another cyclist dies.

Steve Knight said:

well this guy was going the wrong way it looks like. don't know about a helmet.
katu.comstory.aspOpen ↗

Wrong way??

"Police said the bus and the cyclist were traveling eastbound on Halsey when the bus struck
the cyclist.

Witnesses told KATU the bus crossed the bike lane to stop at the bus stop east of the accident when
it stuck the cyclist that was riding in a bike lane from behind.

However Tri-Met officials said the cyclist avoided an automobile and veered into the bus' path.

The front right headlight of the bus was damaged from the accident."

Reads to me as if the bicyclist was rear ended, the bus coming from behind as they both traveled in
the same direction.

The one type of collision that I pretend will never happen because if I really thought that it could
happen, I would be paralyzed each time a car passed.

Steve Knight said:

well this guy was going the wrong way it looks like. don't know about a helmet.
katu.comstory.aspOpen ↗

I don't know where you got that. The bus and the cyclist were both going Eastbound. The bus hit him
from behind. They say the cyclist was trying to avoid another car.

When a cyclist is hit by a bus, whether or not he has a helmet is not the important issue.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. -- _`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

Quoted message said:

I don't know where you got that. The bus and the cyclist were both going Eastbound.

At shortly after 4 p.m., which would rule out sun glare, and apparently in dry conditions, assuming
the photos were taken shortly after the accident.

Quoted message said:

The bus hit him from behind. They say the cyclist was trying to avoid another car.

Actually, the article says the Tri-Met people are saying that.

Which is basically the driver's story.

Quoted message said:

When a cyclist is hit by a bus, whether or not he has a helmet is not the important issue.

I'll agree with that.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

Steve Knight said:

well this guy was going the wrong way it looks like. don't know about a helmet.
katu.comstory.aspOpen ↗

I won't bother to point out what others have, that this guy was going the right direction.

However, as someone who lives in Portland, I can vouch for this being a huge problem. A lot of the
bus drivers, in spite of the fact that they drive vehicles that transport people who choose
alternative methods, hate cyclists and barely like pedestrians. Because of this, the antipathy runs
both ways. I'm not saying that was the temperment of this driver and many drivers I've met in my
travels here in Portland have been very nice. But some of them have also been some of the biggest
jerks I've ever met. They drive like hell and don't really pay much attention to what they're doing
and they basically hate their customers.

Also, it indeed wasn't raining Friday (I was out in it) so that wasn't a problem. And yes, these
places were buses pull over are a huge problem. Most of the time, what bus drivers will do is pass
you and pull in front of you. I've almost been tatered many many times by a bus driver that couldn't
wait the 5 seconds for me to get pass the bus stop, so he/she decided to whip in front of me like
they were driving a mini cooper, cross the bike lane and pull up to the bus stop right in front me,
forcing me to slam on my brakes to avoid getting hit. A lot of them drive like this and just don't
give a damn, so a collision like this doesn't surprise me at all. In my mind, the buses in Portland
are the single most dangerous thing on the road in areas where they run frequently. Minus the bus
mall. The bus mall and downtown in general are relatively safe. But anywhere outside of downtown
(and 126th and Halsey would definitely be way outside, almost to Gresham) the drivers do this kind
of thing all the time. The cyclist may have made a sudden move, but this sounds like to me the whole
thing could have been avoided if the bus driver would have waited a whole 3 second before making
his/her bus stop. And THAT is a big problem (as I said before) here in Portland. Bus drivers do this
all the time.

Sorry for ranting. This just gets me fired up because I see near misses all the time by some of
these buses. I'd be willing to be money that this accident would never have happened had the bus
driver waited just a second more. But he/she probably wasn't paying attention to traffic and what
was going on to his/her left. Now someone is dead.

Preston

dOn Sat said:

O Wrong way??

oops I was not listening carefully.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See
knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For prices and ordering instructions.

Quoted message said:

Sorry for ranting. This just gets me fired up because I see near misses all the time by some of
these buses. I'd be willing to be money that this accident would never have happened had the bus
driver waited just a second more. But he/she probably wasn't paying attention to traffic and what
was going on to his/her left. Now someone is dead.

I agree. I don't like riding on streets with busses. I almost got squeezed between a bus passing me
and a car. if I had not slowed down and let the bus pass I would have been a sandwich. now when I
ride the bus I watch cars do the same thing pass the bus on the left and turn in front and make a
right turn.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See
knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For prices and ordering instructions.

Notice that the bus driver was debriefed by the company (and I assume, told what to say). Talk
about CYA.

Ernie

Steve Knight said:

well this guy was going the wrong way it looks like. don't know about a helmet.
katu.comstory.aspOpen ↗

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See
knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For prices and ordering instructions.

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know where you got that. The bus and the cyclist were both going Eastbound.

At shortly after 4 p.m., which would rule out sun glare, and apparently in dry conditions,
assuming the photos were taken shortly after the accident.

Quoted message said:

The bus hit him from behind. They say the cyclist was trying to avoid another car.

Actually, the article says the Tri-Met people are saying that.

That's right. I didn't want to get into that, but it did seem like the transit company was covering
its ass. The follow-up on this suggests there is a real problem with the bus drivers.

I live in the Philadelphia area, so don't have a problem with bus drivers....

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve _`\(,_ | death. And some that die
deserve life. Can you give it to (_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
judgement. -- J. R. R. Tolkien

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I live in the Philadelphia area, so don't have a problem with bus drivers....

Which is much like saying you live on the moon, so you don't have a problem with the lack of
atmosphere... <g>

To their credit, the SEPTA drivers on my commute seem to have come to understand how to interact
with me, for the most part, after seeing me day after day for years. They respond to my "go ahead
and pass" or "please stay behind me" signals fairly consistently. But it requires a degree of
alertness and situational awareness on my part that comes naturally to me, but which seems rare in
more casual cyclists. It probably also helps that I can still stand up and sprint; I wonder how
things will be in 10 years.

RichC

Steve Knight said:

I agree. I don't like riding on streets with busses. I almost got squeezed between a bus passing me
and a car. if I had not slowed down and let the bus pass I would have been a sandwich.

I've been cut off by the odd bus pulling over to stop to pick up passengers. I almost now regard it
as routine. I've also had a bus or two pull out into traffic with complete disregard to my presence.

But by far the worst incident occured on a two-lane road with gravel shoulders. I was in the middle
of a perfectly straight stretch of road than ran for at least two km. Riding about a foot from the
soft shoulder I suddenly had a bus come up from behind at full speed, passing less than a foot to my
left. The wind from the bus blew me way off onto the shoulder and almost flipped me into the ditch.

When I pulled into the bus station a few minutes later, I got onto the bus and demanded an
explanation from the driver. The response I was given was that I had no business being there.

Not good enough. I called the cops and the driver got reamed out, but since I'd missed the
disembarking passengers, there were no witnesses. Interestingly, the passengers who got onto the bus
at the station were VERY supportive of me, despite my holding up the bus for over 15 minutes while
waiting for the police before the company sent a replacement bus for them.

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
::
::: I live in the Philadelphia area, so don't have a problem with bus drivers....
::
:: Which is much like saying you live on the moon, so you don't have a problem with the lack of
:: atmosphere... <g>
::
:: To their credit, the SEPTA drivers on my commute seem to have come to understand how to interact
:: with me, for the most part, after seeing me day after day for years. They respond to my "go ahead
:: and pass" or "please stay behind me" signals fairly consistently. But it requires a degree of
:: alertness and situational awareness on my part that comes naturally to me, but which seems rare
:: in more casual cyclists. It probably also helps that I can still stand up and sprint; I wonder
:: how things will be in 10 years.

Would you please explain your two signals to this slightly-over-one-month-with-a-bike
newbie, please?

Thanks.

E & V Willson said:

Notice that the bus driver was debriefed by the company (and I assume, told what to say). Talk
about CYA.

I bet. home someone notices who it was.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See
knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For prices and ordering instructions.

In article said:

Steve Knight said:

I agree. I don't like riding on streets with busses. I almost got squeezed between a bus passing
me and a car. if I had not slowed down and let the bus pass I would have been a sandwich.

I've been cut off by the odd bus pulling over to stop to pick up passengers. I almost now regard it
as routine. I've also had a bus or two pull out into traffic with complete disregard to my
presence.

It seems like this 'bad B-driver' behavior is almost universal,
b/c they are the same here. I've not seen any bikers hit but seen then cut off and nearly hit in a
short drive down mainstreet. In addition the bus drivers like to cut off all traffic when they
find another bus ahead of them waiting to pick up or drop off, totally blockading the road.

Since they are cavalier about pulling out infront of passing cars to get back in traffic, I'm not at
-all- surprised that they would chance running over a biker to get back in lane. They will at least
hesitate while trying to intimidate a car to stop, but feel that a biker is simply no competition
and worth no consideration - paradoxically the danger of pulling out in front of a car might only be
a broken mirror or dingged fender. 'Tapping' a bike could easily result in propelling him under the
bus, or out into traffic, obviously.

Quoted message said:

But by far the worst incident occured on a two-lane road with gravel shoulders. I was in the
middle of a perfectly straight stretch of road than ran for at least two km. Riding about a foot
from the soft shoulder I suddenly had a bus come up from behind at full speed, passing less than a
foot to my left. The wind from the bus blew me way off onto the shoulder and almost flipped me
into the ditch.

When I pulled into the bus station a few minutes later, I got onto the bus and demanded an
explanation from the driver. The response I was given was that I had no business being there.

Not good enough. I called the cops and the driver got reamed out, but

Good for you. In a 'pumped up' condition, I think I might have stumbled and crunched his foot
"accidently" with the bikeshoe cleats, and tapped him in the jaw with my shoulder...of course due
only to clumsiness. ;-) I think you showed marvelous restraint.

Quoted message said:

since I'd missed the disembarking passengers, there were no witnesses. Interestingly, the
passengers who got onto the bus at the station were VERY supportive of me, despite my holding up
the bus for over 15 minutes while waiting for the police before the company sent a replacement bus
for them.

I think I'd have considered speaking to my lawyer about it, and had him call and threaten the bus
Co., at least, to help drill the lesson for the future.

Anyway, glad you weren't injured.

-B
--
Email Replies to johnson<nospm>01j <att> ntelos <dott> net

sbirn wrote:
:: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:32:07 GMT, Steve Knight wrote:
::: I agree. I don't like riding on streets with busses. I almost got squeezed between a bus passing
::: me and a car. if I had not slowed down and let the bus pass I would have been a sandwich.
::
:: I've been cut off by the odd bus pulling over to stop to pick up passengers. I almost now regard
:: it as routine. I've also had a bus or two pull out into traffic with complete disregard to my
:: presence.
::
:: But by far the worst incident occured on a two-lane road with gravel shoulders. I was in the
:: middle of a perfectly straight stretch of road than ran for at least two km. Riding about a foot
:: from the soft shoulder I suddenly had a bus come up from behind at full speed, passing less than
:: a foot to my left. The wind from the bus blew me way off onto the shoulder and almost flipped me
:: into the ditch.
::
:: When I pulled into the bus station a few minutes later, I got onto the bus and demanded an
:: explanation from the driver. The response I was given was that I had no business being there.
::
:: Not good enough. I called the cops and the driver got reamed out, but since I'd missed the
:: disembarking passengers, there were no witnesses. Interestingly, the passengers who got onto the
:: bus at the station were VERY supportive of me, despite my holding up the bus for over 15 minutes
:: while waiting for the police before the company sent a replacement bus for them.

Good for you for standing your ground and making your case!

ahh, yes. buses.

nicollet mall downtown minneapolis before the early 90s had been a full time bike/bus throughfare
and probably the best way to get through downtown. at some point ca 1992 a bicyclist was killed when
she was pinned between two buses (the details are and were kind of murky).

the city of minneapolis and MTC (metro transit, now MCTO) launched a little investigation and ended
up banning bikes m-f 8am to 6pm moving them over one street to new bike lines that brilliantly ran
right down the middle of the street.

mbma.netcops.jpgOpen ↗

ahh, there it is. under the left cop car.

naturally the bike lanes are well maintained in the winter. nearly as well as nicollet
mall had been.

mbma.netsnow.jpgOpen ↗

right, that's it under the ice & snow.

also in reaction to the death the cops started cracking down on bicyclists on the mall specifically
against passing which was said to be dangerous. no vehicles are allowed to pass on nicollet mall.
there's a double yellow line and everything.

mbma.netDO1.jpgOpen ↗ mbma.netBE.jpgOpen ↗
mbma.netDO2.jpgOpen ↗

ooops.

i thought at the time and i still believe they should have banished the damn buses to hennepin ave.
oh, well. thankfully it was all for our protection.

mbma.net is the minneapolis bicycle messengers association.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Clark wrote:
:: They respond to my "go ahead and pass" or "please stay behind me" signals fairly consistently.

Would you please explain your two signals to this slightly-over-one-month-with-a-bike
newbie, please?

I don't know what Rich's are, but mine are:

Left arm extended, hand flat, palm facing back, thumb pointed down (do not pass)

Left arm at 45 degree angle down, hand cupped, palm facing front, thumb up, whisking motion
(pass me now)

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

Home of the meditative cyclist: home.earthlink.netWelcome.htmOpen ↗

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: bookcrossing.comCpeterskyOpen ↗

Claire Petersky wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
::: Rich Clark wrote:
::::: They respond to my "go ahead and pass" or "please stay behind me" signals fairly consistently.
:::
::: Would you please explain your two signals to this slightly-over-one-month-with-a-bike newbie,
::: please?
::
:: I don't know what Rich's are, but mine are:
::
:: Left arm extended, hand flat, palm facing back, thumb pointed down (do not pass)
::
:: Left arm at 45 degree angle down, hand cupped, palm facing front, thumb up, whisking motion (pass
:: me now)

Cool...makes good sense, too.

Roger Zoul said:

Claire Petersky wrote:
:: I don't know what Rich's are, but mine are:
::
:: Left arm extended, hand flat, palm facing back, thumb pointed down (do not pass)
::
:: Left arm at 45 degree angle down, hand cupped, palm facing front, thumb up, whisking motion
:: (pass me now)

Cool...makes good sense, too.

One of the many cool things about cycling is that you can communicate that way. One of my most
frequent hand signals is to wave cars across when they've gotten to the four-way stop before me.

Many of the drivers just don't trust that a cyclist will stop. Without my encouragement, there would
be much more delay, and too many "You go - No, you go" disputes.

--
Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski said:

Roger Zoul said:

Claire Petersky wrote:
:: I don't know what Rich's are, but mine are:
::
:: Left arm extended, hand flat, palm facing back, thumb pointed down (do not pass)
::
:: Left arm at 45 degree angle down, hand cupped, palm facing front, thumb up, whisking motion
:: (pass me now)

Cool...makes good sense, too.

One of the many cool things about cycling is that you can communicate that way. One of my most
frequent hand signals is to wave cars across when they've gotten to the four-way stop before me.

Many of the drivers just don't trust that a cyclist will stop. Without my encouragement, there
would be much more delay, and too many "You go - No, you go" disputes.

I'm always amazed when a driver actually believes my repeated signals and goes ahead so I don't have
to actually stop. I'm never happy to have to scrub off forward momentum, it took too much work to
earn it :-(

--
Cheers, Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All bleeding eventually stops.