Looking for wheelbuilding dvice

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

mark

5: locktite

6: None of the above. Just built it.

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

mark

Don't use Tenacious oil on the threads - that will make it easier for
them to come undone when you hit a bump, and go out of true. I use
boiled linseed oil. I bought a $4 (pint?) can at the paint department
at Fred Meyer's. I've built dozens of wheels, and there has been no
discernable drop in the volume of oil in the can. I anticipate the can
outliving my wheelbuilding addiction.

As opposed to $20 for a 15 milliliter jar of Wheelsmith Spoke prep.

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

mark

Have you checked the google archives? There are dozens of discussions on
this issue. You're no more likely to get a consensus opinion now than in
any of those previous threads.

Personally, I would say use oil. I gather that those who use the
alternatives worry that very high spoke tensions will ruin their rims and
yet don't want to have their wheels go out of true when the spokes go
slack.

You might get a narrowing down of the disagreements if you tell us the rim
(make, model & size), the number of spokes, and your weight (plus weight
of cargo you want to carry on the bike).

Hank Wirtz said:

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

Quoted message said:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Quoted message said:

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

Quoted message said:

mark

Don't use Tenacious oil on the threads - that will make it easier for
them to come undone when you hit a bump, and go out of true. I use
boiled linseed oil. I bought a $4 (pint?) can at the paint department
at Fred Meyer's. I've built dozens of wheels, and there has been no
discernable drop in the volume of oil in the can. I anticipate the can
outliving my wheelbuilding addiction.

As opposed to $20 for a 15 milliliter jar of Wheelsmith Spoke prep.-

Geez, that must mean the Spoke Prep is *much* better than linseed oil,
right? ;-)

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with.

I just use light lubricant, such as chain lube. I don't think it's a
big deal, as long as you get tension right you just need something
that will lubricate the nipples.

Whatever you do, don't use loctite. LBS got a shipment of wheels last
year that had been built with red loctite and they are currently
replacing a whole lot of broken spokes as a result.

Regards,
Anthony

Quoted message said:

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

mark

5: locktite

Quite a few people on this group disagree with this idea, presumably
because the locktite doesn't lubricate the threads during the truing and
tensioning process, so the spokes can't be easily brought up to proper
tension.

Quoted message said:

6: None of the above. Just built it.

I tried this years ago and it didn't work. The lack of lubrication meant
that when I tried to get the spokes up to proper tension they either
wound up or the nipples rounded off in the spoke wrench.

Your recommendations cause me to wonder just how many wheels you've
built, and how well they've performed.

mark

Gary Young said:

Have you checked the google archives? There are dozens of discussions on
this issue. You're no more likely to get a consensus opinion now than in
any of those previous threads.

I have checked the archives, and I have followed a number of
wheelbuilding threads on this NG. I guess I'm looking for a final set of
conflicting opinions based on everybody's most recent experience and
thoughts on the matter. Some of the reasons behind those opinions might
be nice, too.If I wanted consensus I wouldn't be looking on USENET, would I?

Quoted message said:

Personally, I would say use oil. I gather that those who use the
alternatives worry that very high spoke tensions will ruin their rims and
yet don't want to have their wheels go out of true when the spokes go
slack.

It's my understanding that insufficient spoke tension can cause a number
of problems besides wheels going out of true when the spokes go slack.
Sounds like one point in favor of oil.

Quoted message said:

You might get a narrowing down of the disagreements if you tell us the rim
(make, model & size), the number of spokes, and your weight (plus weight
of cargo you want to carry on the bike).

26", Velocity Cliffhanger rim, 32 spokes laced 3x, double butted(14-15
gauge ) Wheelsmith spokes. I weigh 160 - 170 depending on how diligently
I've been working out. About once year I expect to do a tour with ~40
lbs of touring/camping/camera gear spread between 4 panniers, a
handlebar bag and a seat bag on a mix of paved, gravel and dirt roads. I
understand that 36 spokes is frequently recommended for loaded touring,
but I have toured on 26", 32 spoke wheels on similar roads in the past
with no trouble. I will probably run 26 x 1.3 - 1.5" tires most of the
time, and bump up to 26 x 1.75 for loaded touring.

mark

On May 18, 5:39 pm, mark <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

26", Velocity Cliffhanger rim, 32 spokes laced 3x, double butted(14-15
gauge ) Wheelsmith spokes. I weigh 160 - 170 depending on how diligently
I've been working out.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

mark

I think Tenacious Oil is fine. I've used it on the wheels I've built
for the past 15 years or so, and so far, so good. I haven't had a
spoke break due to tension (over or under) since I started building
according to Jobst's methods. the only downside of Tenacious Oil is
that it's very tough to clean off the rim once the wheel is built and
tensioned.

FWIW: I've got 50 pounds on you (220 to 230lbs., depending on the
season), have mostly 36-spoke rear wheels, commute with a fair load,
and ride a recumbent so I can't "unweight" the wheels. I usually wear
out rims before they need truing.

Jeff

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

Messy. Continues to weep out onto the spoke, nipple, and rim even
after initial cleaning with solvent. Collects dirt and can migrate
onto the brake track. The same goes for motor oil, which Jobst Brandt
recommends. I used to use oil, but now I am done with that. Feh.

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Works fine; not needed for the usual careful handbuild. If you are
using nice stiff rims, and if you are applying plenty of spoke
tension, you should not have spoke loosening problems that require
threadlocker. I don't use any, and I weigh as much as a good sized
tandem team.

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Don't bother. The stuff is mind-bogglingly expensive and does not
work better than...

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

....grease. Just use a good grease. It stays put, it endures for
later truing, it applies tidily to the spoke threads, and what else
could you want? I use Mobil 1 synthetic, but whatever you happen to
use for bearings would probably work just as well.

Chalo

Chalo said:

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

Messy. Continues to weep out onto the spoke, nipple, and rim even
after initial cleaning with solvent. Collects dirt and can migrate
onto the brake track. The same goes for motor oil, which Jobst Brandt
recommends. I used to use oil, but now I am done with that. Feh.

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Works fine; not needed for the usual careful handbuild. If you are
using nice stiff rims, and if you are applying plenty of spoke
tension, you should not have spoke loosening problems that require
threadlocker. I don't use any, and I weigh as much as a good sized
tandem team.

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Don't bother. The stuff is mind-bogglingly expensive and does not
work better than...

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

...grease. Just use a good grease. It stays put, it endures for
later truing, it applies tidily to the spoke threads, and what else
could you want? I use Mobil 1 synthetic, but whatever you happen to
use for bearings would probably work just as well.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Curse you!

Another clear, succinct, fun-to-read post.

Even worse, it makes me wonder why the hell I don't remember any
spoke-oilers suggesting grease.

Enviously,

Carl Fogel

Hank Wirtz said:

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

Quoted message said:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Quoted message said:

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

Quoted message said:

mark

Don't use Tenacious oil on the threads - that will make it easier for
them to come undone when you hit a bump, and go out of true. I use
boiled linseed oil. I bought a $4 (pint?) can at the paint department
at Fred Meyer's. I've built dozens of wheels, and there has been no
discernable drop in the volume of oil in the can. I anticipate the can
outliving my wheelbuilding addiction.

As opposed to $20 for a 15 milliliter jar of Wheelsmith Spoke prep.

Altho I use Boiled lindseed oil also, 'teacher' taught me this 22
years ago, tension keeps things tight. I have built with oil only and
if tensioned properly, they will stay tight and spokes won't come
loose. I have built a 'few' wheels myself.

Permatex anti seize lubricant

http://www.devcon.com/devconfamilyproduct.cfm?familyid=405&catid=74

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my options are:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the thick
green glop in a green bottle)

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

mark

I use chassis grease.

mark said:

Gary Young said:

Have you checked the google archives? There are dozens of discussions on
this issue. You're no more likely to get a consensus opinion now than in
any of those previous threads.

I have checked the archives, and I have followed a number of
wheelbuilding threads on this NG. I guess I'm looking for a final set of
conflicting opinions based on everybody's most recent experience and
thoughts on the matter. Some of the reasons behind those opinions might
be nice, too.If I wanted consensus I wouldn't be looking on USENET, would I?> Personally, I would say use oil. I gather that those who use the

Quoted message said:

alternatives worry that very high spoke tensions will ruin their rims and
yet don't want to have their wheels go out of true when the spokes go
slack.

It's my understanding that insufficient spoke tension can cause a number
of problems besides wheels going out of true when the spokes go slack.
Sounds like one point in favor of oil.

Quoted message said:

You might get a narrowing down of the disagreements if you tell us the rim
(make, model & size), the number of spokes, and your weight (plus weight
of cargo you want to carry on the bike).

26", Velocity Cliffhanger rim, 32 spokes laced 3x, double butted(14-15
gauge ) Wheelsmith spokes. I weigh 160 - 170 depending on how diligently
I've been working out. About once year I expect to do a tour with ~40
lbs of touring/camping/camera gear spread between 4 panniers, a
handlebar bag and a seat bag on a mix of paved, gravel and dirt roads. I
understand that 36 spokes is frequently recommended for loaded touring,
but I have toured on 26", 32 spoke wheels on similar roads in the past
with no trouble. I will probably run 26 x 1.3 - 1.5" tires most of the
time, and bump up to 26 x 1.75 for loaded touring.

mark

Those rims weight 580g each, which is pretty heavy, which means
they're probably really strong. I think you'll have to use grease or
oil to get the nipples tight enough for this manly rim. If you build
them right, you should be safely into that zone of high tension where
spokes don't loosen on their own.

-Vee

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with.

I use canola oil. The reason is that I like to build wheels while
watching TV, but my wife can't stand the smell of other oils I might
use. She'd probably be OK with the linseed oil, though. But linseed
oil does dry out and get very sticky, which might make it impossible to
true the wheel later if it should need it. I would not use locktite for
the same reason.

--

David L. Johnson

On May 20, 2:45 pm, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

mark said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator hub, new
rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a truing stand,
dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the question of what
to treat the spoke threads with.

I use canola oil. The reason is that I like to build wheels while
watching TV, but my wife can't stand the smell of other oils I might
use. She'd probably be OK with the linseed oil, though. But linseed
oil does dry out and get very sticky, which might make it impossible to
true the wheel later if it should need it.

IME of ~20 years using linseed oil, I have never had a problem truing
a wheel due to it's use. This includes wheels built with aluminium
nipples.

Quoted message said:

I would not use locktite for
the same reason.

Quoted message said:

Your recommendations cause me to wonder just how many wheels you've
built, and how well they've performed.

mark

Maybe 2,000 wheels over the past 35 years. Like 99% of all wheels
built, I've never used any spoke prep. Okay maybe twice ever. Can't
say I've ever known of any failures due to undertension.

PS, the Loctite was a joke to make fun of all you who worry about this
non-issue.

here's some real advice. Use some sort of lube if you are re-using
old dried, rusty and dirty spokes.

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator
hub, new rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a
truing stand, dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains
the question of what to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it,
my options are:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the
thick green glop in a green bottle)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Messy. Continues to weep out onto the spoke, nipple, and rim even
after initial cleaning with solvent. Collects dirt and can migrate
onto the brake track. The same goes for motor oil, which Jobst
Brandt recommends. I used to use oil, but now I am done with that.
Feh.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Works fine; not needed for the usual careful handbuild. If you are
using nice stiff rims, and if you are applying plenty of spoke
tension, you should not have spoke loosening problems that require
threadlocker. I don't use any, and I weigh as much as a good sized
tandem team.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't bother. The stuff is mind-bogglingly expensive and does not
work better than...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...grease. Just use a good grease. It stays put, it endures for
later truing, it applies tidily to the spoke threads, and what else
could you want? I use Mobil 1 synthetic, but whatever you happen
to use for bearings would probably work just as well.

Quoted message said:

Curse you!

Quoted message said:

Another clear, succinct, fun-to-read post.

Quoted message said:

Even worse, it makes me wonder why the hell I don't remember any
spoke-oilers suggesting grease.

Hold the phone. Grease is oil in a gelled matrix and seeps out as any
oil does. If you clean your wheel job with detergent and warm water
after building, using a brush, accumulation of oily road dust is as
good as gone. If you insist on clean shiny rims, you'll need to clean
the wheels anyway, once in awhile.

Jobst Brandt

Kenny Toasted said:

Quoted message said:

I'm about to build a new front wheel with the Schmidt generator
hub, new rim and new spokes that I recently acquired. I have a
truing stand, dishing tool, and spoke wrench, but there remains the
question of what to treat the spoke threads with. As I see it, my
options are:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Use the Phil Wood Tenacious Oil in my tool box (you know, the
thick green glop in a green bottle)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Run out and buy some linseed oil, boiled or otherwise

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Run out and buy some Wheelsmith Spoke Prep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Another option(s) that I don't know about yet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone care to comment on the relative merits of each option?

Quoted message said:

I use chassis grease.

If your spokes don't become loose in sue, they cannot unscrew. Build
tight wheels. If your rims won't support spoke tension, get some good
rims.

Just the same, a drop of oil on each spoke nipple-rims interface is
essential to make spokes tight without rounding the wrench flats.
That has nothing to do with keeping the wheel true other than enabling
achieving proper spoke tension.

Jobst Brandt