Dealing with doping- A modest proposal

Tom Grosman said:

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

Won't work.

Quoted message said:

31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to

Won't work either.

from Europe said:

Tom Grosman said:

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

Won't work.

Quoted message said:

31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to

Won't work either.

Ban them, fine them and humiliate them. There's no excuse for what
they've done and how much they've damanged the sport. There are so
many hardworking and honest people in this sport who's livelyhood has
been permanently damaged by simply bad and avoidable decision making.

They're cheating to make more money, or worse, a name for themselves.

paolo said:

They're cheating to make more money, or worse, a name for themselves.

They are cheating because that's the system.

from Europe said:

On May 7, 10:48 pm, "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Sorry for the short answer, Google Groups had blocked me because I'm a
spammer. A more complete answer:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

They have too much at stake to do that. Their reputation is more
important than their trophies. Will the team sponsors still pay their
salaries (well, some examples say yes: Millar, Virenque,...). Plus,
they fear that if they speak, all the other riders will turn their
back on them. See Manzano, Simeoni.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to

They are workers and as such they have rights. Some have already
appelled a doping ban on the grounds that they have the right to do
their job. I guess civil courts won't easily permit life bans.

Tom Grosman said:

And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

And the question is, who's going to start? These people are making their
living in the sport, and as usual, better work performance tends to mean
better pay. Bad performance can mean losing your job, which is a bit
tough after working hard for years to have it in the first place.

Assumptions:

1) The dope is available.
2) The dope works.
3) The dope can be used without being caught.
4) Sponsors want results from their teams, and thus the teams from their
riders.

As long as all four are true, as I believe is the case, I have a hard
time believing widespread doping could ever dissappear from professional
cycling. The current anti-doping strategy seems to be making assumption
3 untrue, but it seems like a futile race which is damaging to everybody
involved.

I'm sure this is also the case in many other professional sports. And
some of them have perhaps made a wise choice not carrying out testing at
all.

Antti

"paolo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
| On May 7, 12:53 pm, "Leo, from Europe" <[email hidden]> wrote:
| > On May 7, 10:48 pm, "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:
| >
| > > The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to
get
| > > them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty
for
| > > all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding,
you get
| > > to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to
give a
| > > complete and detailed confession.
| >
| > Won't work.
| >
| > > 31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open
to
| >
| > Won't work either.
|
| Ban them, fine them and humiliate them.

So how's that working out so far?

"Leo, from Europe" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
| On May 7, 10:53 pm, "Leo, from Europe" <[email hidden]> wrote:
| > On May 7, 10:48 pm, "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:
|
| Sorry for the short answer, Google Groups had blocked me because I'm a
| spammer. A more complete answer:
|
| > > The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to
get
| > > them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty
for
| > > all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding,
you get
| > > to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to
give a
| > > complete and detailed confession.
|
| They have too much at stake to do that. Their reputation is more
| important than their trophies. Will the team sponsors still pay their
| salaries (well, some examples say yes: Millar, Virenque,...). Plus,
| they fear that if they speak, all the other riders will turn their
| back on them. See Manzano, Simeoni.
|

Other than Armstrong, who is a special case, even the very best could admit
to EPO use and their reputation will not suffer too much (see Museeuw in
Belgium, or Virenque in France), especially if they did so before they were
caught, since other than Americans, everyone assumes cyclists who win dope
anyway. You have to HAVE a reputation before it can be ruined.

Manzano got his special treatment because he is alone in breaking the code
of omerta and puts others at risk by speaking out. If everyone had a "get
out of jail relatively free card", they would have to use it, especially if
they feared that someone else would implicate them when cashing in their own
get out of jail free card, and it may lead to them being stripped/banned for
life. Lets not forget that it was Manzano blowing the whistle that led to
Puerto that brought down Jan, Basso, Valverde (?) and who knows how many
others to come. Who wants to risk their career on the hope that nobody will
squeal on them?. It's the prisoner's dilemma. You need to change the
equation so that there is a better outcome for individuals who cooperate
than those who don't.

You've got a first class cycling career, money and trophies and you've got a
choice-
1) confess, keep your stuff, and "maybe" your reputation suffers, but not so
much as if you
2) keep shut, get found out, perhaps via one of the other riders, doctors,
directors who tok the deal, and you lose everything and can never race
again. How's THAT for your reputation?

"Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it.

Quoted message said:

If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before
Dec
31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to
all legal penalties.

Bad idea. After Dec 31.2007 you have even more reason to deny and hide.

What you really want is something like a 3 year ban if you're caught and
decrease it if you confess and continue to decrease the ban the more of your
buddies you turn in such that if you turn in enough people, it's like only a
6month ban or something. Of course you'd have to not leak A test results
(which aparently is not possible) and allow the rider to continue to race
while under investigation to catch more flys in the web. Think Rico - no one
dopes alone.

-Andy B.

"Andy B." <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
|
| "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| news:[email hidden]...
| > The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to
get
| > them to confess to it.
|
| > If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before
| > Dec
| > 31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open
to
| > all legal penalties.
|
| Bad idea. After Dec 31.2007 you have even more reason to deny and hide.
|
| What you really want is something like a 3 year ban if you're caught and
| decrease it if you confess and continue to decrease the ban the more of
your
| buddies you turn in such that if you turn in enough people, it's like only
a
| 6month ban or something. Of course you'd have to not leak A test results
| (which aparently is not possible) and allow the rider to continue to race
| while under investigation to catch more flys in the web. Think Rico - no
one
| dopes alone.
|
| -Andy B.
|

That's true, I used complete amnesty as an example because it was easier to
illustrate and I didn't want to get involved in a discussion of exactly how
much punishment is enough but not too much. But the principle of the
prisoner's dilemma remains the same. You have to make cooperation preferable
to silence and the key is to use fear of a longer sentence.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Grosman said:

The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before Dec
31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to
all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found to
be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than someone
who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)

With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented tests,
tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number will
come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel that
they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the press's
microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.

What do you get up to when nobody is watching? I offer you amnesty,
and I promise not to make fun of you.

It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

--
Michael Press

Tom Grosman said:

The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before Dec
31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to
all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found to
be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than someone
who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)

With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented tests,
tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number will
come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel that
they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the press's
microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.

-Tom

With that swiftian title, I thought you were going to recommend
feeding the offenders to the starving Irish; but the EU inspectors
probably would find them unfit for consumption by humans or livestock.

Tom Grosman said:

The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

Dumbass,

The reason doping continues to go on is because on an
individual level, the people who benefit from doping are
the winning directeur sportifs and team sponsors, and they
have no incentive to give it up as long as they don't get
caught, and they never get caught because they aren't
actually doping. The worst that can happen to the DSes
is that their teams fall apart and they lose their jobs, but
they can usually get new jobs eventually because lots of
people know that that is how the game is played.

Increasing the punishment of the riders does nothing.
They can always find more riders. Punishing the team
sponsors doesn't help much because who would sign
on as a sponsor if you could be punished. The problem
persists because of the climate of uncertainty (asymmetrical
information, no one knows what anyone else is using) and
the culture of DSes, coaches, doctors, and hangers-on
that support it.

Ben

Michael Press said:

It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

If quantities of people being exposed to LIVEDRUNK(tm) advertising is a
indicator of rbr success then doping stories are good for rbr. Ergo rbr
should sponsor doping. How about Fuentes Gynecology Clinic presented by
LIVEDRUNK/RBR or perhaps that isn't catchy enough.

Quoted message said:

The problem
persists because of the climate of uncertainty (asymmetrical
information, no one knows what anyone else is using) and
the culture of DSes, coaches, doctors, and hangers-on
that support it.

Fuentes charged quite a lot for his services (€41,000 to Basso in 2004, according to CyclingNews), and his cyclists, at least those whom have been publicly identified, have been generally quite successful (only well-paid athletes can afford these fees, so there is a degree of circularity, but still). This suggests only a substantial minority have their Fuentes program. Perhaps doping is far more pervasive, but obviously doping a la Fuentes is a strong competitive advantage, not a ticket to play the game.

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
| In article <[email hidden]>,
| "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:
|
| > The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively
agreeing
| > that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly
damaging
| > the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no
incentive
| > to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and
in
| > fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean,
they
| > also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope,
since
| > it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as
long as
| > a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be
seen as
| > being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The
whole
| > peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that
choice
| > for himself.
| >
| > The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to
get
| > them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty
for
| > all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you
get
| > to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give
a
| > complete and detailed confession.
| >
| > If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before
Dec
| > 31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open
to
| > all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found
to
| > be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than
someone
| > who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)
| >
| > With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented
tests,
| > tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
| > that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number
will
| > come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel
that
| > they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
| > part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the
press's
| > microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
| > stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.
|
| What do you get up to when nobody is watching? I offer you amnesty,
| and I promise not to make fun of you.
|

Riding a bike, for one thing.

| It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.
|
| --
| Michael Press

Whereas the clueless dumbasses will always be amongst us.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Michael Press said:

It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

If quantities of people being exposed to LIVEDRUNK(tm) advertising is a
indicator of rbr success then doping stories are good for rbr. Ergo rbr
should sponsor doping. How about Fuentes Gynecology Clinic presented by
LIVEDRUNK/RBR or perhaps that isn't catchy enough.

Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

You're going to take up coaching Jr. High football in the south?
Bill C

Bill C said:

Michael Press said:

Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

You're going to take up coaching Jr. High football in the south?

Ohio. We had guys doing steroids up there back in the early 70s.

Ron

Basso's "confession" goes to illustrate my point. As long as the penalties
for confessing are much greater than the advantages, it would be absolutely
stupid to think Basso would risk his Giro victory, GT podiums, and open
himself up to financial and legal liability by admitting to something that
can't be proven. Where's the incentive? To help clean up cycling? If he was
really concerned about doping in cycling he wouldn't have doped in the first
place.

BTW, The fact that Basso's idol was Claudio Chiappucci should have been a
clue.