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Roadside carnage

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Cycling Equipment
Published
22 May 2007
Last activity
26 May 2007
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  1. Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    those are ribs.

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  2. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    So he would have been fine if only he was wearing a helmet?

  3. On Tue, 22 May 2007 04:02:17 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    So he would have been fine if only he was wearing a helmet?

    Dear Tom,

    If this victim had been wearing a bicycling helmet, it seems likely
    that no one would have even seen him, much less killed him.

    🙂

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    those are ribs.

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Last time I watched an eagle kill and eat a snake was near the Rogue
    River in a somewhat wild part of Oregon.

    I'm going to begin carrying my camera with me more often, but I do wish
    there was an easy way to combine bicycling and 8 x 10 format plates, not
    to mention the bellows, sufficiently sturdy tripod, etc.

    --
    Ted Bennett

  5. Quoted message said:

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    What am I supposed to click on?

    Quoted message said:


    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Rad!

    Greg

    --
    The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
    http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  6. Ted Bennett said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    those are ribs.

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Last time I watched an eagle kill and eat a snake was near the Rogue
    River in a somewhat wild part of Oregon.

    I'm going to begin carrying my camera with me more often, but I do wish
    there was an easy way to combine bicycling and 8 x 10 format plates, not
    to mention the bellows, sufficiently sturdy tripod, etc.

    I once saw redtailed hawk fly over with a garter snake in it's talons
    with a baby hawk flying wing.

    Greg

    --
    The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
    http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  7. Ted Bennett said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    those are ribs.

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Last time I watched an eagle kill and eat a snake was near the Rogue
    River in a somewhat wild part of Oregon.

    I'm going to begin carrying my camera with me more often, but I do wish
    there was an easy way to combine bicycling and 8 x 10 format plates, not
    to mention the bellows, sufficiently sturdy tripod, etc.

    Dear Ted,

    Here's an article whose title promises just what you want, "wheel"
    being the term back then for a bicycle:

    "Around the World with Wheel and Camera" by Frank G. Lenz

    Lenz's article begins with a picture showing how to combine bicycling
    and 8 x 10 format plates, not to mention the bellows, sufficiently
    sturdy tripod, etc.:

    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_21/outXXI03/outXXI03j.pdf

    "Outing" magazine 1892

    For some reason, I feel sympathy for Lenz's closing comment in that
    early installment in his adventures:

    "The 'pneumatic' tires had been only once actually punctured since
    leaving New York—-a distance of 2,628 miles—-and that happened in this
    wise: The cactus plants begin to get rather thick in the Dakotas and
    Montana bad lands to here. I had so much confidence in the 'pneumatic'
    tires that I recklessly ran over several plants near this city,
    thinking the needles were too brittle to puncture, but to my surprise
    they were as stiff as steel, and both wheels became flat in ten
    minutes. On examining the wheel the tire was full of needles, some
    broken off short, others having penetrated the inner tube: I found it
    necessary to carefully draw them all out before replacing with a new
    inner tube. On repairing the tubes afterward it was very difficult
    indeed to find the tiny holes made by these needles. I now ride very
    cautiously where the cactus grows."

    After Lenz crossed the Pacific, thieves in China added to his
    miserable bicycling problems in freezing weather by stealing his
    camera tripod, whose new-fangled light-weight wonder-material they
    probably mistook for silver:

    "The fifth day in the snow and ice I tried to hire other coolies, but
    all were anxious to stay indoors, so I continued on due west alone. By
    and by I neared a good-sized lake not on my map. The Chinese told me
    to go back to get around it. Back I went through the mud and slush,
    the matter freezing solid in my forks every half mile, compelling
    me to chisel it out with my screw driver. I reached the road inn
    again, and to my chagrin my aluminum tripod was missing. Some thief
    had stolen it while I was eating lunch during the day, no doubt
    mistaking it for silver."

    "Outing" magazine, 1894
    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_24/outXXIV02/outXXIV02k.pdf

    Alas, Lenz was murdered in the Middle East before finishing his world
    tour.

    Concerning snakes and bicycles, I've been dying to stick the following
    tid-bit in somewhere, and this is as good a place as any:

    "'Colorado.'— Send your name and address to Allen S. Williams, Room D,
    8th floor, 220 Broadway, N. Y. A society for herpetological study is
    in contemplation, and you will obtain all the necessary information
    from him. The second show is announced."

    "Outing" magazine, 1899
    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_35/outXXXV01/outXXXV01zg.pdf

    [It's not from my email--it's one of those enigmatic "Answers to
    Correspondents" beloved of turn-of-the-century magazine editors, who
    delighted in leaving their other readers to wonder not only what the
    hell "Colorado's" question was about snakes, but what the first and
    second show were about.]

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  8. On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:22:01 -0700, "G.T." <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    What am I supposed to click on?

    Quoted message said:


    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Rad!

    Greg

    Dear Greg,

    Er, Red!

    Racer and -tail hawk, that is.

    🙂

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  9. Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 22 May 2007 05:01:53 GMT, Ted Bennett

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    those are ribs.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Cheers,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Carl Fogel

    Quoted message said:

    Last time I watched an eagle kill and eat a snake was near the Rogue
    River in a somewhat wild part of Oregon.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm going to begin carrying my camera with me more often, but I do wish
    there was an easy way to combine bicycling and 8 x 10 format plates, not
    to mention the bellows, sufficiently sturdy tripod, etc.

    Dear Ted,

    Here's an article whose title promises just what you want, "wheel"
    being the term back then for a bicycle:

    "Around the World with Wheel and Camera" by Frank G. Lenz

    Lenz's article begins with a picture showing how to combine bicycling
    and 8 x 10 format plates, not to mention the bellows, sufficiently
    sturdy tripod, etc.:

    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_21/outXXI03/outXXI03...

    I'm not going to bother trying to read that until I figure out how to
    set the background color to white and other new and interesting things
    on this computer I have just found myself being able to use whenever I
    want (and in an air conditioned office too... oh dear, my cycling may
    suffer) but I did get a look at the cover photo and I'm curious ... it
    appears that his saddle isn't actually attached to the frame by a
    seatpost but rather by some sort of sproingy whoozawhatsis attaching
    it to the contents of the rack??

    -M

  10. "Marian" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

    Quoted message said:

    it appears that his saddle isn't actually attached to the frame by
    a seatpost but rather by some sort of sproingy whoozawhatsis
    attaching it to the contents of the rack??

    I think the apparent attachment to the rear luggage is just a trick of
    perspective. Lenz rode an Overman Victor Safety, as described in the account
    of his departure from Pittsburg:

    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_20/outXX05/outXX05a.pdf

    There's a small picture of the 1891 model here:

    http://www.ict.mic.ul.ie/websites/work/michelle_nichinneide/history.htm

    Lenz's seatpost is obviously different from that one, but is similar in
    general form to that of the Columbia Safety pictured below on the same page,
    or in more detail here:

    http://www.copakeauction.com/bicycles/2003-bicycles/035.jpg

    You can see the Victor's sprung fork in more detail on this older model:

    http://www.copakeauction.com/bicycles/2003-bicycles/040-2.jpg

    James Thomson

  11. Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Where were these taken? Do you know?

  12. catzz66 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Nice Photos, Carl!

    Quoted message said:

    Where were these taken? Do you know?

    Near Pueblo, CO. Your question is an invitation for a really long answer. 🙂

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

    Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
    and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
    get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
    circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
    novelist (1811-1896)

  13. dvt said:
    catzz66 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Nice Photos, Carl!

    Quoted message said:

    Where were these taken? Do you know?

    Near Pueblo, CO. Your question is an invitation for a really long
    answer. 🙂

    Heh. Looks like where I grew up, though, Land of Enchantment (NM).

  14. catzz66 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Where were these taken? Do you know?

    Dear C,

    Why, yes, I do!

    [I feel the hook, but I can't resist the troll . . .]

    The juniper and cottonwood country, up the Arkansas river. Prairie
    bluffs with mountain views up on top, cliffs and level shale terraces
    with junipers running down gullies in the middle, and cottonwood river
    scenery down below.

    Specifically, I took the picture at the top of the south end of the
    dam at Pueblo, Colorado, looking northeast across the Arkansas River
    toward Baculite Mesa. The river and its trees are mostly hidden in the
    picture, down in the valley.

    More specifically, here's my daily ride, which starts and ends at the
    tiny red tail on the right. The yellow arrow on the left shows the
    spot where the snake met its end and the direction of the view:

    http://i19.tinypic.com/4kynamo.jpg

    Here's a photo of the same grisly scene looking south toward the
    nearby bluffs.

    http://i14.tinypic.com/664vnfq.jpg

    Starting point for true map fiends:

    http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=13&X=164&Y=1323&W=3

    Go west one panel up the river. This is the view looking south up Rush
    Creek, on the south side of the Arkansas under "Denver" on the
    railroad line:

    http://i5.tinypic.com/4ly75z9.jpg

    The Greenhorn is the snowy mountain on the left, and the Snowslide is
    the snow streak on the right, the main landmarks on the Wet Mountains.

    Gratuitous pelican flying over reservoir, looking north from the south
    bluffs:

    http://i1.tinypic.com/4qoihb5.jpg

    In the picture above, the very faint blue hill on the very left is
    forty miles away, next to Colorado Springs, and climbs up to Pikes
    Peak.

    Here's a view of Pikes Peak across the dam, half a mile from snake
    scene:

    http://i6.tinypic.com/5xrawbr.jpg

    Better view of Pikes Peak, looking across prairie bluff and across
    Arkansas valley:

    http://i19.tinypic.com/4xvo7qv.jpg

    Ignoring distant mountains, here's a typical gully with three deer:

    http://i13.tinypic.com/4ou6fkg.jpg

    Same gully, lower down. The water is flowing toward the camera down
    the shallow rock terraces and vanishing into the fractured shale creek
    bed:

    http://i12.tinypic.com/6b3gh03.jpg

    River, bare cottonwoods, bluffs:

    http://i13.tinypic.com/4tqtzyx.jpg

    Other than that, it's pretty flat and featureless around here, except
    for occasional antelope herds and hawks flying off the fence like
    this:

    http://i15.tinypic.com/5x3gs21.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  15. Quoted message said:
    catzz66 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Where were these taken? Do you know?

    Dear C,

    Why, yes, I do!

    Believe it or not, mine was actually a serious question. Used to go
    camping west of Antonito in the summers 20 or so years ago and the
    terrain looked familiar. Thanks for the info.

  16. On 22 May 2007 00:15:16 -0700, Marian <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 22 May 2007 05:01:53 GMT, Ted Bennett

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    > Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Quoted message said:

    > I came upon this gory scene next to the no-shoulder two-lane road on
    > my daily ride and took pictures from different angles.

    Quoted message said:

    > The victim, a racer (red for speed) was not wearing a helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    > According to authorities, the assailant (it was obviously no
    > accident)is a naturalized immigrant from Jamaica, who fled the scene.

    Quoted message said:

    > The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was--yes,
    > those are ribs.

    Quoted message said:

    > Click on the lower right to view full size in Explorer.

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i3.tinypic.com/6hft9br.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i14.tinypic.com/6g2lso8.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i13.tinypic.com/61ju64l.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i13.tinypic.com/6f5kbr9.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i14.tinypic.com/4ub2qsi.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i18.tinypic.com/62fvi3r.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    >http://i17.tinypic.com/52nx1ef.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    > Cheers,

    Quoted message said:

    > Carl Fogel

    Quoted message said:

    Last time I watched an eagle kill and eat a snake was near the Rogue
    River in a somewhat wild part of Oregon.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm going to begin carrying my camera with me more often, but I do wish
    there was an easy way to combine bicycling and 8 x 10 format plates, not
    to mention the bellows, sufficiently sturdy tripod, etc.

    Dear Ted,

    Here's an article whose title promises just what you want, "wheel"
    being the term back then for a bicycle:

    "Around the World with Wheel and Camera" by Frank G. Lenz

    Lenz's article begins with a picture showing how to combine bicycling
    and 8 x 10 format plates, not to mention the bellows, sufficiently
    sturdy tripod, etc.:

    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_21/outXXI03/outXXI03...

    I'm not going to bother trying to read that until I figure out how to
    set the background color to white and other new and interesting things
    on this computer I have just found myself being able to use whenever I
    want (and in an air conditioned office too... oh dear, my cycling may
    suffer) but I did get a look at the cover photo and I'm curious ... it
    appears that his saddle isn't actually attached to the frame by a
    seatpost but rather by some sort of sproingy whoozawhatsis attaching
    it to the contents of the rack??

    -M

    Dear Marian,

    Odd spring-suspension seats were common back then because the roads
    were so rough. (Keep reading and you'll come to a detailed picture.)

    To get from New York to California, Lenz often rode on the railroad
    tracks--not beside them, but over the wooden railroad ties.

    Here's a picture of Lenz in India enlarged to show his front
    suspension and elaborate spring-seat:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/5ywikhu.jpg

    The picture is very fuzzy, but it's about as good as you'll get from
    that magazine--I took it from this installment of Lenz's tour:
    http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_26/outXXVI04/outXXVI04l.pdf

    Here's the same model that Lenz rode, somewhat dilapidated:

    http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle385.htm

    This picture shows the sproingy whoozawhatsis in all its glory:

    http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1673.htm

    Here's a similar seat on a hard-tire, no-front-suspension bike of the
    same era:

    http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com/Bike20a.html

    Here's another bike with a similar seat from the Smithsonian:

    http://americanhistory.si.edu/ONTHEMOVE/collection/object_293.html

    Note that the wheels are 31.25 inches rear and 30 inches front--the
    larger-than-modern wheels rolled a little more easily over the bumps.
    That's why the penny-farthing highwheelers were endurable--a 50-inch
    wheel smooths out some of the road shock of a solid tire.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  17. Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Odd spring-suspension seats were common back then because the roads
    were so rough. (Keep reading and you'll come to a detailed picture.)

    To get from New York to California, Lenz often rode on the railroad
    tracks--not beside them, but over the wooden railroad ties.

    It's always wondered me that today, when bikes are mainly
    playthings, sprung saddles seem tb the ultimate in un-cool.

    OTOH back when bicycles were really used day-in and day-out it
    seems like *everybody* rode on sprung saddles.
    --
    PeteCresswell

  18. "(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Odd spring-suspension seats were common back then because the roads
    were so rough. (Keep reading and you'll come to a detailed picture.)

    To get from New York to California, Lenz often rode on the railroad
    tracks--not beside them, but over the wooden railroad ties.

    It's always wondered me that today, when bikes are mainly
    playthings, sprung saddles seem tb the ultimate in un-cool.

    OTOH back when bicycles were really used day-in and day-out it
    seems like *everybody* rode on sprung saddles.

    The roads are generally smoother now. And there was only a relatively short
    period of time when mtn bikes didn't have a suspension.

    Greg
    --
    Ticketbastard tax tracker:
    http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

    Dethink to survive - Mclusky

  19. Quoted message said:

    Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Thanks for taking & posting them.

    Quoted message said:

    The shadow in the last picture shows how close the camera was...

    I'm surprised it let you get so close. How did it behave as you
    approached?

  20. catzz66 said:
    dvt said:

    catzz66 wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
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    > Caution: increasingly gruesome pictures.

    Quoted message said:

    Nice Photos, Carl!

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    Where were these taken? Do you know?

    Quoted message said:

    Near Pueblo, CO. Your question is an invitation for a really long
    answer. 🙂

    Heh. Looks like where I grew up, though, Land of Enchantment (NM).

    Same thing at that longitude.

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