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What do you do?

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UK and Europe
Published
3 February 2007
Last activity
13 February 2007
Original author
Tony Raven
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213
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  1. I am in a discussion on a Cycling Campaign list at the moment and when I
    said that cycling was not dangerous one of the members responded:

    "This is the mistake of taking casualty figures as a measure of danger
    (that Mayer Hillman is always criticising).

    It's like the situation of the road crossing for pedestrians that is so
    dangerous, no-one ever goes there, so there are no casualties. It is
    apparently safe, because it is so dangerous. This is exactly the
    situation with cycling for the social groups who are almost
    unrepresented amongst cyclists. They make a correct judgement of the
    high level of danger that cycling on the roads presents to them,
    therefore they don't do it, therefore they don't add to the casualty
    figures.

    It's fairly safe for most of the people who do it, because people can
    judge their own capabilities. But this situation limits cycling, like
    skydiving or mountaineering, to a small subset of the population. This
    is serious because cycling is so socially and economically useful,
    unlike those other activities."

    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for cycling?

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  2. In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    I am in a discussion on a Cycling Campaign list at the moment and when I
    said that cycling was not dangerous one of the members responded:

    Quoted message said:

    It's like the situation of the road crossing for pedestrians that is so
    dangerous, no-one ever goes there, so there are no casualties. It is
    apparently safe, because it is so dangerous. This is exactly the
    situation with cycling for the social groups who are almost
    unrepresented amongst cyclists. They make a correct judgement of the
    high level of danger that cycling on the roads presents to them,
    therefore they don't do it, therefore they don't add to the casualty
    figures.

    Which social groups are these?

    Quoted message said:


    It's fairly safe for most of the people who do it, because people can
    judge their own capabilities. But this situation limits cycling, like
    skydiving or mountaineering, to a small subset of the population.

    Like kids, old ladies ...

    Quoted message said:


    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for cycling?


    Smother them in their sleep?

  3. Tony Raven said:

    I am in a discussion on a Cycling Campaign list at the moment and when I
    said that cycling was not dangerous one of the members responded:

    "This is the mistake of taking casualty figures as a measure of danger
    (that Mayer Hillman is always criticising).

    It's like the situation of the road crossing for pedestrians that is so
    dangerous, no-one ever goes there, so there are no casualties. It is
    apparently safe, because it is so dangerous. This is exactly the
    situation with cycling for the social groups who are almost
    unrepresented amongst cyclists. They make a correct judgement of the
    high level of danger that cycling on the roads presents to them,
    therefore they don't do it, therefore they don't add to the casualty
    figures.

    It's fairly safe for most of the people who do it, because people can
    judge their own capabilities. But this situation limits cycling, like
    skydiving or mountaineering, to a small subset of the population. This
    is serious because cycling is so socially and economically useful,
    unlike those other activities."

    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for cycling?

    Well, you'd need to come up with a convincing counter-hypothesis.

    To some degree he must be correct. There are some people who are so
    unobservant/distracted/uncoordinated that they are not safe to cycle and realise
    that (probably at some subconscious level)*. Thus they don't cycle and thus they
    don't add to cycling casualties.

    The important question is: Is the size of that group statistically significant?

    I suspect not, but you can't just point to what he says and deny it without some
    evidence.

    *Just as there are a lot of car drivers similarly challenged that don't realise
    it 🙁

  4. Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for cycling?

    Don't worry; I live with the bloke!

    He doesn't go to cycle campaign meetings as they clash with something else!

    My views are different...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  5. Rob Morley <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Smother them in their sleep?

    That would be my job...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  6. [email hidden] (Ewan)typed

    Quoted message said:

    To some degree he must be correct. There are some people who are so
    unobservant/distracted/uncoordinated that they are not safe to cycle
    and realise
    that (probably at some subconscious level)*. Thus they don't cycle and
    thus they
    don't add to cycling casualties.

    Quoted message said:

    The important question is: Is the size of that group statistically
    significant?

    Yes. There are huge numbers of women and children who perceive (or
    parents perceive) that cycling is too dangerous and so do not cycle.
    Here, in Outer London cyclists are a rarity and female cyclists are
    really few and far between.

    The only way for a cyclist to survive locally is to be very assertive.
    My partner is a shy guy.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  7. Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 03/02/2007 14:31 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for cycling?

    Don't worry; I live with the bloke!

    He doesn't go to cycle campaign meetings as they clash with something else!

    My views are different...

    I'd better be careful not to interfere in domestic harmony by enquiring
    further.

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  8. "Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I am in a discussion on a Cycling Campaign list at the moment and
    when I said that cycling was not dangerous one of the members
    responded:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    It's fairly safe for most of the people who do it, because people
    can judge their own capabilities. But this situation limits
    cycling, like skydiving or mountaineering, to a small subset of the
    population. This is serious because cycling is so socially and
    economically useful, unlike those other activities."

    What do you do when shroud wavers like this are campaigning for
    cycling?

    Well Yiddish has a word for someone who is generically accident
    prone - a klutz. Klutzes are probably at risk riding a bike, but
    then, they leave a trail of accidents whatever they are doing

    I don't think your dangerizers are thinking about the generic
    klutzes, though. Let's invent a new acronym, SAK -specific activity
    klutzes - which in this case means people who only become klutzes
    when they get on a bike. It's the hypothesis of the dangerizers that
    eh SAKs can recognize their SAKhood before they ever got on a bike.

    I think the SAK hypothesis goes with believing that there is nothing
    that can, or perhaps even should, be taught or learned about riding a
    bike. If you don't actually fall off your bike too often, you "know
    how to ride a bike". Demanding more knowledge, or more skill, is
    "elitist" and therefore evil. We obviously need a word that's the
    opposite of elitist here. I will use "stupidist", until somebody
    coins a better word (There surely must be a better word)

    People who teach bike courses think that makes their graduates safer.
    I think that almost every eight year old should and could learn up to
    level 2 of the new British standards, and every eleven year old could
    and should learn up to level three. I think that would increase the
    amount of cycling course graduates do, would greatly reduce the
    likelihood of course graduates having accidents, and that this would
    show up in accident rate statistics.

    I think that those who disagree with me should be prepared to say
    what proportion of the population can or can't learn the skills on
    the list for each cycling standard, what effect on safety the
    knowledge of each of the skills has, and whether other skills should
    also be on the least, teachable or unreachable

    John Forester thinks experience and training teach cyclists to avoid
    accidents - at least four out of five accidents are avoidable, he
    thinks. He discusses this in Effective Cycling (6th ed, p 271) and
    Bicycle Transportation (1977 ed, p60)

    Somewhere I've seen the statistic that for cyclists who ride over
    1000 miles per year the annual risk of accidents is a bout the same,
    no matter what their mileage. In other words, after the thousandth
    mile, each extra mile carries no extra risk whatsoever. If anyone
    can give me a reference for this I would appreciate it.

    Jeremy parker

  9. Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My views are different...

    Quoted message said:

    I'd better be careful not to interfere in domestic harmony by enquiring
    further.

    I am the one who edits the Camden Cyclist...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  10. Jeremy Parker wrote on 03/02/2007 15:09 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    John Forester thinks experience and training teach cyclists to avoid
    accidents - at least four out of five accidents are avoidable, he
    thinks. He discusses this in Effective Cycling (6th ed, p 271) and
    Bicycle Transportation (1977 ed, p60)

    Somewhere I've seen the statistic that for cyclists who ride over
    1000 miles per year the annual risk of accidents is a bout the same,
    no matter what their mileage. In other words, after the thousandth
    mile, each extra mile carries no extra risk whatsoever. If anyone
    can give me a reference for this I would appreciate it.

    To support that Kaplan (and Moritz) found that CTC members had one
    eighth the accident rate of the general college level adult population.

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  11. On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:15:57 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    To support that Kaplan (and Moritz) found that CTC members had one
    eighth the accident rate of the general college level adult population.

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    You are Troll R and I claim my five pounds.

    Our resident 'Care in the Community' Matt B's argument goes that the
    easiest way to cut speeding convictions is to raise speed limits.

    --
    My name is Tom Crispin and I'm a troll feeder.
    It's been 12 days since I last fed Troll B.

  12. Tom Crispin wrote on 03/02/2007 16:38 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    You are Troll R and I claim my five pounds.

    :-)

    Quoted message said:

    Our resident 'Care in the Community' Matt B's argument goes that the
    easiest way to cut speeding convictions is to raise speed limits.

    And he is indeed correct. In fact if you repealed the law on speeding
    you would at a stroke end all speeding convictions.

    Quoted message said:


    --
    My name is Tom Crispin and I'm a troll feeder.
    It's been 12 days since I last fed Troll B.

    And is the grass in the meadow

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  13. Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    Seriously, I think the best way to cut cycling accidents would be to
    make motorists liable for cyclists injuries in the case of collision.

    I think this might also increase cycling enormously.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  14. Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 03/02/2007 17:06 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    Seriously, I think the best way to cut cycling accidents would be to
    make motorists liable for cyclists injuries in the case of collision.

    You mean like in the Netherlands where cyclist and pedestrian accident
    rates are both much lower than the UK? I agree, with the caveat that
    the onus on proof of non-liability is on the motorist (to avoid abuse by
    couldn't care less cyclists) together with much stiffer penalties for
    those that do kill or seriously injure and much more training of the
    sort Tom of this parish does.

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  15. On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:15:57 +0000

    Tony Raven said:

    To support that Kaplan (and Moritz) found that CTC members had one
    eighth the accident rate of the general college level adult
    population.

    Whilst onna bike? Or taken over all activities?

    --
    not me guv

  16. "Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Yes. There are huge numbers of women and children who perceive (or
    parents perceive) that cycling is too dangerous and so do not cycle.
    Here, in Outer London cyclists are a rarity and female cyclists are
    really few and far between.

    The only way for a cyclist to survive locally is to be very assertive.
    My partner is a shy guy.

    I've had women tell me that they are surprised that I cycle *alone* and how
    they would never do such a thing as *it's too dangerous out there* and how
    I'm a bad mother as I allow my offspring to cycle to school.

  17. On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:46:11 -0000, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

    Quoted message said:


    "Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Yes. There are huge numbers of women and children who perceive (or
    parents perceive) that cycling is too dangerous and so do not cycle.
    Here, in Outer London cyclists are a rarity and female cyclists are
    really few and far between.

    The only way for a cyclist to survive locally is to be very assertive.
    My partner is a shy guy.

    I've had women tell me that they are surprised that I cycle *alone* and how
    they would never do such a thing as *it's too dangerous out there* and how
    I'm a bad mother as I allow my offspring to cycle to school.

    Whereas they are setting the stage for some nice hardened arteries in their
    children by ferrying them to school (and everywhere else, no doubt).

  18. Nick Kew wrote on 03/02/2007 17:42 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:15:57 +0000

    Tony Raven said:

    To support that Kaplan (and Moritz) found that CTC members had one
    eighth the accident rate of the general college level adult
    population.

    Whilst onna bike? Or taken over all activities?

    Surely you know the answer to your own question Nick

    --
    Tony

    "...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
    wildly inaccurate..."
    Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

  19. Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 03/02/2007 17:06 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    Tony Raven <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    Seriously, I think the best way to cut cycling accidents would be to
    make motorists liable for cyclists injuries in the case of collision.

    Quoted message said:

    You mean like in the Netherlands where cyclist and pedestrian accident
    rates are both much lower than the UK? I agree, with the caveat that
    the onus on proof of non-liability is on the motorist (to avoid abuse by
    couldn't care less cyclists) together with much stiffer penalties for
    those that do kill or seriously injure and much more training of the
    sort Tom of this parish does.

    Indeed; the partner agrees with me (or maybe I agree with him) on this one.

    I'm sure 'invisible' cyclists would suddenly be blindingly obvious if we
    changed this...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  20. Tom Crispin said:

    On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:15:57 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    To support that Kaplan (and Moritz) found that CTC members had one
    eighth the accident rate of the general college level adult population.

    So perhaps the best thing the Government could do to cut cyclist
    accidents is to give everyone CTC membership ;-^)

    You are Troll R and I claim my five pounds.

    Our resident 'Care in the Community' Matt B's argument goes that the
    easiest way to cut speeding convictions is to raise speed limits.

    Do you honestly believe that, or are you now playing the argument-losers
    game of misrepresentation and smear?

    Have I /ever/ discussed cutting speeding convictions?

    Why do you think that as someone who believes that it is inappropriate
    speed, usually within the prevailing speed limit, not /speeding/, that
    needs to be tackled, would I be worried about speeding convictions?

    --
    Matt B

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