Electronic Shifting System

i reckon it will happen, as to when....thats another story. its the next logical step on from cables...or is IR that?? imagine no cables at all 🙂

campag will take the time to R & D it properly and wont release it until it works and works properly (i think they're still cautious after the totally screwed up MTB gruppo).

as to what shimano do, it will be good, it will work and us the consumer will benefit.
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I am sure it'll come, but I can't imagine it'll be more than a niche market item. And I am totally against the idea of putting batteries in everything we use. Bought any toys recently? It's damned hard to find anything that doesn't have batteries in them.

I can't wait to ride past a bling bling with dead batteries. 😄

sogood said:

I am sure it'll come, but I can't imagine it'll be more than a niche market item. And I am totally against the idea of putting batteries in everything we use. Bought any toys recently? It's damned hard to find anything that doesn't have batteries in them.

I can't wait to ride past a bling bling with dead batteries. 😄

A cycling traditionalist, but you use a Mac? Conflicting feedback, I'm confused.

I think your right though. Some thing thats worked so well, for so long, as cable operated gears, should only be ousted very slowly and a bit reluctantly in the market place.

I'm all for technological advances but still not sure with this one. I couldn't imagine the power requirements would be too dramatic and, without doing any calc's, you could probably keep the battery charged with a solar panel strapped somewhere. It's all starting to look a bit messy.

KellyT said:

A cycling traditionalist, but you use a Mac? Conflicting feedback, I'm confused.

I think your right though. Some thing thats worked so well, for so long, as cable operated gears, should only be ousted very slowly and a bit reluctantly in the market place.

Not a traditionalist but very practical. I can imagine how electrical shifting can be of benefit for sprinters and climbers where shift errors may be mimimized. But for the most of us, putting the bike on a charge overnight is just not really practical, unless there's a dynamo in there somewhere.

I can see how this system may have greater benefit in the longer term eg. Automatic shifting based on crank torque and other settings. But gosh, that's going to be a long way away and the system have to be rounder than round for it to take a significant market share.

I just found a Campy article (2005) where they reckon a battery charge will last a thousand shifts. Not bad really. The battery is similar to your mobile phone battery so based on the fact that everytime I need to make an important phone call, my mobile battery is always flat, I can only assume that when I go to make an important overtaking move on the bike, the same thing will happen.

Remember, we are in a luxury, fad-driven market.

Campagnolo and Shimano will sell as many of the high end electronic groups that they produce, whatever the price point.

Also remember that, at least in the case of Campagnolo, many of the 'spin-off' effects of the electronic shifting have been passed on to regular production - especially the carbon fiber, which Campagnolo began toying with seriously when they realised that they had to limit the weight increase of the electronics/batteries.

Didn't Mavic try this a few years ago. I seem to remember a team using it in the Tour.

Russ Reynolds said:

I just found a Campy article (2005) where they reckon a battery charge will last a thousand shifts.

So what does it do at 950 shifts? Does it give you some kind of warning when your juice is running low or does it suddenly just stop shifting? I'm thinking that 1,000 shifts is almost a negative. That's enough to last several rides so I can picture myself riding happily along, never bothering to change or recharge my batteries until suddenly one day, AAARGH.

My EE buddy tells me that sending a signal to tell the derailleur when to shift uses very little electrical power. Actually performing the shift is another thing.

Retro Grouch said:

So what does it do at 950 shifts? Does it give you some kind of warning when your juice is running low or does it suddenly just stop shifting? I'm thinking that 1,000 shifts is almost a negative. That's enough to last several rides so I can picture myself riding happily along, never bothering to change or recharge my batteries until suddenly one day, AAARGH.

My EE buddy tells me that sending a signal to tell the derailleur when to shift uses very little electrical power. Actually performing the shift is another thing.

Actually when I think about it 1,000 shifts wouldn't be much for me. Through a mixture of indecisevness, hilly terain locally and just not being that powerful a cyclist, I shift quite a bit. 1,000 wouldn't necessarily get that many miles in, for me.

Can't help thinking it's a supply searching for a demand. Though plenty of [censored] products have pulled off that formula, so I dare say it won't stop it selling.

There are a host of things to remember:

1. Solar power is great until you remember that it's not always sunny; flexible PV arrays are on the order of 10-15% efficient (ballpark); and it would take a fair bit of PV area to work well.

2. 1000 shifts in a 2005 Campy publication. That is given Campy's ideas/theories/working models then, as well as technology then. Battery technology is improving, and I'm sure that Campy's system efficiency is improving too.

3. Bluetooth or other wireless connectivity to derailleurs is unlikely given the effects of interference and low power on that connectivity.

4. Mavic's last electric system--Metronic--wasn't that bad, at least to some. I know a few people that are still using it.

5. Electronic systems could offer the benefit of automatic trim.

6. An electronic system will have to have a "get home" mode for when Murphy throw his law in your face.

7. There's always going to be development on something "better." That's the nature of manufacturing.

8. There's was a lot of worry as indexing was released and as integrated shifters were released. There's always resistance to change. If there weren't, how else would you explain Grant Peterson?

As for supply searching for demand....well, that's not really an argument. Everyone on a bicycle today is taking advantage of some development that wasn't absolutely essential to riding a bike. There was no demand for velcro before its inventor got the idea for it. There's nothing in economics that says that supply can't generate demand, and there's naught wrong with that happening. If we only got what we needed or what there was a demand(prior to its invention) for in cycling, there wouldn't be much of a cycling industry.

Personally, I've no interest in such a system. The efficiency of current systems is about as high as such things can get, and I like the mechanical feel. I also enjoy he lack of dependence on high tech. Sure, the battery in my power meter can take a [censored], but I can still ride without my power meter. I'm also just one customer, too, and I'm sure that there are quite a few folks who would want such a system. And who knows, it could turn out that such a system was great, earth-shattering, or whatever, and my mind could end up changing.

alienator said:

8. There's was a lot of worry as indexing was released and as integrated shifters were released. There's always resistance to change. If there weren't, how else would you explain Grant Peterson?

What? Dont' tell me you are not riding mustache bars like the rest of us. 😉

The whole drug thing is getting a bit boring. This technology could change the furure newspaper headlines. 15 years on and Robbie Mac's son gets summonds to the tribunal for tuning into Eric Z's son's shifter selectors fequency and changing him down as they sprint to the line.

Russ Reynolds said:

The whole drug thing is getting a bit boring. This technology could change the furure newspaper headlines. 15 years on and Robbie Mac's son gets summonds to the tribunal for tuning into Eric Z's son's shifter selectors fequency and changing him down as they sprint to the line.

Hah, Eric junior is still going to win though!

KellyT said:

Hah, Eric junior is still going to win though!

Anyone who outsprints Robbie is OK in my books.

sogood said:

Not a traditionalist but very practical. I can imagine how electrical shifting can be of benefit for sprinters and climbers where shift errors may be mimimized. But for the most of us, putting the bike on a charge overnight is just not really practical, unless there's a dynamo in there somewhere.

It's funny but back in the late 80's this was pretty much the exact argument (except the charging bit) that would be put for over indexing. Overnight it become ubiquitous. I can think of a lot of ways around the power issue, for example you might find they integrate the typical bike computer into the group, and it gives you a bar power indicator, just like a mobile. If it was to use a single NiMH AAA battery that could be charged within the unit, or replaced easily roadside with a standard AAA, you'd simply add an emergency battery to your saddle bag.

The advantages are going to be infinite trim on the front, button activation so no more arguments about who's got the best mechanism (Campag style paddle and button, Shimano lever and paddle and SRAM double tap). I'd think the buttons would be available from pretty much any hand position.

There's also lots of downside .. durability in the wet, it's surely going to make group price go north, servicability etc etc. Clearly it's not perfect, but it'll be interesting to see how it's approached by the major manufacturers over the next few years.

--brett

I'm sorry....I'm one of those old farts who doesn't like progress or technology per se.

What's the benefit of electronic shifting?. I don't think some of the examples mentioned really compare to this. In all cases (indexed shifting, integrated levers, etc) there was a visible, clear benefit arising from the technology. But this is hardly the case here. What will be the tagline under the marketing campaing? I can't think of any. Ahw welll....I'm sure there are lots of creative people out there to think about it.

[Gets on line to pre-order Dura-Ace Electronic Wireless integrated auto shifting...and the Dura-Ace indexed batteries]

The other issue is, mechanical bikes are green. With NiMH/Li-ion batteries, it would no longer be a green machine but become another one of those environmentally polluting electronic gadget that has life cycle measured in terms of months.

LeDomestique said:

What's the benefit of electronic shifting?. I don't think some of the examples mentioned really compare to this. In all cases (indexed shifting, integrated levers, etc) there was a visible, clear benefit arising from the technology. But this is hardly the case here. What will be the tagline under the marketing campaing? I can't think of any. Ahw welll....I'm sure there are lots of creative people out there to think about it.

In all cases a "visible, clear benefit?" Really? Then what was all the complaining about as indexing was introduced, eh? Perhaps it was because riders didn't know what benefits they'd be getting or how valuable said benefits would be......so how is that different than an electronic gruppo?

On the other hand, any "visible, clear benefit" from indexing is dubious at best: it's another layer of complexity and more parts; friction shifting is just as fast; friction shifting trims much easier.

Your argument might work for you, but it does not work in general.

As is frequently the case with new products or innovation, the benefits are not always evident to everyone.