Do tires dry out?

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a year
or two?

Yes, that's what I do.

Art Harris

Robert Schiller said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a
year or two?

Not knowing what the weather is in your area, you might consider
tossing the plastic bag in the freezer if it gets hot in summer.
Living in mild SF bay area weather, I keep tires in a closed box (no
UV) and use them up as time wears on. I have had some tires for four
years and they still feel as fresh and tacky as when new... no cracks
when the tread is flexed.

Jobst Brandt

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a year
or two?

I dunno what them tires are made of--but tires made with real latex
rubber will "dry out" and harden. Keeping them somewhere cool, dark and
dry will extend this from happening but not prevent it.
,,,,,,
Synthetic rubber essentially doesn't.
What we call "dry rot" with modern tires is really UV damage from being
exposed to the sun.
~

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a year
or two?

They don't really dry out, but they can oxidize and become brittle.
Bagging them can help prevent this.

--

John ([email hidden])

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a
year or two?

It wouldn't hurt. The two major hazards are UV and ozone. Keeping them
in a dark place takes care of the UV, and keeping them sealed takes care
of the ozone.

BTW, the major source of ozone in most houses is appliances with gas pilot
lights. It's not uncommon for tires stored in a basement or garage near a
furnace, water heater, dryer, etc., to have deteriorated significantly in
a year or two. Chlorine fumes from pool chemicals are incredibly
corrosive too.

Matt O.

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a year
or two?

They can crack, but it is not "drying" and this can easily be avoided.
It is also worth mentioning that back in the sew-up days, many riders
"aged" their tires before using them.

For modern clincher tires, it is enough to keep them in the shade and
if there will be extremes in temperature you can further safeguard the
material by using talc inside and out. I always talc the inside of all
of my tires before using them. By the way, I have some tires that I
bought for a single annual event and have not bothered to install them
for several years (at least 5) because during the time that I bought
them and 5 years ago, when I stopped using them the tires at modest
price points kept getting better and better. When clincher tires
started to show up on race bikes (on race day, not just training) back
in the very early 1990s there was a huge difference in performance
between the typical mid-priced tire and the good stuff that were
essentially the same casings as good quality sew-ups. The first decent
clincher IMO was the Michelin (I forget the model name), but it wsa
still pretty stiff. As the mid-priced tires got better, I stopped
buying the hand-made tires. Ultimately I had some Pariba (hand made
model that was so supple, but not easy to find) and later the Veloflex
(which most people know is the company started by the laid-off
Vittoria tire makers when Vittoria started use Asian labor to keep
prices in line, and they were forced to compete against ever
increasing performance of the clinchers. At this point, I still have a
few Veloflex tires that are in precisely the condition they were when
I dismounted them. A plastic bag won't do much unless you are keeping
them somewhere that might allow chemicals or anything that might
damage them. The air will not damage them at all. Cracking is a
chemical change, not an issue of "drying".

Chris McReynolds said:

Quoted message said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for
a year or two?

Quoted message said:

They can crack, but it is not "drying" and this can easily be
avoided. It is also worth mentioning that back in the sew-up days,
many riders "aged" their tires before using them.

That was a gimmick put forth by bicycle shops that could sell few
tires in the winter. They put forth that aged tires either lasted
longer or tracked better, neither of which is true or had any
supporting arguments.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html

Quoted message said:

For modern clincher tires, it is enough to keep them in the shade
and if there will be extremes in temperature you can further
safeguard the material by using talc inside and out. I always talc
the inside of all of my tires before using them. By the way, I have
some tires that I bought for a single annual event and have not
bothered to install them for several years (at least 5) because
during the time that I bought them and 5 years ago, when I stopped
using them the tires at modest price points kept getting better and
better. When clincher tires started to show up on race bikes (on
race day, not just training) back in the very early 1990s there was
a huge difference in performance between the typical mid-priced tire
and the good stuff that were essentially the same casings as good
quality sew-ups. The first decent clincher IMO was the Michelin (I
forget the model name), but it wsa still pretty stiff. As the
mid-priced tires got better, I stopped buying the hand-made
tires. Ultimately I had some Pariba (hand made model that was so
supple, but not easy to find) and later the Veloflex (which most
people know is the company started by the laid-off Vittoria tire
makers when Vittoria started use Asian labor to keep prices in line,
and they were forced to compete against ever increasing performance
of the clinchers. At this point, I still have a few Veloflex tires
that are in precisely the condition they were when I dismounted
them. A plastic bag won't do much unless you are keeping them
somewhere that might allow chemicals or anything that might damage
them. The air will not damage them at all. Cracking is a chemical
change, not an issue of "drying".

I can't hold my reading breath long enough to tackle that paragraph.
Please try collecting your thoughts.

Jobst Brandt

RS said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for a year
or two?

I bought a '97 model year roadbike this week which was ridden once.
It's been in an SF bay area garage, if it matters, for the last 10
years with the tires mounted and aired up. They look fine and I'm
riding them.

Doug

Quoted message said:

Chris McReynolds said:

Quoted message said:

I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded up,
should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use them for
a year or two?

They can crack, but it is not "drying" and this can easily be
avoided. It is also worth mentioning that back in the sew-up days,
many riders "aged" their tires before using them.

That was a gimmick put forth by bicycle shops that could sell few
tires in the winter. They put forth that aged tires either lasted
longer or tracked better, neither of which is true or had any
supporting arguments.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html

Quoted message said:

For modern clincher tires, it is enough to keep them in the shade
and if there will be extremes in temperature you can further
safeguard the material by using talc inside and out. I always talc
the inside of all of my tires before using them. By the way, I have
some tires that I bought for a single annual event and have not
bothered to install them for several years (at least 5) because
during the time that I bought them and 5 years ago, when I stopped
using them the tires at modest price points kept getting better and
better. When clincher tires started to show up on race bikes (on
race day, not just training) back in the very early 1990s there was
a huge difference in performance between the typical mid-priced tire
and the good stuff that were essentially the same casings as good
quality sew-ups. The first decent clincher IMO was the Michelin (I
forget the model name), but it wsa still pretty stiff. As the
mid-priced tires got better, I stopped buying the hand-made
tires. Ultimately I had some Pariba (hand made model that was so
supple, but not easy to find) and later the Veloflex (which most
people know is the company started by the laid-off Vittoria tire
makers when Vittoria started use Asian labor to keep prices in line,
and they were forced to compete against ever increasing performance
of the clinchers. At this point, I still have a few Veloflex tires
that are in precisely the condition they were when I dismounted
them. A plastic bag won't do much unless you are keeping them
somewhere that might allow chemicals or anything that might damage
them. The air will not damage them at all. Cracking is a chemical
change, not an issue of "drying".

I can't hold my reading breath long enough to tackle that paragraph.
Please try collecting your thoughts.

Jobst Brandt

A life-long framebuilder I spoke with explained that the aging works
for handmade silk/cotton tubulars and not the vulcanized (machine-made
I guess) tubulars. He said for the fine (and expensive) handmade
stuff, he said the aging allows the glue (or whatever compound) they
use in the tire making process to set and harden/strengthen. I can't
recall the full details, and given I have no idea how handmade
tubulars are made (other than being sown at the end) I just understood
him enough to believe that the method does work, but only for the fine
stuff.

He said something like..."of course people don't believe in ageing
because most tubulars today are the vulcanized types which don't need
to be aged..."

This also made sense for why the belgium mechanics on USPS/Disco would
age those tubulars (handmade veloflex?).

Perhaps those more senior and experience folks that know or have seen
how handmade tubies are made can elaborate or correct.

Quoted message said:

A life-long framebuilder I spoke with explained that the aging works
for handmade silk/cotton tubulars ..

What would they hand make there?
A few stitches, perhaps. At most!

I started on racing bikes back in 1972 and the Clement Criterium
tubulars were my choice for a long time. The life-long mechanic whom I
referred to used to say that a fresh tubular would wear a little
faster, the rubber being softer. That made sense and when he wanted to
promote tubulars he had in stock he would repeat the refrain over and
over again.
Possibly true, for no more than a tiny effect.
However, aging too long certainly did make the adhesives dry out.
Especially that one glueing the protective base ribbon to the tube:
very difficult to glue back.

Sergio
Pisa

and not the vulcanized (machine-made

Quoted message said:

I guess) tubulars. He said for the fine (and expensive) handmade
stuff, he said the aging allows the glue (or whatever compound) they
use in the tire making process to set and harden/strengthen. I can't
recall the full details, and given I have no idea how handmade
tubulars are made (other than being sown at the end) I just understood
him enough to believe that the method does work, but only for the fine
stuff.

He said something like..."of course people don't believe in ageing
because most tubulars today are the vulcanized types which don't need
to be aged..."

This also made sense for why the belgium mechanics on USPS/Disco would
age those tubulars (handmade veloflex?).

Perhaps those more senior and experience folks that know or have seen
how handmade tubies are made can elaborate or correct.

sergio said:

I started on racing bikes back in 1972 and the Clement Criterium
tubulars were my choice for a long time. The life-long mechanic whom I
referred to used to say that a fresh tubular would wear a little
faster, the rubber being softer. That made sense and when he wanted to
promote tubulars he had in stock he would repeat the refrain over and
over again.

I can testify for the opposite effect -"very" aged tubulars will
definitely wear faster :-) When the rubber gets 'dry' enough, it wears
quickly.

Quoted message said:

Possibly true, for no more than a tiny effect.
However, aging too long certainly did make the adhesives dry out.
Especially that one glueing the protective base ribbon to the tube:
very difficult to glue back.

Yeah, seen that too on the really old ones.

sergio said:

Quoted message said:

A life-long framebuilder I spoke with explained that the aging works
for handmade silk/cotton tubulars ..

What would they hand make there?
A few stitches, perhaps. At most!

I think he said that they glue the rubber onto the silk casing by
hand, IIRC.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think he said that they glue the rubber onto the silk casing by
hand, IIRC.

Using fingers and palms to clamp?
I am really curious about it.

Sergio
Pisa

someone snipes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I've got some new Michelin Pro2Race and others new still folded
> up, should I put them in plastic bags if I'm not going to use
> them for a year or two?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They can crack, but it is not "drying" and this can easily be
avoided. It is also worth mentioning that back in the sew-up
days, many riders "aged" their tires before using them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That was a gimmick put forth by bicycle shops that could sell few
tires in the winter. They put forth that aged tires either lasted
longer or tracked better, neither of which is true or had any
supporting arguments.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For modern clincher tires, it is enough to keep them in the shade
and if there will be extremes in temperature you can further
safeguard the material by using talc inside and out. I always talc
the inside of all of my tires before using them. By the way, I
have some tires that I bought for a single annual event and have
not bothered to install them for several years (at least 5)
because during the time that I bought them and 5 years ago, when I
stopped using them the tires at modest price points kept getting
better and better. When clincher tires started to show up on race
bikes (on race day, not just training) back in the very early
1990s there was a huge difference in performance between the
typical mid-priced tire and the good stuff that were essentially
the same casings as good quality sew-ups. The first decent
clincher IMO was the Michelin (I forget the model name), but it
wsa still pretty stiff. As the mid-priced tires got better, I
stopped buying the hand-made tires. Ultimately I had some Pariba
(hand made model that was so supple, but not easy to find) and
later the Veloflex (which most people know is the company started
by the laid-off Vittoria tire makers when Vittoria started use
Asian labor to keep prices in line, and they were forced to
compete against ever increasing performance of the clinchers. At
this point, I still have a few Veloflex tires that are in
precisely the condition they were when I dismounted them. A
plastic bag won't do much unless you are keeping them somewhere
that might allow chemicals or anything that might damage them. The
air will not damage them at all. Cracking is a chemical change,
not an issue of "drying".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't hold my reading breath long enough to tackle that
paragraph. Please try collecting your thoughts.

Quoted message said:

A life-long framebuilder I spoke with explained that the aging works
for handmade silk/cotton tubulars and not the vulcanized
(machine-made I guess) tubulars. He said for the fine (and
expensive) handmade stuff, he said the aging allows the glue (or
whatever compound) they use in the tire making process to set and
harden/strengthen. I can't recall the full details, and given I have
no idea how handmade tubulars are made (other than being sown at the
end) I just understood him enough to believe that the method does
work, but only for the fine stuff.

Quoted message said:

He said something like..."of course people don't believe in ageing
because most tubulars today are the vulcanized types which don't
need to be aged..."

Quoted message said:

This also made sense for why the belgium mechanics on USPS/Disco
would age those tubulars (handmade veloflex?).

Quoted message said:

Perhaps those more senior and experience folks that know or have
seen how handmade tubies are made can elaborate or correct.

Nice of you to repeat old myth and lore. Why should a "lifelong frame
builder" have an understanding of the chemistry of rubber? What
changes is that the latex solution that holds the plys together and
attaches the tread and base tape, loses its elasticity, just as a gum
rubber band does lying on ones desk. You would need to try hard to
imagine any improvement in the elastomers that might occur with
"aging". The best example is to prolong th effect and see that
tubulars become completely hard and inflexible, examples of which I
have lying around.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/making-tubulars.html

Perhaps you might not assume all writers in this newsgroup are less
informed than you, senior or junior. Bicycling is full of this stuff.
I suppose you also tie and solder the spoke crossings in your wheels.

Jobst Brandt

On Feb 9, 3:23 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

<snipped for clarity>

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you might not assume all writers in this newsgroup are less
informed than you

Physician, heal thyself!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think he said that they glue the rubber onto the silk casing by
hand, IIRC.

sergio said:

Using fingers and palms to clamp?
I am really curious about it.

I saw a magazine photo series of Dourdoigne handmade tires once in
Miroir du Cyclisme. A row of inflated casings are on a drum. The
operator slathers latex over one with a brush, pulls a tread (large
rubber band!) over it and spins the drum, centering the tread with
fingers. A final coat of latex and on to the casing next to it. After
ten tires the drum is pulled off the fixture to go to a drying area and
another rack of tubulars goes on.

I never saw any other photo or report.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I think he said that they glue the rubber onto the silk casing by
> hand, IIRC.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Using fingers and palms to clamp? I am really curious about it.

Quoted message said:

I saw a magazine photo series of Dourdoigne handmade tires once in
Miroir du Cyclisme. A row of inflated casings are on a drum. The
operator slathers latex over one with a brush, pulls a tread (large
rubber band!) over it and spins the drum, centering the tread with
fingers. A final coat of latex and on to the casing next to it.
After ten tires the drum is pulled off the fixture to go to a drying
area and another rack of tubulars goes on.

Quoted message said:

I never saw any other photo or report.

To make up for that, I watched Lilian Wolf, wife of Spence Wolf of
Cupertino Bike Shop, make silk tubulars in their home for here sons
who could not get tires for the track. These were bare wall silks,
the sidewalls richly stamped in black ink "L.B.Wolf hand made tire"
and some other stuff.

A few years later, Mr. Cinelli took me along on a visit to Clement
tires in Milano where I saw production of the same kind of tire, done
much the same way except their sewing machines ran about five times as
fast, faster than you can make a rolling "R" with your tongue.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

>> I think he said that they glue the rubber onto the silk casing by
>> hand, IIRC.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Using fingers and palms to clamp? I am really curious about it.

Quoted message said:

I saw a magazine photo series of Dourdoigne handmade tires once in
Miroir du Cyclisme. A row of inflated casings are on a drum. The
operator slathers latex over one with a brush, pulls a tread (large
rubber band!) over it and spins the drum, centering the tread with
fingers. A final coat of latex and on to the casing next to it.
After ten tires the drum is pulled off the fixture to go to a drying
area and another rack of tubulars goes on.

Quoted message said:

I never saw any other photo or report.

To make up for that, I watched Lilian Wolf, wife of Spence Wolf of
Cupertino Bike Shop, make silk tubulars in their home for here sons
who could not get tires for the track. These were bare wall silks,
the sidewalls richly stamped in black ink "L.B.Wolf hand made tire"
and some other stuff.

A few years later, Mr. Cinelli took me along on a visit to Clement
tires in Milano where I saw production of the same kind of tire, done
much the same way except their sewing machines ran about five times as
fast, faster than you can make a rolling "R" with your tongue.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.26.html

Jobst Brandt

how quaint. does that mean you know anything about polymers?

Quoted message said:

Nice of you to repeat old myth and lore. Why should a "lifelong frame
builder" have an understanding of the chemistry of rubber?

Well,
1) He was a respected professional frame builder so he dealt with
bikes et al. for a long time;
2) He saw firsthand the process of handmade silk tubulars and spoke
with the people there.
3) He imported directly from them and sold them. One could suspect a
conflict of interest for him to be pro-ageing, but I wasn't looking to
buy and he wasn't trying to sell.
4) He qualified the benefits of ageing to be applicable only to
handmade tubies, and agreed that there would be no benefit to others.

All of the above does not guarantee that he was right, but neither
would a bachelor's degree in chemical engineering. Perhaps you are
right Mr. B and he is wrong, but I cannot disregard so quickly the
opinion of a professional based on vast experience.

My question would be for you:
If (statistically significant) data showed that Disco/USPS team (or
any other that practice ageing) had less punctures than non-ageing
teams (e.g. punctures/km), would you consider that there may be a
benefit to ageing - even though you did not understand the logic - or
would you immediately assume that it must be some other variable that
is causing the results?

Ultimately, I don't care too much as I can't afford handmade silk
tubies. It just seems non-negligible that a (few?) Professional
team(s?) would go to the trouble of ageing their tires.

Josh