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Meeting Floyd

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Road Cycling
Published
15 April 2007
Last activity
22 April 2007
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Mark Hickey
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  1. Last night was a blast.

    Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    attended the presentation.

    The venue was a fairly small one - only 60-70 people attending, which
    I can only attribute to lack of publicity. I spent a several hours
    last night sitting about 10 feet (3m) from Floyd and his doctor
    (Arnie Baker) and his PR guy Michael Henson.

    The presentation has changed a bit from what is on Floyd's "Fairness
    Fund" website, and according to Dr. Baker (a very confidence-inspiring
    speaker, BTW), they're only presenting "about 10%" of the problems
    with the testing that was done, since they've already seen the French
    lab trying to cover their tracks by releasing updated "original"
    documents that "fix" some of the glaring errors in the "original
    originals".

    Without going into a litany of details, there are SO many questions
    raised by Dr. Baker's examination of the evidence that I have no doubt
    at all that Floyd will prevail when the hearing occurs in mid-May.
    Essentially, there are clearly-documented problems with chain of
    custody, testing blindness, protocol, equipment malfunction, sample
    contamination beyond testable standards, standards definition, not to
    mention the common sense aspect of the fact that Floyd tested negative
    two days prior and two days after (and tested WELL under the limits
    for testosterone even after stage 17). Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    Floyd's presentation was alternatively informative, spontaneous, and
    humourous. He spent a good bit of the evening "talking racing" and
    the personal glimpse into the politics of the peleton was fascinating.
    He (and Dr. Baker) pointed out that although Floyd's stage 17
    performance was a very, very good one, the real reason he gained so
    much time was the infighting among teams in the peleton (each waiting
    for the other teams to do the heavy lifting). As amazing as it was,
    he really wasn't doing anything superhuman, but clearly something
    unexpectedly audacious. His superior descending skills didn't hurt
    either.

    For those of you in Dallas, Austin or Atlanta - he's coming your way
    soon - I suggest you do NOT miss the event. It's the best $35 I've
    spent in a long, long time (though I also broke down and bought a $25
    Floyd Fairness Fund T-shirt, which he autographed for me). There were
    other fund-raising efforts, including auctioning off a replica yellow
    jersey autographed by Floyd (which went for $3,300, so don't figure
    it's a cheap way to cover a stain on your wall). ;-) Floyd spent
    about half an hour signing autographs and was happy to pose for photos
    with anyone who wanted one (making forgetting my camera a very dumb
    thing to do).

    I'd recommend that anyone who's genuinely concerned with the fairness
    of the current drug testing processes should read the powerpoint
    presentation that Dr. Baker put together - it's a fairly big download,
    but fascinating reading (even without the good doctor's running
    commentary on the details). It can be found at:

    http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/resources/Wiki%20Denfense%20Slide.pdf

    There's also a webcast on Floyd's site that I haven't previewed, but
    suspect it contains the same information I saw last night.

    My prediction is that the WADA (World Anti Doping Agency) and the
    French lab that was involved will have to admit that there are FAR too
    many problems with the handling of the samples, the testing of the
    samples, and the results of the testing for the results to stand. I
    appreciate the work Floyd is doing to take on these powerful
    organizations (that are, BTW, doing everything in their power to keep
    the details from leaking out - funny since they seem to relish the
    opporutnity to leak details about certain riders' test results, even
    before the UCI officials hear about it). Dr. Baker has also compiled
    a number of documents that show the same lab was making errors on
    other (non-cycling) athletes at the same time that Floyd's sample was
    being tested (where the lab admits getting samples crossed or causing
    contamination that resulted in a false positives).

    Please support this effort - I think after you read the presentation
    you'll begin to understand what a travesty this whole thing has been.
    I look forward to the day when Floyd's name appears without an asterix
    in the record books.

    Go get 'em Floyd!

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  2. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...
    | Last night was a blast.
    |
    | Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    | and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    | (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    | jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    | attended the presentation.
    |
    | The venue was a fairly small one - only 60-70 people attending, which
    | I can only attribute to lack of publicity. I spent a several hours
    | last night sitting about 10 feet (3m) from Floyd and his doctor
    | (Arnie Baker) and his PR guy Michael Henson.
    |
    | The presentation has changed a bit from what is on Floyd's "Fairness
    | Fund" website, and according to Dr. Baker (a very confidence-inspiring
    | speaker, BTW), they're only presenting "about 10%" of the problems
    | with the testing that was done, since they've already seen the French
    | lab trying to cover their tracks by releasing updated "original"
    | documents that "fix" some of the glaring errors in the "original
    | originals".
    |
    | Without going into a litany of details, there are SO many questions
    | raised by Dr. Baker's examination of the evidence that I have no doubt
    | at all that Floyd will prevail when the hearing occurs in mid-May.
    | Essentially, there are clearly-documented problems with chain of
    | custody, testing blindness, protocol, equipment malfunction, sample
    | contamination beyond testable standards, standards definition, not to
    | mention the common sense aspect of the fact that Floyd tested negative
    | two days prior and two days after (and tested WELL under the limits
    | for testosterone even after stage 17). Dr. Baker explained the
    | science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    | there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    | testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    | "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    | around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.
    |
    | Floyd's presentation was alternatively informative, spontaneous, and
    | humourous. He spent a good bit of the evening "talking racing" and
    | the personal glimpse into the politics of the peleton was fascinating.
    | He (and Dr. Baker) pointed out that although Floyd's stage 17
    | performance was a very, very good one, the real reason he gained so
    | much time was the infighting among teams in the peleton (each waiting
    | for the other teams to do the heavy lifting). As amazing as it was,
    | he really wasn't doing anything superhuman, but clearly something
    | unexpectedly audacious. His superior descending skills didn't hurt
    | either.
    |
    | For those of you in Dallas, Austin or Atlanta - he's coming your way
    | soon - I suggest you do NOT miss the event. It's the best $35 I've
    | spent in a long, long time (though I also broke down and bought a $25
    | Floyd Fairness Fund T-shirt, which he autographed for me). There were
    | other fund-raising efforts, including auctioning off a replica yellow
    | jersey autographed by Floyd (which went for $3,300, so don't figure
    | it's a cheap way to cover a stain on your wall). ;-) Floyd spent
    | about half an hour signing autographs and was happy to pose for photos
    | with anyone who wanted one (making forgetting my camera a very dumb
    | thing to do).
    |
    | I'd recommend that anyone who's genuinely concerned with the fairness
    | of the current drug testing processes should read the powerpoint
    | presentation that Dr. Baker put together - it's a fairly big download,
    | but fascinating reading (even without the good doctor's running
    | commentary on the details). It can be found at:
    |
    |
    | http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/resources/Wiki%20Denfense%20Slide.pdf
    |
    | There's also a webcast on Floyd's site that I haven't previewed, but
    | suspect it contains the same information I saw last night.
    |
    | My prediction is that the WADA (World Anti Doping Agency) and the
    | French lab that was involved will have to admit that there are FAR too
    | many problems with the handling of the samples, the testing of the
    | samples, and the results of the testing for the results to stand. I
    | appreciate the work Floyd is doing to take on these powerful
    | organizations (that are, BTW, doing everything in their power to keep
    | the details from leaking out - funny since they seem to relish the
    | opporutnity to leak details about certain riders' test results, even
    | before the UCI officials hear about it). Dr. Baker has also compiled
    | a number of documents that show the same lab was making errors on
    | other (non-cycling) athletes at the same time that Floyd's sample was
    | being tested (where the lab admits getting samples crossed or causing
    | contamination that resulted in a false positives).
    |
    | Please support this effort - I think after you read the presentation
    | you'll begin to understand what a travesty this whole thing has been.
    | I look forward to the day when Floyd's name appears without an asterix
    | in the record books.
    |
    | Go get 'em Floyd!
    |
    | Mark Hickey

    When is he bringing his show here to Paris ? 🙂

  3. Mark Hickey said:

    Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    I wonder why he is looking at performance gain from something
    that riders take to enhance recovery?

    Bob Schwartz

  4. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Last night was a blast.

    Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    attended the presentation.

    The venue was a fairly small one - only 60-70 people attending, which
    I can only attribute to lack of publicity. I spent a several hours
    last night sitting about 10 feet (3m) from Floyd and his doctor
    (Arnie Baker) and his PR guy Michael Henson.

    The presentation has changed a bit from what is on Floyd's "Fairness
    Fund" website, and according to Dr. Baker (a very confidence-inspiring
    speaker, BTW), they're only presenting "about 10%" of the problems
    with the testing that was done, since they've already seen the French
    lab trying to cover their tracks by releasing updated "original"
    documents that "fix" some of the glaring errors in the "original
    originals".

    Without going into a litany of details, there are SO many questions
    raised by Dr. Baker's examination of the evidence that I have no doubt
    at all that Floyd will prevail when the hearing occurs in mid-May.
    Essentially, there are clearly-documented problems with chain of
    custody, testing blindness, protocol, equipment malfunction, sample
    contamination beyond testable standards, standards definition, not to
    mention the common sense aspect of the fact that Floyd tested negative
    two days prior and two days after (and tested WELL under the limits
    for testosterone even after stage 17). Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

  5. Bob Schwartz said:
    Mark Hickey said:

    Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    I wonder why he is looking at performance gain from something
    that riders take to enhance recovery?

    Bob Schwartz

    It's a classic case of obfuscation.

  6. Kyle Legate said:

    It's a classic case of obfuscation.

    http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2004/anonymous.c

  7. "Fred Fredburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich said:

    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    Floyd guilty no matter what.

    This bothers me.

    There is a protocol for handling "A" and "B" samples that this lab is
    apparently unable to follow. There is no protocol at all for
    handling "C" - "Z" samples. In particular, it seems likely that you could
    count on these samples being tested en mass. The same testers will be
    involved and the same mistakes in testing will likely be seen on all
    samples.

    You can't treat the science like it's some sort of magic genie in a lamp
    and
    expect reasonable results. At BEST, you provide Landis with additional
    fuel
    for claiming he was railroaded.

    Is there a process or isn't there? If there is, then follow it. If not,
    then
    quit pretending.

    The protocol for handling the B samples was - I THOUGHT - to put the sample
    out to ANOTHER lab for testing. The fact that the USAC wanted the same lab
    to test these samples is significant.

  8. On Apr 15, 6:29 pm, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Hickey said:

    Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    I wonder why he is looking at performance gain from something
    that riders take to enhance recovery?

    Bob Schwartz

    Speaking of enhancement and recovery,
    Mark posted about seeing Floyd in Phoenix two days ago.
    Yesterday, I happened to ride along the route of the
    Tucson Bicycle Classic circuit race after the course
    had been cleaned up (I didn't do the race). No
    kidding, just as the road started to go uphill, I
    looked over in the mesquite where litterbugs throw [censored]
    out of their cars, and there I saw clear as day an
    airplane-size bottle of Jack Daniels. And instantly
    I thought, "[censored], Floyd must have done the race today!
    I should have come out to watch."

    I checked the results though and he must have been
    using an assumed name. But remember, the next time
    you see a bottle of Jack Daniels on your favorite
    training route, you'll know Floyd was there. He's
    a Kilroy for our time.

    Ben
    fan of Floyd

  9. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

    It's the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) that wants the old B
    samples tested. Not USAC (USA Cycling).
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr12news2
    That's USADA, not USAC.

    Ben

  10. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can
    testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

    It's the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) that wants the old B
    samples tested. Not USAC (USA Cycling).
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr12news2
    That's USADA, not USAC.

    Who licensed Floyd again?

  11. Tom Grosman said:

    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...
    | Last night was a blast.
    |
    | Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    | and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    | (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    | jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    | attended the presentation.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    When is he bringing his show here to Paris ? 🙂

    Some time in May (though I don't think the French involved are all
    that anxious to see him). ;-)

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  12. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Last night was a blast.

    Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    attended the presentation.

    The venue was a fairly small one - only 60-70 people attending, which
    I can only attribute to lack of publicity. I spent a several hours
    last night sitting about 10 feet (3m) from Floyd and his doctor
    (Arnie Baker) and his PR guy Michael Henson.

    The presentation has changed a bit from what is on Floyd's "Fairness
    Fund" website, and according to Dr. Baker (a very confidence-inspiring
    speaker, BTW), they're only presenting "about 10%" of the problems
    with the testing that was done, since they've already seen the French
    lab trying to cover their tracks by releasing updated "original"
    documents that "fix" some of the glaring errors in the "original
    originals".

    Without going into a litany of details, there are SO many questions
    raised by Dr. Baker's examination of the evidence that I have no doubt
    at all that Floyd will prevail when the hearing occurs in mid-May.
    Essentially, there are clearly-documented problems with chain of
    custody, testing blindness, protocol, equipment malfunction, sample
    contamination beyond testable standards, standards definition, not to
    mention the common sense aspect of the fact that Floyd tested negative
    two days prior and two days after (and tested WELL under the limits
    for testosterone even after stage 17). Dr. Baker explained the
    science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.

    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

    What's REALLY sad is that the US taxpayer supports the whole thing. I
    get the impression that it probably started out with a limited number
    of people in the French lab "enhancing" results, and now the whole
    organization (the lab, WADA, etc.) is so deeply committed to NOT
    losing all credibility that they'll fight this tooth and nail til the
    bitter end. But I have NO doubt whatsoever that Floyd will prevail,
    and hopefully a new protocol, process and organization will result -
    one with proper controls, accountability, and inherent fairness.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  13. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Apr 15, 7:14 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mark, now the theUSACwants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can
    testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support ofUSAC.

    Quoted message said:

    It's the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) that wants the old B
    samples tested. NotUSAC(USA Cycling).
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr12news2
    That's USADA, notUSAC.

    Who licensed Floyd again?

    dumbass,

    a better response to ben would've been "oops, i was wrong".

  14. Quoted message said:

    dumbass,

    a better response to ben would've been "oops, i was wrong".

    Dumbass,

    That will never happen. Some elements of Kunich are
    random. Some are hard coded.

    Bob Schwartz

  15. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Apr 15, 7:14 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    > Mark, now the theUSACwants the French lab which is being questioned to
    > "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    > Floyd
    > guilty no matter what.

    Quoted message said:

    > Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and
    > telling
    > him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can
    > testify
    > that they witnessed anything.

    Quoted message said:

    > As of that time I stopped anything resembling support ofUSAC.

    Quoted message said:

    It's the USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) that wants the old B
    samples tested. NotUSAC(USA Cycling).
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr12news2
    That's USADA, notUSAC.

    Who licensed Floyd again?

    dumbass,

    a better response to ben would've been "oops, i was wrong".

    WHO IS THE LICENSING AGENT AGAIN? Or perhaps you're too stupid to understand
    how authority works?

  16. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:


    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can
    testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

    What's REALLY sad is that the US taxpayer supports the whole thing. I
    get the impression that it probably started out with a limited number
    of people in the French lab "enhancing" results, and now the whole
    organization (the lab, WADA, etc.) is so deeply committed to NOT
    losing all credibility that they'll fight this tooth and nail til the
    bitter end. But I have NO doubt whatsoever that Floyd will prevail,
    and hopefully a new protocol, process and organization will result -
    one with proper controls, accountability, and inherent fairness.

    I think that you've hit the nail right on the head and we're all looking at
    another Nifong prosecution with everyone trying to hide the real evidence in
    order to fulfill a preconceived notion.

    Check this out:

    "I am a retired scientist having worked for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab for
    nearly 35 years. ~
    I had another experience later when I was put in charge of a project to
    determine CFC transport rates from the surface to the upper atmosphere.

    Ozone destruction by halogen catalysis is well understood and is easily
    demonstrated in the laboratory. The observed depletion of the ozone layer at
    both of the poles was of considerable concern and it was theorized that CFC
    based refrigerants were at fault. (I am sure everyone remembers that one)
    Well, anyway, we put together a program using high altitude aircraft and
    balloons to measure the CFC particle population at various altitudes.
    Mathematical models based on assumed ozone catalytic destruction had been
    constructed that predicted the levels to expect at various altitudes so we
    set about to confirm the model. What we found was that in both the Northern
    and Southern hemispheres the CFC density was less than five percent of what
    the model demanded to assign a causal relationship between CFC's and ozone
    depletion. The measurements were repeated a number of times but we never
    came close to finding enough halogen compounds to satisfy the model. We had
    to conclude that CFC's were not a significant contributing factor to ozone
    depletion and that catalysis did not dominate the process. Some other
    mechanism was at work. These results were so disappointing to the sponsors
    of the project we were instructed not to publish our results."

    That last sentence tells us who is driving what in science these days.

    We are asked to believe in Global Warming by people who receive hundreds of
    millions of dollars in grant money (ALL taxpayer subsidized and no repayment
    necessary) and then they turn around and tell us that any scientist who
    accepts one dollar from the energy companies hasn't any credibility.

    This is the brave new world where people decide what results they want and
    only report what will substantiate their own positions.

    Now the political parties are all alike - going for their own power while
    the news media is no longer a news media but a propaganda filter for the
    moguls of media and their agendas. We are no longer told the news but given
    a bare sprinkling of suppositions and then told what to think about these
    things.

    And the pitty is that most people fall for it.

  17. Bob Schwartz said:

    Some are hard coded.

    That explains all the recent BJ references.

  18. Tom Kunich said:

    "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:


    Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned
    to "test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to
    find Floyd
    guilty no matter what.

    Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and
    telling him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no
    one can testify
    that they witnessed anything.

    As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.

    What's REALLY sad is that the US taxpayer supports the whole thing.
    I get the impression that it probably started out with a limited
    number of people in the French lab "enhancing" results, and now the
    whole organization (the lab, WADA, etc.) is so deeply committed to
    NOT losing all credibility that they'll fight this tooth and nail til
    the bitter end. But I have NO doubt whatsoever that Floyd will
    prevail, and hopefully a new protocol, process and organization will
    result - one with proper controls, accountability, and inherent
    fairness.

    I think that you've hit the nail right on the head and we're all
    looking at another Nifong prosecution with everyone trying to hide the
    real evidence in order to fulfill a preconceived notion.

    Check this out:

    "I am a retired scientist having worked for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab
    for nearly 35 years. ~
    I had another experience later when I was put in charge of a project
    to determine CFC transport rates from the surface to the upper
    atmosphere.

    Ozone destruction by halogen catalysis is well understood and is
    easily demonstrated in the laboratory. The observed depletion of the
    ozone layer at both of the poles was of considerable concern and it
    was theorized that CFC based refrigerants were at fault. (I am sure
    everyone remembers that one) Well, anyway, we put together a program
    using high altitude aircraft and balloons to measure the CFC particle
    population at various altitudes. Mathematical models based on assumed
    ozone catalytic destruction had been constructed that predicted the
    levels to expect at various altitudes so we set about to confirm the
    model. What we found was that in both the Northern and Southern
    hemispheres the CFC density was less than five percent of what the
    model demanded to assign a causal relationship between CFC's and ozone
    depletion. The measurements were repeated a number of times but we
    never came close to finding enough halogen compounds to satisfy the
    model. We had to conclude that CFC's were not a significant
    contributing factor to ozone depletion and that catalysis did not
    dominate the process. Some other mechanism was at work. These results
    were so disappointing to the sponsors of the project we were
    instructed not to publish our results."

    That last sentence tells us who is driving what in science these days.

    We are asked to believe in Global Warming by people who receive
    hundreds of millions of dollars in grant money (ALL taxpayer
    subsidized and no repayment necessary) and then they turn around and
    tell us that any scientist who accepts one dollar from the energy
    companies hasn't any credibility.

    This is the brave new world where people decide what results they want
    and only report what will substantiate their own positions.

    Now the political parties are all alike - going for their own power
    while the news media is no longer a news media but a propaganda filter
    for the moguls of media and their agendas. We are no longer told the
    news but given a bare sprinkling of suppositions and then told what to
    think about these things.

    Dear Chemically Challenged Human:

    That statement was made before they figured out it wasn't a gas-phase
    chemical process responsible for ozone depletion at high latitudes, but a
    surface-catalyzed process on ice, that works with much lower concentrations
    of CFCs in the gas phase. Or more likely, the guy who worked at JPL for 35
    years wasn't an atmospheric chemist and is completely ignorant of the
    difference between solid surface catalysis at low vapor pressure and gas-
    phase reactions. Susan Solomon got the national medal of science for this,
    it's pretty well understood and documented, even by right-wing idealogues.

    As an editorial aside, what the above statement demonstrates is precisely
    how science works. They observed the ozone hole, tried modeling the
    atmosphere using only gas-phase processes with the observed concentrations
    of CFCs and found there was a huge discrepency. So they went looking for
    what the problem was and low and behold, ice-surface photocatalysis
    involving CFCs was the culprit. Now the models incorporate that process
    and are quite happy to recreate ozone holes given the lower CFC
    concentrations. Of course, the bad news is that we now understand the
    impact of CFCs on ozone is much more sensitive to ozone concentrations so
    it will take that much longer for the hole to go away as the CFCs get out
    of the atmosphere. Oh well.

    Let me know if you need me to post a link to another interpretive dance for
    this to help you understand it. It's not really a subtle point, but I am
    willing to do my part to help.

    Final thing, could you provide a list of the agencies providing hundreds of
    millions of dollars per year specifically for climate related research?
    The entire budget for basic research at ONR is around 100 million per year
    and that is a big pot itself, I want to know where one several times that
    size is.

    I know what I said, but technically this isn't climate change.

    --
    Bill Asher

  19. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...
    | "Tom Grosman" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    |
    | >"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    | >[email hidden]...
    | >| Last night was a blast.
    | >|
    | >| Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    | >| and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    | >| (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    | >| jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    | >| attended the presentation.
    |
    | <snip>
    | >
    | >When is he bringing his show here to Paris ? 🙂
    |
    | Some time in May (though I don't think the French involved are all
    | that anxious to see him). ;-)
    |

    I was being sarcastic. Is he really coming to Paris to give the "show", or
    is it for some other reason, or were you just funnin' me?

  20. "Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...
    | "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
    |
    | >"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    | >news:[email hidden]...
    | >> Last night was a blast.
    | >>
    | >> Floyd Landis is in the process of touring the country raising money
    | >> and support in his effort to fight the doping charges that have
    | >> (termporarily...) stripped him of his '06 Tour de France yellow
    | >> jersey. Last night, he came to the Phoenix east valley, and I
    | >> attended the presentation.
    | >>
    | >> The venue was a fairly small one - only 60-70 people attending, which
    | >> I can only attribute to lack of publicity. I spent a several hours
    | >> last night sitting about 10 feet (3m) from Floyd and his doctor
    | >> (Arnie Baker) and his PR guy Michael Henson.
    | >>
    | >> The presentation has changed a bit from what is on Floyd's "Fairness
    | >> Fund" website, and according to Dr. Baker (a very confidence-inspiring
    | >> speaker, BTW), they're only presenting "about 10%" of the problems
    | >> with the testing that was done, since they've already seen the French
    | >> lab trying to cover their tracks by releasing updated "original"
    | >> documents that "fix" some of the glaring errors in the "original
    | >> originals".
    | >>
    | >> Without going into a litany of details, there are SO many questions
    | >> raised by Dr. Baker's examination of the evidence that I have no doubt
    | >> at all that Floyd will prevail when the hearing occurs in mid-May.
    | >> Essentially, there are clearly-documented problems with chain of
    | >> custody, testing blindness, protocol, equipment malfunction, sample
    | >> contamination beyond testable standards, standards definition, not to
    | >> mention the common sense aspect of the fact that Floyd tested negative
    | >> two days prior and two days after (and tested WELL under the limits
    | >> for testosterone even after stage 17). Dr. Baker explained the
    | >> science of testosterone, and how clinical studies have shown that
    | >> there is no measureable performance gain even with 10x the allowed
    | >> testosterone level present on that day's effort (that is, it's not a
    | >> "one day drug"😉. There's simply no reason anyone would WANT to play
    | >> around with epitestosterone on a given stage... nothing to be gained.
    | >
    | >Mark, now the the USAC wants the French lab which is being questioned to
    | >"test" all the old B samples that tells me that the intent is to find
    Floyd
    | >guilty no matter what.
    | >
    | >Imagine handing the man accused of trying to murder you a gun and telling
    | >him that everyone is going to look the other way so that no one can
    testify
    | >that they witnessed anything.
    | >
    | >As of that time I stopped anything resembling support of USAC.
    |
    | What's REALLY sad is that the US taxpayer supports the whole thing. I
    | get the impression that it probably started out with a limited number
    | of people in the French lab "enhancing" results, and now the whole
    | organization (the lab, WADA, etc.) is so deeply committed to NOT
    | losing all credibility that they'll fight this tooth and nail til the
    | bitter end. But I have NO doubt whatsoever that Floyd will prevail,
    | and hopefully a new protocol, process and organization will result -
    | one with proper controls, accountability, and inherent fairness.
    |

    IF Floyd was clean, then the results are due to incompetence (as Floyd is
    suggesting), not "enhancing" results. After that it's all CYA.

    "Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than
    even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less
    frequent occurrence." -Goethe

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