Difference between 105 and Ultegra

Marian said:

I'm going to get myself a race bike. bounce bounce. Going to get
myself a race bike. bounce bounce. happy joy.

I've already decided on one the Habanero ti frames from Mark Hickey
and any day now am going to get him accurate measurements on my
current frame along with comments on how my local impressives think I
can improve upon the fit. Not planning on going the custom frame
route but without actually knowing the size of my current frame its
pretty hard to figure out which of his I'll get.

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'll be the first one
sold in China.

I wanted to buy the complete 105 gruppo secondhand off the bike shop
manager's Giant carbon wonder thus letting him upgrade to DA but he
won't go for it. I was thinking win win situation cause I know he got
105 at the time because he couldn't afford DA. However, cycling has
recently become the new hobby of rich Chinese with too much money and
a desire to show off how much they can spend and he's no longer got
any kind of cash flow problem. Since he's actually thinking of
upgrading to a Look carbon wonder he'll only sell me the whole bike
secondhand.

Even if it fits me alright I don't want to buy his bike. It'll never
be mine. It'll be _his_ bike that I got secondhand because he got
something better.

All new gruppo it is then.

So what are the differences? What makes one better than the other?
Why should I spend (or not spend) the extra money?

Spend the money on the frame, then the fork, then the wheels(good
handbults are best), then maybe the saddle and brakes. All else are
really consummables. DA is not 'better' than ultegra and 105, the 10s
stuff. They are lighter and all too often 'lighter' is percieved as
'better', but in reality it's just lighter.

use the extra $ for good bike clothes, tires, a massage
therapist( have them in China?) and good coach, etc. WAY to much
emphasis on the bike.....4 things make you a better rider-
-fit-bike fit
-fitness-making sure you are cuycling fit
-finesse-riding, training and racing smart
-fat-lacktherof on you, not your bike.

Like Eddy Merckx said-'ride lots'.

Marian said:

I'm going to get myself a race bike. bounce bounce. Going to get
myself a race bike. bounce bounce. happy joy.

I've already decided on one the Habanero ti frames from Mark Hickey
and any day now am going to get him accurate measurements on my
current frame along with comments on how my local impressives think I
can improve upon the fit. Not planning on going the custom frame
route but without actually knowing the size of my current frame its
pretty hard to figure out which of his I'll get.

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'll be the first one
sold in China.

I wanted to buy the complete 105 gruppo secondhand off the bike shop
manager's Giant carbon wonder thus letting him upgrade to DA but he
won't go for it. I was thinking win win situation cause I know he got
105 at the time because he couldn't afford DA. However, cycling has
recently become the new hobby of rich Chinese with too much money and
a desire to show off how much they can spend and he's no longer got
any kind of cash flow problem. Since he's actually thinking of
upgrading to a Look carbon wonder he'll only sell me the whole bike
secondhand.

Even if it fits me alright I don't want to buy his bike. It'll never
be mine. It'll be _his_ bike that I got secondhand because he got
something better.

All new gruppo it is then.

So what are the differences? What makes one better than the other?
Why should I spend (or not spend) the extra money?

Chuck's bikes often has groups or partial groups for sale. He has a
partial 105 group listed now; go to www.chucksbikes.com/store/ and
click on shifters

dkl

On Mar 8, 9:35 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Marian said:

I'm going to get myself a race bike. bounce bounce. Going to get
myself a race bike. bounce bounce. happy joy.

Quoted message said:

I've already decided on one the Habanero ti frames from Mark Hickey
and any day now am going to get him accurate measurements on my
current frame along with comments on how my local impressives think I
can improve upon the fit. Not planning on going the custom frame
route but without actually knowing the size of my current frame its
pretty hard to figure out which of his I'll get.

Quoted message said:

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'll be the first one
sold in China.

Quoted message said:

I wanted to buy the complete 105 gruppo secondhand off the bike shop
manager's Giant carbon wonder thus letting him upgrade to DA but he
won't go for it. I was thinking win win situation cause I know he got
105 at the time because he couldn't afford DA. However, cycling has
recently become the new hobby of rich Chinese with too much money and
a desire to show off how much they can spend and he's no longer got
any kind of cash flow problem. Since he's actually thinking of
upgrading to a Look carbon wonder he'll only sell me the whole bike
secondhand.

Quoted message said:

Even if it fits me alright I don't want to buy his bike. It'll never
be mine. It'll be _his_ bike that I got secondhand because he got
something better.

Quoted message said:

All new gruppo it is then.

Quoted message said:

So what are the differences? What makes one better than the other?
Why should I spend (or not spend) the extra money?

Spend the money on the frame, then the fork, then the wheels(good
handbults are best), then maybe the saddle and brakes. All else are
really consummables. DA is not 'better' than ultegra and 105, the 10s
stuff. They are lighter and all too often 'lighter' is percieved as
'better', but in reality it's just lighter.

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

Quoted message said:

use the extra $ for good bike clothes,

cause bike shorts are an even bigger consumable for me than chains are

Quoted message said:

tires,

thankfully no longer shredding those on a regular basis. We suspect
that there was something going on with the rim on that rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

a massage therapist( have them in China?)

Got massage. Even medical massage. Not sure it is quite up to the
level of massage therapist though. I go a minimum of once a week.

Quoted message said:

and good coach, etc.

the amateur one I ride with regularly or the retired professional one
who occasionally gives free invitation only classes cause he a) feels
like it and b) has the time?

Quoted message said:

WAY to much emphasis on the bike.....4 things make you a better rider-
-fit-bike fit
-fitness-making sure you are cuycling fit
-finesse-riding, training and racing smart
-fat-lacktherof on you, not your bike.

which will be helped by
- moving to a town in the mountains and having a new road to train on
that involves 10km of climbing at average 5% grade (it was used during
the Tour de and I still have the technical guide...)

Seriously, since I'm in a pretty good situation regarding the non-bike
things that will make me a better rider and since I'm planning on
dropping a bundle on the bike I'm trying to find out more about the
technical differences between the high-end gruppos. I know lighter
doesn't necessarily equal better but at the same time I also can tell
the difference with regards to friction when turning them by hand
between the 105 hubs on my new wheels and the Joytech hubs on my old
wheels.

-M

Quoted message said:

Marian said:

I'm going to get myself a race bike. bounce bounce. Going to get
myself a race bike. bounce bounce. happy joy.

Quoted message said:

I've already decided on one the Habanero ti frames from Mark Hickey
and any day now am going to get him accurate measurements on my
current frame along with comments on how my local impressives think I
can improve upon the fit. Not planning on going the custom frame
route but without actually knowing the size of my current frame its
pretty hard to figure out which of his I'll get.

Quoted message said:

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'll be the first one
sold in China.

Quoted message said:

I wanted to buy the complete 105 gruppo secondhand off the bike shop
manager's Giant carbon wonder thus letting him upgrade to DA but he
won't go for it. I was thinking win win situation cause I know he got
105 at the time because he couldn't afford DA. However, cycling has
recently become the new hobby of rich Chinese with too much money and
a desire to show off how much they can spend and he's no longer got
any kind of cash flow problem. Since he's actually thinking of
upgrading to a Look carbon wonder he'll only sell me the whole bike
secondhand.

Quoted message said:

Even if it fits me alright I don't want to buy his bike. It'll never
be mine. It'll be _his_ bike that I got secondhand because he got
something better.

Quoted message said:

All new gruppo it is then.

Quoted message said:

So what are the differences? What makes one better than the other?
Why should I spend (or not spend) the extra money?

Chuck's bikes often has groups or partial groups for sale. He has a
partial 105 group listed now; go towww.chucksbikes.com/store/and
click on shifters

I'm mostly trying to figure out _what_ I should buy without resorting
to asking the head mechanic (who will tell me at great length in
technical Chinese jargon) rather than _where_.

Because I'm not only a member of the amateur bike team but also the
cycling association's translator and because I give the bike shop
manager regular English lessons for free I generally make my purchases
at cost.

Sometimes this works out to about the same as I'd pay in the US (even
on stuff produced in country) but, as a general rule, I get a sweet
deal.

-M

Marian said:

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

"Marian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm going to get myself a race bike. bounce bounce. Going to get
myself a race bike. bounce bounce. happy joy.

I've already decided on one the Habanero ti frames from Mark Hickey
and any day now am going to get him accurate measurements on my
current frame along with comments on how my local impressives think I
can improve upon the fit. Not planning on going the custom frame
route but without actually knowing the size of my current frame its
pretty hard to figure out which of his I'll get.

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong but I think it'll be the first one
sold in China.

I wanted to buy the complete 105 gruppo secondhand off the bike shop
manager's Giant carbon wonder thus letting him upgrade to DA but he
won't go for it. I was thinking win win situation cause I know he got
105 at the time because he couldn't afford DA. However, cycling has
recently become the new hobby of rich Chinese with too much money and
a desire to show off how much they can spend and he's no longer got
any kind of cash flow problem. Since he's actually thinking of
upgrading to a Look carbon wonder he'll only sell me the whole bike
secondhand.

Even if it fits me alright I don't want to buy his bike. It'll never
be mine. It'll be _his_ bike that I got secondhand because he got
something better.

All new gruppo it is then.

So what are the differences? What makes one better than the other?
Why should I spend (or not spend) the extra money?

The basic difference is 495 :P

M-gineering said:

Marian said:

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

??-2 piece crank with 105 is amost identical to 6600...no aluminum
axle...

Quoted message said:

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNLwww.m-gineering.nl

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

M-gineering said:

Marian said:

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

??-2 piece crank with 105 is amost identical to 6600...no aluminum
axle...

You're lucky I don't bet. Maybe you're going by what it says in the
dealercatalogue (which says that 6600 has an aluminium axle, at least in
the German version which isn't true either 😉) but you should take a look.

Here are two axles (760 and 5500) side by side: www.m-gineering.nl/htech.jpg

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

M-gineering said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

M-gineering said:

Marian wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?
if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

Quoted message said:

??-2 piece crank with 105 is amost identical to 6600...no aluminum
axle...

You're lucky I don't bet. Maybe you're going by what it says in the
dealercatalogue (which says that 6600 has an aluminium axle, at least in
the German version which isn't true either 😉) but you should take a look.

Here are two axles (760 and 5500) side by side:www.m-gineering.nl/htech.jpg

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNLwww.m-gineering.nl

Wow, good catch, Marten. It does look like Shimano has been cutting
corners in mysterious ways recently. I was looking into getting a
"non-series" compact crank until I found out the FC-R600 was
apparently not cold forged (at least there is no mention of this in
their catalog, where as 105 is mentioned as cold forged). And now an
alum. axle instead of steel, just makes it so much less appealing.
And the FC-R600 do not have Hollowtech unlike their supposed 105
brethren, but I suppose that could be a feature, except it weighs
about 150g more than the standard 105 version.

M-gineering said:

Marian said:

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

I haven't been a bike geek that long and have been doing most of my
bike geeking with people who, when they get down to the real serious
geekery, do it in Chinese at a level that I'm almost but not quite yet
able to understand fully.

So 105 brifters, brakes, derailleurs and Ultegra BB, chainrings,
cassette with handbuilt wheels using 105 hubs? some other kind of hub
entirely?

-M

Marian said:

M-gineering said:

Marian said:

Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?

if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

I haven't been a bike geek that long and have been doing most of my
bike geeking with people who, when they get down to the real serious
geekery, do it in Chinese at a level that I'm almost but not quite yet
able to understand fully.

So 105 brifters, brakes, derailleurs and Ultegra BB, chainrings,
cassette with handbuilt wheels using 105 hubs? some other kind of hub
entirely?

-M

The axle is now integral with the chainset, 105 hubs will be fine

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

M-gineering said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

M-gineering said:

Marian wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Other than weight is there a big difference between 105 and Ultegra?
if you have to ask 105 is good enough. The upgrade to consider is a
different chainset, as the cheesy chainrings and the aluminium axle
don't inspire much confidence.

Quoted message said:

??-2 piece crank with 105 is amost identical to 6600...no aluminum
axle...

You're lucky I don't bet. Maybe you're going by what it says in the
dealercatalogue (which says that 6600 has an aluminium axle, at least in
the German version which isn't true either 😉) but you should take a look.

Here are two axles (760 and 5500) side by side:www.m-gineering.nl/htech.jpg

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNLwww.m-gineering.nl

Hmmm, I have installed their compacts(R700) and all three 7800, 6600,
and 5600...and I don't remember the crank spindles being aluminum on
any of them. But the 105 one was a while ago.

Marian said:

I'm mostly trying to figure out _what_ I should buy without resorting
to asking the head mechanic (who will tell me at great length in
technical Chinese jargon) rather than _where_.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes this works out to about the same as I'd pay in the US (even
on stuff produced in country) but, as a general rule, I get a sweet
deal.

You should first consider whether you want to go with 9-speed or 10-
speed. The make-or-break on 10-speed will likely be whether you can
tolerate the price of cassettes and chains. You might also have
availability problems with 10-speed parts (although I imagine 9-speed
may be the same for you). Some NOS 9-speed 105 or Ultegra shifters may
be more suitable for you. They are functionally identical. If you go
this way get the later models 5510 or 6510. These are identified by a
rubber ring around the plastic lever. 10-speed 105 and Ultegra
shifters are different in that the 105 retains the ability to run on
both double and triple chainrings with the same shifters but Ultegra
comes in double or triple specific versions.

amakyonin said:

Marian said:

I'm mostly trying to figure out _what_ I should buy without resorting
to asking the head mechanic (who will tell me at great length in
technical Chinese jargon) rather than _where_.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes this works out to about the same as I'd pay in the US (even
on stuff produced in country) but, as a general rule, I get a sweet
deal.

You should first consider whether you want to go with 9-speed or 10-
speed. The make-or-break on 10-speed will likely be whether you can
tolerate the price of cassettes and chains. You might also have
availability problems with 10-speed parts (although I imagine 9-speed
may be the same for you).

Replacement Dura Ace is easier to get than replacement Sora. And
there is always the ever-popular "waiting for the next shipment from
Shanghai Shimano." My current road bike had to undergo a serious
upgrade because the kind of parts it previously had simply aren't
worth stocking. People who ride their bikes enough to wear parts out
are either riding something much lower end or are three steps higher
up the food chain.

I was thinking the 10 speed make or break would be the question of
whether or not I wanted to go bleeding edge.

Quoted message said:

Some NOS 9-speed 105 or Ultegra shifters may
be more suitable for you. They are functionally identical. If you go
this way get the later models 5510 or 6510. These are identified by a
rubber ring around the plastic lever. 10-speed 105 and Ultegra
shifters are different in that the 105 retains the ability to run on
both double and triple chainrings with the same shifters but Ultegra
comes in double or triple specific versions.

And just because I don't plan on the race bike having a triple -now-
doesn't mean I won't decide to later or move those shifters down to
another bike at a later date.

-M

Quoted message said:

Replacement Dura Ace is easier to get than replacement Sora. And
there is always the ever-popular "waiting for the next shipment from
Shanghai Shimano." My current road bike had to undergo a serious
upgrade because the kind of parts it previously had simply aren't
worth stocking. People who ride their bikes enough to wear parts out
are either riding something much lower end or are three steps higher
up the food chain.

Seems to me like sora stuff is easy enough to find. I replaced some
old derailers recently with RX100 and Sora derailleurs from ebay
stores. Paid $10 and $20 for them if I remember correctly. I think
the key is having 2 or more bikes so you can ride bike #2 until the
part shows up in the mail.

One rear derailer I replaced was an Exage 400, a level below RX100
which was one level below 105. It had about 10K miles on it. It was
on my commuter/tourer/rain bike, and had many rain miles and several
airplane flights in boxes without the benefit of having the derailer
removed or guarded from pressure. It had also been leaned up against
many walls with the derailer taking the pressure. Would I have gotten
more from an ultegra unit?

dkl

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Replacement Dura Ace is easier to get than replacement Sora. And
there is always the ever-popular "waiting for the next shipment from
Shanghai Shimano." My current road bike had to undergo a serious
upgrade because the kind of parts it previously had simply aren't
worth stocking. People who ride their bikes enough to wear parts out
are either riding something much lower end or are three steps higher
up the food chain.

SIS rear derailleur -> Alivio
no-name -> FSA crankset with Ultegra granny gear
Joytech hubs -> 105
Giant rims -> Alexrims
Sora front derailleur -> Tiagra
6 speed cassette -> 8 speed 11-28 cassette
new chain
---
out of pocket = 1980 rmb

So it hurt, but it didn't hurt that much ... and I've still got all
the old stuff which will get moved off onto a friend's bike.

Silly to wait for a shipment when the cost of something 'a little
better' isn't that much more.

Quoted message said:

Seems to me like sora stuff is easy enough to find. I replaced some
old derailers recently with RX100 and Sora derailleurs from ebay
stores. Paid $10 and $20 for them if I remember correctly. I think
the key is having 2 or more bikes so you can ride bike #2 until the
part shows up in the mail.

Or to replace things before you break them.

Quoted message said:

One rear derailer I replaced was an Exage 400, a level below RX100
which was one level below 105. It had about 10K miles on it. It was
on my commuter/tourer/rain bike, and had many rain miles and several
airplane flights in boxes without the benefit of having the derailer
removed or guarded from pressure. It had also been leaned up against
many walls with the derailer taking the pressure. Would I have gotten
more from an ultegra unit?

Beats me, this is kind of why I want to ask here what I ought to be
getting. Lots of it is going to have to be ordered anyways.

-M