HPV advice needed.

"Mike Sales" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The shoulder pain which prevents me cycling has now been diagnosed as
arthritis. If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a recumbent
may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied brains of this
group could give, as to which model.
I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would
like the possibility of guards and rack. Preferably not suspension, but I
appreciate that it is common on HPVs. I am a competent mechanic, so
building or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found
it twisty and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee
bend.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

Mike Sales

Are you taking glucosamine? I know several people who find it makes a
significant difference, particularly for shoulder/elbow pains. It can take a
few weeks to take effect - but it makes a big difference if it works.

Mike Sales said:

I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would like
the possibility of guards and rack. Preferably not suspension, but I
appreciate that it is common on HPVs. I am a competent mechanic, so building
or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found it twisty
and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee bend.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

How long have you got 🙂
www.bentrideronline.com is probably the best on-line resource with
links to many of the brands available, and masses of discussion on the
pros/cons of various designs.
I'd strongly suggest a day visit to your nearest dealer to try a few
out: depending upon where in the country you are that might be
Futurecycles in East Sussex, London Recumbents at Dulwich Park,
Bikefix in central London, DTek in Norfolk (the place for secondhand
'bents), Laid Back in Edinburgh, Kinetics in Glasgow or Norman Fay
Cycles in South Shields (apologies for those I have missed out).
Alternatively take a mini-break to the Netherlands and visit some of
their recumbent dealers.
If you'd care to say what sort of riding you will be doing, then you
might get a few constructive suggestions here, but, more
realistically, a visit to the fora(?) at www.bhpc.org.uk or www.velovision.co.uk
would be more profitable.
Good luck with your new quest 😉

In news:[email hidden],
Mike Sales <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions gratefully received.

If at all possible, hie thee to D-Tek, located in Little Thetford (near
Ely). Kevin Dunseath has more different machinery which one might try out
that anywhere else in the country.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Help me, Mrs. Medleycott, I don't know what to do. I've only
got three bullets and there's four of Mötley Crüe.

Mike Sales said:

If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a recumbent
may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied brains of this
group could give, as to which model.

Best way to decide is ride as many as you can. UK dealers tend to work
with lots of demo bikes, and the Usual Suspects are Kinetics (Glasgow),
Laidback (Edinburgh), Norman Fay (South Shields), Futurecycles (E.
Sussex), London Recumbents (London & Brighton), Bikefix (London) and
D-Tek (Ely).
Also consider a trip over the North Sea to NL, where you can play at the
likes of Ligfietswinkel in Amsterdam and Ligfiets Centrum in Brielle
(and several others too). Westcountry Recumbents (Hull), but they're
trikes only IIRC)

Quoted message said:

I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would like
the possibility of guards and rack.

Most 'bents are characterised with a huge range of options fitted at
delivery, so you can have minimalist or maximalist and everything in
between.

Quoted message said:

Preferably not suspension, but I
appreciate that it is common on HPVs.

It's easy enough to get an unsuspended one if you want, but don't write
it off. My first 'bent didn't have any and when it got written off I
was a bit suspicious of suspension as I'd done fine without it, but with
hindsight it's actually Rather Good. It does make more sense n a 'bent:
first off, you're not going up and down so there's much less tendency to
pogo, and second off, you can't stand on the pedals and use your own
legs as shockers on the rough bits.
Done properly (and quite a lot of them are done proerly) the suspension
actually makes the bike more efficient over anything other than
billiard-table class tarmac. Extra comfort is more of a side benefit
than anything else.

Back to the "ride everything you can" advice, you should end up on both
suspended and unsuspended bikes: try before deciding.

Quoted message said:

I am a competent mechanic, so building
or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found it twisty
and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee bend.

Underseat steering will get you around most problems of knee bend,
tiller-type overseat is also unlikely to cause knee conflicts.

Beyond that, try and narrow down *functionally* what sort of bike you
want: my 'bent is a tourer, and actually has more in common with a
Galaxy than a lowracer recumbent. What sort of "normal" bike would you
be after if you were buying a new one with no arthritis gotchas? If we
know that, we can match functionally similar recumbents for a shortlist.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"OG" wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Mike Sales" wrote >> The shoulder pain which prevents me cycling has now
been diagnosed as

Quoted message said:

arthritis. If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a
recumbent may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied
brains of this group could give, as to which model.
I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would
like the possibility of guards and rack. Preferably not suspension, but I
appreciate that it is common on HPVs. I am a competent mechanic, so
building or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found
it twisty and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee
bend.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

Mike Sales

Are you taking glucosamine? I know several people who find it makes a
significant difference, particularly for shoulder/elbow pains. It can take
a few weeks to take effect - but it makes a big difference if it works.

I tried it with no discernable result, then read Ben Goldacre's "Bad
Science" in the Guardian. He concludes that the studies show its no use
except in a minority of special cases.

Mike Sales

"squeaker" wrote in message >>

Quoted message said:

How long have you got 🙂
www.bentrideronline.com is probably the best on-line resource with
links to many of the brands available, and masses of discussion on the
pros/cons of various designs.
I'd strongly suggest a day visit to your nearest dealer to try a few
out: depending upon where in the country you are that might be
Futurecycles in East Sussex, London Recumbents at Dulwich Park,
Bikefix in central London, DTek in Norfolk (the place for secondhand
'bents), Laid Back in Edinburgh, Kinetics in Glasgow or Norman Fay
Cycles in South Shields (apologies for those I have missed out).
Alternatively take a mini-break to the Netherlands and visit some of
their recumbent dealers.
If you'd care to say what sort of riding you will be doing, then you
might get a few constructive suggestions here, but, more
realistically, a visit to the fora(?) at www.bhpc.org.uk or
www.velovision.co.uk
would be more profitable.
Good luck with your new quest 😉

Thanks for the suugestions. I will use it, if I find it works for me, for
all sorts. Transport to work, shopping (in a small town) pleasure including
rides as far as I can manage, which was up to 100 miles on uprights. Not
racing!

Mike Sales

"Dave Larrington" wrote >

Quoted message said:

If at all possible, hie thee to D-Tek, located in Little Thetford (near
Ely). Kevin Dunseath has more different machinery which one might try out
that anywhere else in the country.

--
Dave Larrington

That seems the nearest, thanks.

Mike Sales

"Peter Clinch" wrote >

Quoted message said:

Best way to decide is ride as many as you can. UK dealers tend to work
with lots of demo bikes, and the Usual Suspects are Kinetics (Glasgow),
Laidback (Edinburgh), Norman Fay (South Shields), Futurecycles (E.
Sussex), London Recumbents (London & Brighton), Bikefix (London) and D-Tek
(Ely).
Also consider a trip over the North Sea to NL, where you can play at the
likes of Ligfietswinkel in Amsterdam and Ligfiets Centrum in Brielle (and
several others too). Westcountry Recumbents (Hull), but they're trikes
only IIRC)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would
like the possibility of guards and rack.

Most 'bents are characterised with a huge range of options fitted at
delivery, so you can have minimalist or maximalist and everything in
between.

Quoted message said:

Preferably not suspension, but I appreciate that it is common on HPVs.

It's easy enough to get an unsuspended one if you want, but don't write it
off. My first 'bent didn't have any and when it got written off I was a
bit suspicious of suspension as I'd done fine without it, but with
hindsight it's actually Rather Good. It does make more sense n a 'bent:
first off, you're not going up and down so there's much less tendency to
pogo, and second off, you can't stand on the pedals and use your own legs
as shockers on the rough bits.
Done properly (and quite a lot of them are done proerly) the suspension
actually makes the bike more efficient over anything other than
billiard-table class tarmac. Extra comfort is more of a side benefit than
anything else.

I will think about it.

Quoted message said:

Back to the "ride everything you can" advice, you should end up on both
suspended and unsuspended bikes: try before deciding.

Quoted message said:

I am a competent mechanic, so building or rebuilding is no problem. I
had a Kingcycle years ago, found it twisty and had to tilt the seat back
to accomodate my lack of knee bend.

Underseat steering will get you around most problems of knee bend,
tiller-type overseat is also unlikely to cause knee conflicts.

I should have written hip bend. I have a limited range of movement, so that
I cannot draw my thigh at all close to my chest. I really have just enough
movement to ride a bike, as long as I don't get reall flat on the bars.

Quoted message said:

Beyond that, try and narrow down *functionally* what sort of bike you
want: my 'bent is a tourer, and actually has more in common with a Galaxy
than a lowracer recumbent. What sort of "normal" bike would you be after
if you were buying a new one with no arthritis gotchas? If we know that,
we can match functionally similar recumbents for a shortlist.

Pete.

I like road bikes, perhaps Audax type sums it up. I have several bikes, one
stripped down road racer, with triple, another is my commuter/shopper with
racks, guards, dynamo, panniers, but still 23mm. tyres. Also fixed wheel and
folder for travelling with. Of course I don't expect one recumbent to
replace all these functions.

Mike Sales

Quoted message said:

--

Mike Sales wrote:
[suspension]

Quoted message said:

I will think about it.

Demoing certainly aids the process...

Quoted message said:

I should have written hip bend. I have a limited range of movement, so that
I cannot draw my thigh at all close to my chest.

Could be that some of the relatively high bottom bracket machines might
be a problem, but again the best way by far to find out is get on and
try a few. If it won't work you'll know straight away.

Quoted message said:

I like road bikes, perhaps Audax type sums it up. I have several bikes, one
stripped down road racer, with triple, another is my commuter/shopper with
racks, guards, dynamo, panniers, but still 23mm. tyres.

Perhaps something like an HPVel Speedmachine, assuming the relatively
high BB as mentioned above doesn't bugger things up. They're pretty
fast, because they're low and have good aero as a result. As mentioned
before, you can have them bare bones or add kitchen sink degrees of
extras straight off the factory price list. Others in the general
ballpark would be Challenge Hurricance, Optima Stinger, Nazca Fuego,
Bachetta Giro (that's a simple unsuspended one, btw). You can go more
general purpose and less fast with things like the HPVel Grasshopper, or
a bit sportier (Challenge Fujin, Nazca Fuego etc.). You really can use
the first set as practical general purpose machines if you want: Dave
Larrington commutes on a Speedmachine, and the current model will take 4
panniers if you want; my wife has toured with full camping luggage on a
Fiero, and so on.

HTH, Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote >

Quoted message said:

Perhaps something like an HPVel Speedmachine, assuming the relatively high
BB as mentioned above doesn't bugger things up. They're pretty fast,
because they're low and have good aero as a result. As mentioned before,
you can have them bare bones or add kitchen sink degrees of extras
straight off the factory price list. Others in the general ballpark would
be Challenge Hurricance, Optima Stinger, Nazca Fuego, Bachetta Giro
(that's a simple unsuspended one, btw). You can go more general purpose
and less fast with things like the HPVel Grasshopper, or a bit sportier
(Challenge Fujin, Nazca Fuego etc.). You really can use the first set as
practical general purpose machines if you want: Dave Larrington commutes
on a Speedmachine, and the current model will take 4 panniers if you want;
my wife has toured with full camping luggage on a Fiero, and so on.

HTH, Pete.
--

Thanks for that. I am planning to visit DTek and you have givem me some
things to look at and think about.
One more question, USS or above seat steering? USS looks cooler to me. What
are the considerations?

Mike Sales

Mike Sales said:

One more question, USS or above seat steering? USS looks cooler to me. What
are the considerations?

ASS has better aero and it's easier to mount lamps, computers etc.
It's also easier to use standard shifters as USS is typically
"upside down" from the control's POV. An exception is bar end
shifters, which work superbly on USS, in fact better than on the
drops they were originally designed for.

USS is arguably more relaxed (but there's no weight on your upper
body with either) and at least in my case allows a rolling dismount
rather than stopping and extricating oneself from bike in two
different operations. Plus it looks cooler, as you say! ;-)

In practice I can work with either, but prefer USS. Many models
are available with a choice, so again trying out is your friend.

Another thing to consider if going ASS is tiller/hamster or
superman/scorpion type. I find the latter easier to use (never
quite mastered tillers and I find them a bit twitchy, but clearly
plenty of folk have no problems), but can interfere with knees on
some riders and on lower bikes can give you handlebars as part of
the view.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Mike Sales" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"OG" wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Mike Sales" wrote >> The shoulder pain which prevents me cycling has
now been diagnosed as

Quoted message said:

arthritis. If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a
recumbent may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied
brains of this group could give, as to which model.
I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would
like the possibility of guards and rack. Preferably not suspension, but
I appreciate that it is common on HPVs. I am a competent mechanic, so
building or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found
it twisty and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee
bend.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

Mike Sales

Are you taking glucosamine? I know several people who find it makes a
significant difference, particularly for shoulder/elbow pains. It can
take a few weeks to take effect - but it makes a big difference if it
works.

I tried it with no discernable result, then read Ben Goldacre's "Bad
Science" in the Guardian. He concludes that the studies show its no use
except in a minority of special cases.

Mike Sales

Fair enough, but I know several people who appear to be in that minority.

Mike Sales said:

The shoulder pain which prevents me cycling has now been diagnosed as
arthritis. If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a recumbent
may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied brains of this
group could give, as to which model.

Note that the shoulder is a very complex joint which can go wrong in a
great variety of ways, sometimes more than one of them at a time. Do
make sure that you've got a secure diagnosis rather than a "probably
arthritis at your age" kind of diagnosis. Some shoulder problems
respond very well to very specific therapies, but they have to be
identified correctly first.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Mike Sales said:

"OG" wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Mike Sales" wrote >> The shoulder pain which prevents me cycling has now
been diagnosed as

Quoted message said:

arthritis. If this is so it may well not improve. I think that a
recumbent may be the answer. I would appreciate any advice the varied
brains of this group could give, as to which model.
I strongly prefer bikes to trikes. Weight is important, but I would
like the possibility of guards and rack. Preferably not suspension, but I
appreciate that it is common on HPVs. I am a competent mechanic, so
building or rebuilding is no problem. I had a Kingcycle years ago, found
it twisty and had to tilt the seat back to accomodate my lack of knee
bend.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

Mike Sales

Are you taking glucosamine? I know several people who find it makes a
significant difference, particularly for shoulder/elbow pains. It can take
a few weeks to take effect - but it makes a big difference if it works.

I tried it with no discernable result, then read Ben Goldacre's "Bad
Science" in the Guardian. He concludes that the studies show its no use
except in a minority of special cases.

I seem to recall that one of the special cases was that you had to
actually exercise the affected joint while taking the stuff for it to
work. In other words it wasn't a magic pill, you had to do something
too, something which most sufferers don't. It's all too easy for large
epidemiological studies to miss something like that.

That does seem to fit with my own experience. I have a mildly
arthritic hip which makes me walk with a very slight limp unless I
concentrate on not doing so. If I simply take glucosamine it doesn't
do my hip any noticeable good. But if I take it and do a lot of
non-repetitive walking about it does seem to improve the hip by
increasing the distances I can cover without hurting the hip. Whereas
doing a lot of that kind of walking about without taking it ends up
hurting the hip and reducing the distances I can cover until I rest it
and let it recover.

By "non-repetitive" walking I mean walking in rough enough country
that a repetitive gait can't be sustained for long.

But the amount of time required for that kind of walking about is
enough that I can't claim to have subjected this to exhaustively
conclusive experiment, it's just a suspicion which seems to work well
enough to keep me buying the stuff.

You have to be careful not to confuse absence of evidence with
evidence of absence. That's all too easily done in these large
epidemiological studies because they often depend on a lot of
unexamined presumptions and small interestingly eccentric minorities
can get washed away in the flood of data.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter Clinch said:

Westcountry Recumbents (Hull), but they're
trikes only IIRC)

We are. We're also in Derbyshire these days :-)

Thanks for the mention. :-)

--
Carol
"The glassblower's cat is bompstable"
- Dorothy L. Sayers, _Clouds of Witness_

"Chris Malcolm" wrote
(in reference to glucosamine efficacy)

Quoted message said:

You have to be careful not to confuse absence of evidence with
evidence of absence. That's all too easily done in these large
epidemiological studies because they often depend on a lot of
unexamined presumptions and small interestingly eccentric minorities
can get washed away in the flood of data.

Well, it didn't seem to work for me, as I said, so I don't still take it.
Mike Sales

"Nigel Cliffe" wrote about DTek

Quoted message said:

Plan to be there for best part of a day, and possibly need to go back a
second time.

Kevin's huge range of the wierd, wonderful, sometimes sensible and
sometimes downright silly, will help you narrow down to what fits your
needs and riding style.

I'm already looking forward to it.
Mike Sales

"Peter Clinch" > ASS has better aero and it's easier to mount lamps,
computers etc.

Quoted message said:

It's also easier to use standard shifters as USS is typically "upside
down" from the control's POV. An exception is bar end shifters, which
work superbly on USS, in fact better than on the drops they were
originally designed for.

USS is arguably more relaxed (but there's no weight on your upper body
with either) and at least in my case allows a rolling dismount rather than
stopping and extricating oneself from bike in two different operations.
Plus it looks cooler, as you say! ;-)

In practice I can work with either, but prefer USS. Many models are
available with a choice, so again trying out is your friend.

Another thing to consider if going ASS is tiller/hamster or
superman/scorpion type. I find the latter easier to use (never quite
mastered tillers and I find them a bit twitchy, but clearly plenty of folk
have no problems), but can interfere with knees on some riders and on
lower bikes can give you handlebars as part of the view.

Thanks again, that is considered and comprehensive.

Mike Sales

"Chris Malcolm" wrote

Quoted message said:

Note that the shoulder is a very complex joint which can go wrong in a
great variety of ways, sometimes more than one of them at a time. Do
make sure that you've got a secure diagnosis rather than a "probably
arthritis at your age" kind of diagnosis. Some shoulder problems
respond very well to very specific therapies, but they have to be
identified correctly first.

When I wrote "now been diagnosed as arthritis" I meant that this is just the
latest diagnosis. I have had several and several therapies over several
years. Even if arthritis is a wrong diagnosis I still need to do something
in order to get pedalling. A recumbent seems promising.

Mike Sales