 100's, possibly heavier than you) has used them along with other trail shoes for about a
year and has just started with Trespass II, which everyone is considering an improvement on a good
shoe. (I haven't seen one yet.) It apparently has a forefoot plate, like the Montrail Vitesse, but
it still maintains it's flexibiliy. People have referred to the Trespass as a racing flat for
trails. The T2 has been compared to the Vitesse as far as forefoot protection is concerned - and
that says a lot.

If you need motion control, you might look at Brooks Addiction trail version.

You might also check over on the RW shoe or trail/ultra forum or both. You might want to provide a
little more background on exactly what type terrain you're intending to run. In *many* cases, road
shoes will work quite fine. I used Saucony Grid Stabils (motion control) for my early trail
running, but my PT switched me to Trespass about a year ago for biomechanical reasons (actually the
Adrenaline but since I was running trails, he substituted the Trespass).

But enjoy your trail / cross-country running! It's a lot more interesting and challenging than
roads, IMHO.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at kinder.cis.unf.edurec.runningOpen ↗

Great information Dot. Thanks! I've done about 80% of my running on trails just using my road
shoes, but I'm not sure they're going to be up to running in fields during winter. I'm in Ireland
so rain and mud is more or less guaranteed. Also, a colleague is trying to rope me into some
mountain running this winter and I'll probably do that too. I'll research what yourself and Layne
have given me.

Thanks again,

--
Colm

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS: Take a look at this thread for comments about kayano 9 for trail running. Gel Eagle 2 is a
trail shoe and somewhat stiff compared to Trespass.
rwforums.rodale.comviewThread.jspOpen ↗

Thanks Layne,

Plenty for me to go on there.

--
Colm

"Layne Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:55:29 GMT, Dot wrote:

Dot's made some good points here. I'd like to emphasize her comments about terrain. The XC runs
around here are on sand, pine needles/live oak leaves (both very slippery), and swamp mud. The
fast folks as well as my kind of folks (fat and slow) use the same shoe techniques - regular
trainers with

no

Quoted message said:

cleats. The cleats tend to either clog up or not penetrate the slippery ground cover. The real
key, at least around here, seems to be running technique, not shoes (It Ain't about the Shoe). I
would imagine that to be true about rocks XCs but we don't have any rocks.

XC/trail running techniques, at least from what I've seen, are somewhat different than road
running techniques. Naturally, there seems to be a lot

of

Quoted message said:

overlap but there are differences that tend to consume beginners. The most obvious one is that
when you push off, your foot will slip. I have seen a couple of custom made shoes that had a cleat
(or two) at the toe but I haven't seen a regular shoe like that. The guys who wore them weren't
convinced that the toe cleats helped with slippage.

Another issue with cleats is that they raise your foot off the ground in a different way from
trainers. An XC or trail run may have sections where

there

Quoted message said:

are roots, logs, and/or buried rocks. Some people around here have found

that

Quoted message said:

they tend to catch their cleats on these but their trainers don't seem to have as big a problem
with the obstacles.

This may be a personal issue and remember that I run very slowly. I've

found

Quoted message said:

that it's more efficient for me to shift my foot landing back a little.

For

Quoted message said:

me this is midfoot since my natural landing is forefoot. By shifting my landing back a little, I'm
able to maintain more shoe contact with the

ground

Quoted message said:

and thus increase stability. This will slow you down a bit and isn't

needed

Quoted message said:

for grass but it does seem to help on rougher terrain.

One thing you might want to try is removing the insert from your trainers

if

Quoted message said:

you are going to be running through water. Since you're wearing cusioned shoes, I'm assuming that
you don't need orthotics. I haven't found that taking out the insert helps but some of the faster
people around here

swear

Quoted message said:

by it.

This is a very simple thing but you'll really want to double knot your

laces

Quoted message said:

no matter what kind of shoe you wear. On an XC/trail run there will be all sorts of things
grabbing at the loops. I tend to be a little paranoid so I also tuck the loop ends under the laces
on the tongue.

I'm sure that there are more things about XC/trail running when compared

to

Quoted message said:

road running but they're escaping me now.

Layne

Quoted message said:

Colm Gallagher said:

You could be right about the cushioning. It's something I have no

experience of. I've only been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

running for 6 months. I run in Asics Kayanos because they provide the

most cushioning (I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

currently weighing 185 lb). I'm looking to find whatever trail shoe is

on the market for the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

average big lummox like myself.

I'd avoid excessive cushioning and high heels in a trail shoe, but that's me. Both contribute to
instability. Trails themselves, unless rocky or lots of roots, will generally be easier on your
feet and body. But the uneven surface may challenge some of your foot / ankle muscles as they are
subjected to new experiences. Hence, the reason to have a firm footbed in a shoe. Good
biomechanics will help reduce impact pressure. Depending upon your ankle strength, biomechanics,
you might want to break into trail running easily and maybe even do some supplemental
strengthening (balancing) work for ankles. And hay fields, while soft to run in, have got to be
among the most deceptively unstable surfaces.

If you're running on a rails-to-trails or similar even surface, you can probably continue to use
your road shoes. As you get toward rougher, rockier footing, you might consider something with
more foot protection (some Montrails, Brooks Trespass II, etc). This is a continuum and different
people have different preferences. If "winter" means snow to you (as it does to many, like myself
back when winter used to come to Alaska), then be sure to get something with lugs for traction.
If it means constant mud, you might consider a tread that releases mud (might be same concept for
snow too). I'm not sure which shoes they are.

Since you've only been running 6 months, I'll assume you're not looking for something to run up
the Matterhorn with. I'm not sure how the various trail shoes are rated for weight and pronation,
so you may want to check that, but here's a couple suggestions. I've been using Brooks Trespass 1
(stability) for almost a year and am pretty happy with it. An ultra runner (male, I think
somewhere in upper 100's, possibly heavier than you) has used them along with other trail shoes
for about a year and has just started with Trespass II, which everyone is considering an
improvement on a good shoe. (I haven't seen one yet.) It apparently has a forefoot plate, like
the Montrail Vitesse, but it still maintains it's flexibiliy. People have referred to the
Trespass as a racing flat for trails. The T2 has been compared to the Vitesse as far as forefoot
protection is concerned - and that says a lot.

If you need motion control, you might look at Brooks Addiction trail version.

You might also check over on the RW shoe or trail/ultra forum or both. You might want to provide
a little more background on exactly what type terrain you're intending to run. In *many* cases,
road shoes will work quite fine. I used Saucony Grid Stabils (motion control) for my early trail
running, but my PT switched me to Trespass about a year ago for biomechanical reasons (actually
the Adrenaline but since I was running trails, he substituted the Trespass).

But enjoy your trail / cross-country running! It's a lot more interesting and challenging than
roads, IMHO.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at

kinder.cis.unf.edurec.runningOpen ↗