what's a power meter worth

Quoted message said:

How cheap would a bicycle power meter have to become befor you bought
one. I don't thing i would by one unless there is one below 100 bucks.
Is there anything like this in development this cheap

I seriously doubt it since the level of accuracy required in the
mesurment device (Tourque tube etc) would prolly be too low to be
really useful not to mention the electronics. Most decent HR monitors
are still in to 50+ range so doubt we will be seeing powermeters in
the 100 dollar or even 200 dollar range soon.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How cheap would a bicycle power meter have to become befor you bought
one. I don't thing i would by one unless there is one below 100 bucks.
Is there anything like this in development this cheap

I could rationalize spending ~$250-$350.... But it would have to produce
accurate, reliable data for outdoor and indoor riding conditions and be
light weight.

jb

Quoted message said:

How cheap would a bicycle power meter have to become befor you bought
one. I don't thing i would by one unless there is one below 100 bucks.
Is there anything like this in development this cheap

In the context of the foregoing discussion of LEW wheels, when it's
the cheapest way to improve performance.

On its own, a power meter is a nice toy, but it doesn't do anything
useful until you have two things to compare, whether they're different
wheels, a different position, a different training regime or a
different diet. The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals. As such, they're already
cheap enough; buying an SRM and hiring a velodrome is a cheaper way to
optimise TT position and equipment than the equivalent wind tunnel and
ergocycle experiments

For the rest of us, that means a power meter has to come out of the
toys budget, and the question becomes one not of simple economics but
of personal taste. SRM or big plasma screen? Some will have the
choice, some will have so much money they can have both, and some
wouldn't consider either because they're out of their fun money
league.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
powermeters to improve their training.

--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
powermeters to improve their training.

The idea of what improved training constitutes is an interesting one.
Since the purpose of training is to achieve results, I'm assuming this
improved training was reflected in improved race results.

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

For example, I'm prepared to bet that a lot of people who got a new
Garmin Edge 205/305 suddenly started doing longer rides over more
challenging terrain. The GPS was manifestly not providing any direct
training benefit by virtue of its inherent functionality, but having a
new toy to play with made them enthusiastic about doing training they
might otherwise have not done

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:15:47 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
powermeters to improve their training.

The idea of what improved training constitutes is an interesting one.
Since the purpose of training is to achieve results, I'm assuming this
improved training was reflected in improved race results.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

I'm interested in how you can live your life and make any decisions
without dealing with the powerful placebo effect.

Can you make any decisions w/o double-blind studies?
--
JT
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

I'm interested in how you can live your life and make any decisions
without dealing with the powerful placebo effect.

Can you make any decisions w/o double-blind studies?

Every kid touches a hot object, gets burned, and stops touching hot objects. He doesn't demand a double-blind study confirming a correct interpretation of the
causality....

Dismissing lessons on the basis of a lack of double-blind experimental protocol is an excuse to avoid critical assessment.

Isn't it obvious: anything you do with a power meter can be done without one. It's just harder and less precise.

Dan

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:15:47 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
>comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
>meters are really only for professionals.

I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
powermeters to improve their training.

The idea of what improved training constitutes is an interesting one.
Since the purpose of training is to achieve results, I'm assuming this
improved training was reflected in improved race results.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

I'm interested in how you can live your life and make any decisions
without dealing with the powerful placebo effect.

Can you make any decisions w/o double-blind studies?

Of course; I was powerfully influenced by the colour scheme when I
bought my latest frame, but I'm not the one making claims about its
effectiveness

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:55:10 GMT, Dan Connelly

d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

anything you do with a power meter can be
done without one. It's just harder and less precise.

Right on.

--
JT
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On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:01:55 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:15:47 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:56:23 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>
>wrote:
>
>>The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
>>comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
>>meters are really only for professionals.
>
>I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
>powermeters to improve their training.

The idea of what improved training constitutes is an interesting one.
Since the purpose of training is to achieve results, I'm assuming this
improved training was reflected in improved race results.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

I'm interested in how you can live your life and make any decisions
without dealing with the powerful placebo effect.

Can you make any decisions w/o double-blind studies?

Of course; I was powerfully influenced by the colour scheme when I
bought my latest frame, but I'm not the one making claims about its
effectiveness

Do you ever make claims about anything's effectiveness w/o a
controlled study?

--
JT
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Kinky Cowboy said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:56:23 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:33:35 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

Quoted message said:

I know quite a few people who race as a hobby that have used
powermeters to improve their training.

The idea of what improved training constitutes is an interesting one.
Since the purpose of training is to achieve results, I'm assuming this
improved training was reflected in improved race results.

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

Does it matter? If the goal is to get better results,
and better results follow the purchase of the powermeter,
it's not clear that it matters to them whether it worked by
improving their training metrics or just by acting as
an expensive motivator. It would matter to me if I thought
that I was only influenced by scientific metrics and
immune to expensive motivational toys, but if I thought
that, I'd probably be naive. (However, I am cheap, so I
don't have a powermeter.)

I've been fairly convinced by various people including
Andrew Coggan on rbr that a powermeter will do many of
the things that people try to do with HRMs, but better
(I mean things like evaluating training stress). I
don't care enough to spend the money, although I
have done some power tests by timing climbs up hills.

Ben

Quoted message said:

For example, I'm prepared to bet that a lot of people who got a new
Garmin Edge 205/305 suddenly started doing longer rides over more
challenging terrain. The GPS was manifestly not providing any direct
training benefit by virtue of its inherent functionality, but having a
new toy to play with made them enthusiastic about doing training they
might otherwise have not done

[email hidden] wrote:
=

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

Does it matter? If the goal is to get better results,
and better results follow the purchase of the powermeter,
it's not clear that it matters to them whether it worked by
improving their training metrics or just by acting as
an expensive motivator.

It does matter, as if one recognizes it operates as a motivator, one can look elsewhere for the same motivation.

It's a feedback tool, providing insight into fitness and training: a relatively level metric which no longer requires doing timed repeats of the same hill or
time trial course. It seems likely that having a measure of effort helps guide that effort.

Dan

Kinky Cowboy said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

That hasn't been my experience. Meaningful comparisons are quite a bit
easier to do with a power meter than with a stop watch, a speedometer, or a
HRM.

Quoted message said:

I'm also quite interested in how they might have isolated the effect
of using a power meter from the powerful placebo effect of any large
investment in new equipment in improving motivation to train.

In my case, total training hours have decreased but performance has
increased.

Kinky Cowboy said:

On its own, a power meter is a nice toy, but it doesn't do anything
useful until you have two things to compare, whether they're different
wheels, a different position, a different training regime or a
different diet.

Most people don't buy power meters to optimize equipment or riding
position, or to measure their level of fitness. Usually the point is to
move from HR-based training to power-based training. Of course it's a
nice toy too - the reason why I'm seriously thinking about getting one...

Quoted message said:

The level of commitment required to perform meaningful
comparisons is so far ahead of what most of us can do that power
meters are really only for professionals.

See above. I don't see a $1000 PowerTap as a silly investment at all for
somebody who trains a lot. Many, if not most people who ride "seriously"
invest several thousand dollars a year to bikes and equipment anyway.

Antti

Antti Salonen said:

See above. I don't see a $1000 PowerTap as a silly investment at all for
somebody who trains a lot. Many, if not most people who ride "seriously"
invest several thousand dollars a year to bikes and equipment anyway.

If my time is worth, on the margin, $25/hour, then if I amortize a $1.5k investment over 3 years, and if I train 44 weeks per year, then the break even point is
it reduces the time required to attain a given quality of training by approximately 27.5 minutes per week.

Dan

Quoted message said:

How cheap would a bicycle power meter have to become befor you bought
one. I don't thing i would by one unless there is one below 100 bucks.
Is there anything like this in development this cheap

Probably less than the current $1250 for a built up PowerTap SL wheel
which accepts Campagnolo cassettes. The iBike Pro thing that guesses
at everything and does not measure power directly is $350 before
coupon codes at Performance. But it guesses at everything and does
not measure power to the drivetrain through the crankarms(SRM), bottom
bracket(Ergomo) or rear wheel/hub(PoerTap). So the cheap power meter
guesser isn't worth anything.

If your goal is to become faster and to do it in the fewest hours,
then a power meter would be useful. By itself it does nothing. You
have to use its output to ride at a certain intensity level to gain
speed in the fewest hours of riding. If you train 12 hours a week for
instance. If you just ride at a medium wattage output for 9 of those
hours and at a sort of high wattage output for 3 hours, you are
probably not maximizing the gain from the hours you spend on the
bike. The 3 hours are really the only ones making you stronger by
stressing you above your current level. The 9 hours are just riding
around basically. Too hard to be recovery, too easy to gain
improvement. Wasted time for training purposes. A power meter would
tell you this information. You could use the data to ride intensely
for 5 hours and spend 5 hours at a recovery pace. Fewer hours total
and more improvement because you are following a plan, not just
guessing and riding around as you feel like it. 5 hard hours gain
speed, 5 recovery hours allow the body to recuperate from the hard
hours. No medium hours that do nothing for you.

Nothing wrong with just riding around. Its very enjoyable. But just
riding around does not get your speed or endurance up because you
rarely stress yourself beyond your current levels. A power meter
allows you to follow a plan you want to follow to improve speed,
endurance, etc.

Kinky Cowboy said:

I see a lot of hype about using power meters for training, and it
nearly all comes from people with a material interest in the market.

Hmmm. I don't have a material interest in the market.

Quoted message said:

They are very keen to point out that HR is an inexact proxy for
exertion intensity. They would say that, wouldn't they; they want to
sell $1000+ power meters to people who might otherwise use $100 HRMs.

I know coaches who don't sell power meters who like working with clients who
use them.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:19:09 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I see a lot of hype about using power meters for training, and it
nearly all comes from people with a material interest in the market.

Do you race or coach people who race or are interested in improving
atheletic performance?

Just because something is oversold to people who don't need it's
benefits does not mean that it's benefits do not exist.

--
JT
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Quoted message said:

How cheap would a bicycle power meter have to become befor you bought
one. I don't thing i would by one unless there is one below 100 bucks.
Is there anything like this in development this cheap

The cheapest I've seen is the one I have (a Polar Power Sensor), with
a new model just out, you should be able to buy the old one for ever
decreasing prices. I bought one used off eBay for about $160USD. I
was lucky enough to already have a Polar s702i to plug it into. You
can see some things I've done with it here 0> http://www.lbrc.org/blog

It isn't perfect, but it's a reasonable introduction to power meters.
The best thing I've found is being able to easily compare different
rides or seasons - esp. when using CyclingPeak WKO+ software.

R.