Props for Joe

Burt said:

He's couragous

Hey Burt,
I think you're the guy whose blog I read a few days ago. I got the
link from a friend.
I'm new to this list and to cycling. My friends all said that I could
learn a ton from the folks here.

Here's my first question, Burt (and everyone else):
A guy just gave me a set of his used race wheels. They're in good
enough shape for little ol' me but they're tubulars. I've ridden on
regular tires since I got my bike a little over a year ago. I can
hang with all but a few fellas on the group rides.
So, I'm wondering...
Why are tubulars better than regular tires for racing???

10-Q,
2S.

Burt said:

He's couragous

Nothing particularly courageous about admitting to using dope after
you've already been busted for it, and nothing particularly courageous
about coming up with some sort of wholly unsubstantiated story about
how much testosterone helped you when 1) you admittedly were using so
many drugs that you couldn't possibly know which one was doing what,
and 2) what you're claiming the testosterone did for you is not
something the majority of the medical experts would tell you you
should expect it to do.

Of course, Papp knows better than the medical professionals and he
KNOWS the testosterone helped him. No, it couldn't have been any of
the myriad other drugs he was using or perhaps the placebo effect. Of
course not. It was the testosterone. Oh, of course, by testifying he
probably helped himself garner a bit of favor with USADA for some of
his own drug charges.

Right, he's courageous.

BS.

Fred

Quoted message said:

Burt said:

He's couragous

Nothing particularly courageous about admitting to using dope after
you've already been busted for it, and nothing particularly courageous
about coming up with some sort of wholly unsubstantiated story about
how much testosterone helped you when 1) you admittedly were using so
many drugs that you couldn't possibly know which one was doing what,
and 2) what you're claiming the testosterone did for you is not
something the majority of the medical experts would tell you you
should expect it to do.

Of course, Papp knows better than the medical professionals and he
KNOWS the testosterone helped him. No, it couldn't have been any of
the myriad other drugs he was using or perhaps the placebo effect. Of
course not. It was the testosterone. Oh, of course, by testifying he
probably helped himself garner a bit of favor with USADA for some of
his own drug charges.

Right, he's courageous.

BS.

Inclined to agree mostly, but:

How much formal research is done on drugs when used as PEDs? I mean,
it's not like you can randomize a group of pro football
players/cyclists/baseball players, give half of them the juice and half
a placebo, and then write up the results in JAMA, or is it? (That's a
serious question - what sort of research is there beyond athletes who've
tried things?)

I mean, sure you can professionally study EPO's effects on hematocrit,
or steroids' effects on injury recovery, but the effects of testosterone
gel on athletic performance in multi-day stage races?

While I don't give Papp's testimony much credence, I am curious how much
precise (and known to more than team doctors and Fuentes types) research
there is into this sort of thing. Anybody know?

Mark J.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Burt said:

He's couragous

Nothing particularly courageous about admitting to using dope after
you've already been busted for it, and nothing particularly courageous
about coming up with some sort of wholly unsubstantiated story about
how much testosterone helped you when 1) you admittedly were using so
many drugs that you couldn't possibly know which one was doing what,
and 2) what you're claiming the testosterone did for you is not
something the majority of the medical experts would tell you you
should expect it to do.

Of course, Papp knows better than the medical professionals and he
KNOWS the testosterone helped him. No, it couldn't have been any of
the myriad other drugs he was using or perhaps the placebo effect. Of
course not. It was the testosterone. Oh, of course, by testifying he
probably helped himself garner a bit of favor with USADA for some of
his own drug charges.

Right, he's courageous.

BS.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the courage of Joe Papp. I doubt he'd have
leapt to be part of this case if he hadn't already been busted. I think that Jerome
Chiotti showed a lot more courage for confessing (to using EPO) on his own.
Admittedly, it was a few years after the fact, but he hadn't been tested positive.

If Papp had kept quiet about the other things he'd used his anecdotal evidence
about testosterone might have carried a bit more weight in this hearing.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If Papp had kept quiet about the other things he'd used his anecdotal
evidence
about testosterone might have carried a bit more weight in this hearing.

Nice look into your morals and ethics there.

On 5/20/07 4:47 PM, in article
[email hidden],

Quoted post said:

Burt said:

He's couragous

Nothing particularly courageous about admitting to using dope after
you've already been busted for it, and nothing particularly courageous
about coming up with some sort of wholly unsubstantiated story about
how much testosterone helped you when 1) you admittedly were using so
many drugs that you couldn't possibly know which one was doing what,
and 2) what you're claiming the testosterone did for you is not
something the majority of the medical experts would tell you you
should expect it to do.

Of course, Papp knows better than the medical professionals and he
KNOWS the testosterone helped him. No, it couldn't have been any of
the myriad other drugs he was using or perhaps the placebo effect. Of
course not. It was the testosterone. Oh, of course, by testifying he
probably helped himself garner a bit of favor with USADA for some of
his own drug charges.

Right, he's courageous.

BS.

Fred

It probably has more to do with getting help and legal status for his wife..

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If Papp had kept quiet about the other things he'd used his anecdotal
evidence about testosterone might have carried a bit more weight in this hearing.

Nice look into your morals and ethics there.

Tom, I'm that he wouldn't have looked like so much of a moron after he testified.
his story was that he did testosterone and *that* gave him all kinds of good
recovery, etc. But since he did all those other things, how can he specifically state
that the testosterone did what he claimed? Nice look into your reading comprehension
skills.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

ST said:

It probably has more to do with getting help and legal status for his wife..

From the USADA? Ain't nothin' they can do about an immigration issue.

It probably has more to do with getting his suspension cut.

Bob Schwartz

Quoted message said:

Burt said:

He's couragous

Nothing particularly courageous about admitting to using dope after
you've already been busted for it, and nothing particularly courageous
about coming up with some sort of wholly unsubstantiated story about
how much testosterone helped you when 1) you admittedly were using so
many drugs that you couldn't possibly know which one was doing what,
and 2) what you're claiming the testosterone did for you is not
something the majority of the medical experts would tell you you
should expect it to do.

Of course, Papp knows better than the medical professionals and he
KNOWS the testosterone helped him. No, it couldn't have been any of
the myriad other drugs he was using or perhaps the placebo effect. Of
course not. It was the testosterone. Oh, of course, by testifying he
probably helped himself garner a bit of favor with USADA for some of
his own drug charges.

Right, he's courageous.

BS.

Fred

Just a follow-up, with info re: yesterday's testimony, as posted on
velonews.com:

"Amory also questioned testosterone's legitimacy as a performance-
enhancing drug for endurance athletes, saying that the kind of micro-
dosing pro cyclist Joe Papp described in earlier testimony might allow
an athlete to elude detection, but it wouldn't provide any noticeable
benefit.

"There's no evidence that testosterone plays a role in augmenting
endurance," Amory said, pointing to one scientific study that found
testosterone had no more benefit than a placebo and that it did not
aid in recovery."

BTW, Amory is on the USADA board that reviews cases to determine if
there's enough evidence to move forward. I'd say he's a tad more
credible than J. Pupp.

Fred