electrolyte replacement

Bleve said:

DaveB wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the relevance of magnesium? I've always used Powerade because
I prefer the taste over some of the others but never looked that
closely at the contents.

Quoted message said:

It's part of a salt that's linked to cramps, or rather, the lack of it
is 🙂

I thought it was the lack of potassium that was linked to cramps?

Theo

quote='Theo Bekkers'Bleve said:

DaveB wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the relevance of magnesium? I've always used Powerade because
I prefer the taste over some of the others but never looked that
closely at the contents.

Quoted message said:

It's part of a salt that's linked to cramps, or rather, the lack of it
is 🙂

I thought it was the lack of potassium that was linked to cramps?

Theo[/QUOTE]
Lack or excess of either/both can be linked to problems with cramps, similarly calcium if i remember correctly.

Ash

a5hi5m said:

Lack or excess of either/both can be linked to problems with cramps, similarly calcium if i remember correctly.

Ash

Correct! Gold star for Ash 😄

a5hi5m said:

Theo Bekkers Wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought it was the lack of potassium that was linked to cramps?

Quoted message said:

Lack or excess of either/both can be linked to problems with cramps,
similarly calcium if i remember correctly.

A banana a day.......

Theo

a5hi5m said:

Theo Bekkers said:

Bleve said:

DaveB wrote:
> What's the relevance of magnesium? I've always used Powerade because
> I prefer the taste over some of the others but never looked that
> closely at the contents.
It's part of a salt that's linked to cramps, or rather, the lack of

it

Quoted message said:

is 🙂

I thought it was the lack of potassium that was linked to cramps?

Theo

Lack or excess of either/both can be linked to problems with cramps,
similarly calcium if i remember correctly.

I'd be more worried about arrythmias with the excess of potassium :p

Oh, you know, because it's inefficient! Would hate an irregular
heartbeat to affect performance!

Russ.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Theo Bekkers said:

Bleve said:

DaveB wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the relevance of magnesium? I've always used Powerade because
I prefer the taste over some of the others but never looked that
closely at the contents.

Quoted message said:

It's part of a salt that's linked to cramps, or rather, the lack of it
is 🙂

I thought it was the lack of potassium that was linked to cramps?

Lack of either can give your heart and skeletal muscle the twitch.
--

OzCableguy said:

Can anyone recommend a good electrolyte drink powder that I can mix up into
a biddon, is easy to get hold of, works, tastes ok and doesn't cost the
earth?

Almost all the studies and guidelines I have read on this topic agree
that the only mineral in sweat that might be important to replace is
sodium. Recent evidence, however, suggests that we don't need to replace
electrolytes during exercise. See

http://tinyurl.com/2gsvym

This paper suggests that we need only about 65 mmol of sodium (1.5 grams
of sodium, equivalent to about 4 grams of salt) of sodium per day.

See also www.saltmatters.org for very strong evidence supporting 50
mmol/day (about 1 gram of sodium or 3 grams of salt) as an upper limit
for sodium intake from all sources. Trevor Beard and others suggest that
most of us eat way too much salt, even if we don't cook with salt or put
salt on our food. We get much more salt than we need from processed
foods like bread. Too much salt causes health problems, mainly high
blood pressure, even in people who exercise a lot. See also
http://tinyurl.com/36cn5j.

www.saltmatters.org (see 'Safety issues'😉 suggests that we loose a lot
less (about 70 - 85% less) sodium in sweat if we eat a low salt diet.

My limited experience: Fow a few years I got headaches a few hours after
a moderate ride (30 - 60 km solo or in a group at about 27 - 30 km/hr ).
Headache is one of the symptoms of hyponatraemia (low blood sodium).
I started putting salt in my water bottle and the headaches seemed to
stop. I have been on a low salt diet for about 6 weeks now - no
additional salt in my water bottle and no post-ride headaches (so far).

I am interested to hear other cyclists' experience with post-ride headaches.

Martin

--
Removed z before replying by email.

"Harng Goh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've tried Staminade a few times, and always end up with the same
problem - it doesn't seem to mix properly. Maybe it's something to do
with my bottles, my shaking technique (is it up down up down, or up
down left right? Hey, sounds like a Tekken move) or how the water
comes out of the tap in my kitchen, but it always gets stuck in a big
lump at the bottom of the bottle. I then have to break up said big
lump and shake for 5 minutes until the little lumps finally dissolve.
I finished the tub and switched back to Gatorade. Figuring I might
have had a dodgy batch, I try the Staminade again with the same
result. What am I doing wrong??

I found if you put the powder in first or drop it in all at once you'll get
lumps but if you sprinkle it in and stir it works out fine.

--
www.ozcableguy.com
www.oztechnologies.com

quote='Martin'OzCableguy said:

Can anyone recommend a good electrolyte drink powder that I can mix up into
a biddon, is easy to get hold of, works, tastes ok and doesn't cost the
earth?

Almost all the studies and guidelines I have read on this topic agree
that the only mineral in sweat that might be important to replace is
sodium. Recent evidence, however, suggests that we don't need to replace
electrolytes during exercise. See

http://tinyurl.com/2gsvym

This paper suggests that we need only about 65 mmol of sodium (1.5 grams
of sodium, equivalent to about 4 grams of salt) of sodium per day.

See also www.saltmatters.org for very strong evidence supporting 50
mmol/day (about 1 gram of sodium or 3 grams of salt) as an upper limit
for sodium intake from all sources. Trevor Beard and others suggest that
most of us eat way too much salt, even if we don't cook with salt or put
salt on our food. We get much more salt than we need from processed
foods like bread. Too much salt causes health problems, mainly high
blood pressure, even in people who exercise a lot. See also
http://tinyurl.com/36cn5j.

www.saltmatters.org (see 'Safety issues'😉 suggests that we loose a lot
less (about 70 - 85% less) sodium in sweat if we eat a low salt diet.

My limited experience: Fow a few years I got headaches a few hours after
a moderate ride (30 - 60 km solo or in a group at about 27 - 30 km/hr ).
Headache is one of the symptoms of hyponatraemia (low blood sodium).
I started putting salt in my water bottle and the headaches seemed to
stop. I have been on a low salt diet for about 6 weeks now - no
additional salt in my water bottle and no post-ride headaches (so far).

I am interested to hear other cyclists' experience with post-ride headaches.

Martin

--
Removed z before replying by email.[/QUOTE]

you are saying that all electrolytes = sodium. The study you site ONLY refers to sodium. it does not discuss calcium, potassium, magnesium etc.

I'd like to see some of this research you allude to regarding "the only mineral in sweat that might be important to replace is sodium."

The conversation was about cramping, and using electrolytes (in general) to help with this issue.

warrwych said:

Martin said:

OzCableguy said:

Can anyone recommend a good electrolyte drink powder that I can
mix

up into

Quoted message said:

a biddon, is easy to get hold of, works, tastes ok and doesn't
cost

the

Quoted message said:

earth?

Almost all the studies and guidelines I have read on this topic
agree that the only mineral in sweat that might be important to
replace is sodium. Recent evidence, however, suggests that we don't
need to replace electrolytes during exercise. See

http://tinyurl.com/2gsvym

This paper suggests that we need only about 65 mmol of sodium (1.5
grams of sodium, equivalent to about 4 grams of salt) of sodium per
day.

See also www.saltmatters.org for very strong evidence supporting 50
mmol/day (about 1 gram of sodium or 3 grams of salt) as an upper
limit for sodium intake from all sources. Trevor Beard and others
suggest that most of us eat way too much salt, even if we don't
cook with salt or put salt on our food. We get much more salt than
we need from processed foods like bread. Too much salt causes
health problems, mainly high blood pressure, even in people who
exercise a lot. See also http://tinyurl.com/36cn5j.

www.saltmatters.org (see 'Safety issues'😉 suggests that we loose a
lot less (about 70 - 85% less) sodium in sweat if we eat a low salt
diet.

My limited experience: Fow a few years I got headaches a few hours
after a moderate ride (30 - 60 km solo or in a group at about 27 -
30 km/hr ). Headache is one of the symptoms of hyponatraemia (low
blood sodium). I started putting salt in my water bottle and the
headaches seemed to stop. I have been on a low salt diet for about
6 weeks now - no additional salt in my water bottle and no
post-ride headaches (so far).

I am interested to hear other cyclists' experience with post-ride
headaches.

Martin

-- Removed z before replying by email.

you are saying that all electrolytes = sodium. The study you site
ONLY refers to sodium. it does not discuss calcium, potassium,
magnesium etc.

I'd like to see some of this research you allude to regarding "the
only mineral in sweat that might be important to replace is sodium."

The conversation was about cramping, and using electrolytes (in
general) to help with this issue.

I did not say that all electrolytes = sodium. Body stores of sodium are
relatively small and sodium is the electrolyte that is secreted at
highest concentration in sweat. The body stores of potassium are
relativley large and potassium is secreted at lowew concentration in
sweat. So, if you are going to take any electrolyte replacement, sodium
is probably more important than potassium. I don't know about readily
available body stores of magnesium and calcium, but they are also
secreted at low concentrations in sweat.

Some recent evidence:

'Compared with sodium and chloride, the concentration
of other electrolytes in sweat is low. For example, the
average concentrations are: potassium, 5 mmol/L
(range 3-15 mmol/L); calcium, 1 mmol/L (range
0.3-2.0 mmol/L); and magnesium, 0.8 mmol/L
(range 0.2-1.5 mmol/L). Presently, there are no data
that make a compelling case for including these
electrolytes in fluids consumed during exercise
From the full text of:
Coyle (2004) Fluid and fuel intake during exercise
http://tinyurl.com/2utrln

'Sodium is the most important electrolyte in terms of
recovery after exercise. Without its replacement, water
retention is hampered. Potassium is also included in
sports drinks in concentrations similar to those in sweat.
Although there is strong evidence for the inclusion of
sodium, this is not the case with potassium. There is no
evidence for the inclusion of any other electrolytes.'
From the full text of:
SHIRREFFS et al 2004. Fluid and electrolyte needs for preparation and
recovery from training and competition
http://tinyurl.com/2msvhx

On cramp:

'exercise-associated muscle cramping in ironman triathletes is not
associated with a greater percent body mass loss or clinically
significant differences in serum electrolyte concentrations.'
From:
Sulzer et al 2005: Serum electrolytes in Ironman triathletes with
exercise- associated muscle cramping.
http://tinyurl.com/3643e6

There are many more studies of both electrolyte replacement and cramp,
although I don't think any have been done in people on low-salt diets. I
don't think the causes of cramp are properly understood. In any event,
Pubmed is a better source of reliable information than the advertising
of sports drink manufacturers. When you see an article that concludes
that sports drinks aid rehydration look to see if the authors were
funded by Gatorade etc. I suspect the sports drink manufacturers are
pulling the wool over our eyes and (very successfully) lightening our
wallets.

Martin

--
Removed z before replying by email.

Martin said:

warrwych said:

Martin Wrote:

I did not say that all electrolytes = sodium. Body stores of sodium are
relatively small and sodium is the electrolyte that is secreted at
highest concentration in sweat. The body stores of potassium are
relativley large and potassium is secreted at lowew concentration in
sweat.
[...]
'Compared with sodium and chloride, the concentration of other electrolytes
in sweat is low: [...] potassium, 5 mmol/L (range 3-15 mmol/L)

Another way to say it: most of your potassium sits in tissues, while the
amount in blood is tightly regulated to 3.5-5.0 mmol/L. Conversely,
most of sodium resides in the blood with a range 135-145 mmol/L (where
the normal level of Na+ & K+ in cells is close to the opposite of these
two figures).

So when you say that the normal range in sweat for potassium excretion
is 3-15mmol/L, with an average of 5mmol/L, then it made me wonder if
this was a case for replacement. But then I noticed that normal urine
levels of potassium tend to have wide variance, for most people based on
their intake.

In most likelihood you are right. I wonder if there are any direct
comparisons (sodium replacement vs full electrolyte replacements).

Russ.

Russ said:

Martin said:

warrwych said:

Martin Wrote:

I did not say that all electrolytes = sodium. Body stores of sodium
are relatively small and sodium is the electrolyte that is secreted at
highest concentration in sweat. The body stores of potassium are
relativley large and potassium is secreted at lowew concentration in
sweat. [...]
'Compared with sodium and chloride, the concentration of other
electrolytes
in sweat is low: [...] potassium, 5 mmol/L (range 3-15 mmol/L)

Another way to say it: most of your potassium sits in tissues, while the
amount in blood is tightly regulated to 3.5-5.0 mmol/L. Conversely,
most of sodium resides in the blood with a range 135-145 mmol/L (where
the normal level of Na+ & K+ in cells is close to the opposite of these
two figures).

So when you say that the normal range in sweat for potassium excretion
is 3-15mmol/L, with an average of 5mmol/L, then it made me wonder if
this was a case for replacement. But then I noticed that normal urine
levels of potassium tend to have wide variance, for most people based on
their intake.

In most likelihood you are right. I wonder if there are any direct
comparisons (sodium replacement vs full electrolyte replacements).

Russ.

A good way to start searching for this kind of information is to look
for papers by Tim Noakes (Noakes T or Noakes TD of the Sports Science
Institute of South Africa and author of "Lore of Running"😉. He is a
medical doctor and a runner and has been working in exercsie physiology
all his life. Energade is a listed 'commercial partner' of his
institute, but I have not seen any evidence that he is biased for or
against sports drinks. The 'related articles' link in Pubmed will help
to find other papers on electrolyte replacement.

--
Removed z before replying by email.

quote='Martin'warrwych said:

Martin said:

OzCableguy said:

Can anyone recommend a good electrolyte drink powder that I can
mix

up into

Quoted message said:

a biddon, is easy to get hold of, works, tastes ok and doesn't
cost

the

Quoted message said:

earth?

Almost all the studies and guidelines I have read on this topic
agree that the only mineral in sweat that might be important to
replace is sodium. Recent evidence, however, suggests that we don't
need to replace electrolytes during exercise. See

http://tinyurl.com/2gsvym

This paper suggests that we need only about 65 mmol of sodium (1.5
grams of sodium, equivalent to about 4 grams of salt) of sodium per
day.

See also www.saltmatters.org for very strong evidence supporting 50
mmol/day (about 1 gram of sodium or 3 grams of salt) as an upper
limit for sodium intake from all sources. Trevor Beard and others
suggest that most of us eat way too much salt, even if we don't
cook with salt or put salt on our food. We get much more salt than
we need from processed foods like bread. Too much salt causes
health problems, mainly high blood pressure, even in people who
exercise a lot. See also http://tinyurl.com/36cn5j.

www.saltmatters.org (see 'Safety issues'😉 suggests that we loose a
lot less (about 70 - 85% less) sodium in sweat if we eat a low salt
diet.

My limited experience: Fow a few years I got headaches a few hours
after a moderate ride (30 - 60 km solo or in a group at about 27 -
30 km/hr ). Headache is one of the symptoms of hyponatraemia (low
blood sodium). I started putting salt in my water bottle and the
headaches seemed to stop. I have been on a low salt diet for about
6 weeks now - no additional salt in my water bottle and no
post-ride headaches (so far).

I am interested to hear other cyclists' experience with post-ride
headaches.

Martin

-- Removed z before replying by email.

you are saying that all electrolytes = sodium. The study you site
ONLY refers to sodium. it does not discuss calcium, potassium,
magnesium etc.

I'd like to see some of this research you allude to regarding "the
only mineral in sweat that might be important to replace is sodium."

The conversation was about cramping, and using electrolytes (in
general) to help with this issue.

I did not say that all electrolytes = sodium. Body stores of sodium are
relatively small and sodium is the electrolyte that is secreted at
highest concentration in sweat. The body stores of potassium are
relativley large and potassium is secreted at lowew concentration in
sweat. So, if you are going to take any electrolyte replacement, sodium
is probably more important than potassium. I don't know about readily
available body stores of magnesium and calcium, but they are also
secreted at low concentrations in sweat.

Some recent evidence:

'Compared with sodium and chloride, the concentration
of other electrolytes in sweat is low. For example, the
average concentrations are: potassium, 5 mmol/L
(range 3-15 mmol/L); calcium, 1 mmol/L (range
0.3-2.0 mmol/L); and magnesium, 0.8 mmol/L
(range 0.2-1.5 mmol/L). Presently, there are no data
that make a compelling case for including these
electrolytes in fluids consumed during exercise
From the full text of:
Coyle (2004) Fluid and fuel intake during exercise
http://tinyurl.com/2utrln

'Sodium is the most important electrolyte in terms of
recovery after exercise. Without its replacement, water
retention is hampered. Potassium is also included in
sports drinks in concentrations similar to those in sweat.
Although there is strong evidence for the inclusion of
sodium, this is not the case with potassium. There is no
evidence for the inclusion of any other electrolytes.'
From the full text of:
SHIRREFFS et al 2004. Fluid and electrolyte needs for preparation and
recovery from training and competition
http://tinyurl.com/2msvhx

On cramp:

'exercise-associated muscle cramping in ironman triathletes is not
associated with a greater percent body mass loss or clinically
significant differences in serum electrolyte concentrations.'
From:
Sulzer et al 2005: Serum electrolytes in Ironman triathletes with
exercise- associated muscle cramping.
http://tinyurl.com/3643e6

There are many more studies of both electrolyte replacement and cramp,
although I don't think any have been done in people on low-salt diets. I
don't think the causes of cramp are properly understood. In any event,
Pubmed is a better source of reliable information than the advertising
of sports drink manufacturers. When you see an article that concludes
that sports drinks aid rehydration look to see if the authors were
funded by Gatorade etc. I suspect the sports drink manufacturers are
pulling the wool over our eyes and (very successfully) lightening our
wallets.

Martin

--
Removed z before replying by email.[/QUOTE]

When you say "Recent evidence, however, suggests that we don't
need to replace electrolytes during exercise." then immediately refer to a research paper investigating sodium requirements in ironman events, then it reads as though you are saying all electrolytes = sodium, and are making sweeping statements, that are not directly supported by the evidence you provide, which are kinda related but not quite.

I don't disagree with your qualifying post. However, sports drinks (not just talking gatorade, powerade, staminade here) are not just for "sweat" recovery, and it's important to note that for proper muscle functioning under load, various minerals are required for muscles to fire properly, including calcium, potassium etc. If you lose some of minerals via sweat, as well as normal physiological processes during exercise, they need to be replaced. Usually cramping is not "caused" by sweating, which is a byproduct of exercise. Cramping may be caused (and yes, it's not fully known what causes cramping, why it happens, what remedies it for everyone) by mineral imbalances, amongst others things.