Commuting Alternative?

[email hidden said:

"]I'm curious if anyone has come across a suitable bent for a reasonably
long commute that doesn't cost a fortune? I live just under 40 miles
from my work, and sometimes ride my singlespeed upright home. I've
lately been considering a fully geared road bike for this ride, leaving
my SS for a local bad-weather commuter. That was until I started
researching HPV's, where I saw some things that interest me. I've read
of people who are not overly athletic covering 40 miles in an hour or
just over on some of these sleek HPV's. I average about 15mph on my
way home with my SS, and don't see gears bringing me to or past 20.

Can I get a 30-40mph aerodynamic 'bent that will be reliable for daily
riding without spending 10K? I'd like to pedal my commute when I can,
but am not willing to sell my car to make it happen. The Hammacher
Schlemmer seems to be the cream of the crop. is there a heavier,
slower version for a fraction of the $14K price tag? Any other cheaper
bents you'd suggest I check out?

TIA,

Dan

Just to get things started here, have you looked into the F-40? It is a p-38 with a fairing set up. I do think 25-30 mph is more realistic but I am no expert on streamliners.
Mark the biker

Quoted message said:

I'm curious if anyone has come across a suitable bent for a reasonably
long commute that doesn't cost a fortune? .....

Sure there are--I have a LWB that cost me about $1100, not counting the
accessories I've put on it. I cannot sustain anywhere near 40 MPH on it
however.

The aero advantage is true but is not really huge: an aero recumbent
(like a highracer) with fairing, sock and tailbox should be expected at
best to get you about 6 mph faster than you're pedaling now.

The record streamliners that an average person might be able to hold 40
mph on aren't real practical for regular street use. Most full-fairings
you find are for trikes due to their greater stability in crosswinds,
but they also have greater frontal area (all the fastest HPVs now are
bicycles).
-------
A recumbent wouldn't be much faster than an upright bike, but it would
be a lot more comfortable.

If any type of bicycle engines are legal where you live, you could get a
motor kit. Most of the electrics it seems aren't much good beyond 25
miles but the gasoline ones could certainly hold 25-30 mph
easily--although if the engine is limited in capacity by a small
built-in tank, you may have to stop to refuel halfway (either at a gas
station, or by carrying a bottle of fuel with you).
~

Quoted message said:

Can I get a 30-40mph aerodynamic 'bent that will be reliable for daily
riding without spending 10K? I'd like to pedal my commute when I can,
but am not willing to sell my car to make it happen. The Hammacher
Schlemmer seems to be the cream of the crop. is there a heavier,
slower version for a fraction of the $14K price tag? Any other cheaper
bents you'd suggest I check out?

Probably the most popular fast velomoble of the moment is the Quest,
which you can find out about at http://www.velomobiel.nl/ and it comes
in at 40766 Euros without tax.
30783 Euros without tax will get you their "budget" model, the Mango,
which seems to have been well received but certainly isn't as fast.

Problems... there is, AIUI, a bit of a waiting list.

The Leitra (http://www.leitra.dk/) is ~4,500 Euros, won't be as quick as
the Dutch ones mentioned above but should move along at a tidy clip all
the same.

These are all machines that have been in production for some time and
have a track record of being usable, practical vehicles that work in
windy conditions.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Probably the most popular fast velomoble of the moment is the Quest,
which you can find out about at http://www.velomobiel.nl/ and it comes
in at 40766 Euros without tax.
30783 Euros without tax will get you their "budget" model, the Mango,
which seems to have been well received but certainly isn't as fast.

You seem to have some additional zeros here!
The website says 4766 euro and 3782 euro respectively.
Still not budget though.

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

Peter Clinch said:

Probably the most popular fast velomoble of the moment is the Quest,
which you can find out about at http://www.velomobiel.nl/ and it comes
in at 40766 Euros without tax.
30783 Euros without tax will get you their "budget" model, the Mango,
which seems to have been well received but certainly isn't as fast.

You seem to have some additional zeros here!
The website says 4766 euro and 3782 euro respectively.
Still not budget though.

Oooops, they were commas in the original, wonder what happened there...

When it comes to velomobiles, of course, "budget" is a relative term,
but these are some way short of the $14K on the one the OP had found.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted post said:

Can I get a 30-40mph aerodynamic 'bent that will be reliable for daily
riding without spending 10K?

No such bike or hpv exists at any price when you are talking about a
real world commute by a real world pilot. There are 50+ mile in hour
records held by exceptional pilots on a closed track (no hills, no
traffic lights ect.) but not in a real wolrd setting.

Jim Reilly

Thanks to all for the feedback. I'm left with a few questions, no
surprise. First, why would the Leitra be slower than the Quest or
Mango? Secondly, would someone really be any faster on the Mango than
on a high-end upright? It looks extremely cool if rather heavy. I can
envision myself spending a few thousand dollars & discovering that
it's actually significantly harder to ride to work than my regular
bicycle, perhaps due to the weight on the hills.

The F40 looks like an interesting solution as well. I have the same
reservations I have about the Mango, however. Also, the F40 is a
'bent with a fairing added. I wonder if a purpose-built velomobile
would be more efficient?

I've considered power-assisted vehicles, but don't think that's
the solution for me. A battery system would be too heavy when under my
own power to justify it's assistance, and would not have the juice
for my commute. It would also be very expensive with Lithium
batteries, and far too heavy to justify its weight with anything else.

A gas system would be add a few issues:
a) Smell. Parked inside & when running.
b) Legality. Suddenly it's a "motorized vehicle" and subject to
many laws & regs.
c) Personal satisfaction. At that point, why not take the car or
motorcycle? I could live with a little electric assist, but a gas
motor is too much.

It seems I set my expectations too high with my 30-40mph statement. I
would be OK with an average speed (including starts, stops & hills) of
20-25mph over my 37.92 mile ride home. My average last ride home was
15.58mph, giving me a 2:25hr ride on my steel singlespeed upright
bicycle. I'd need a 19mph average to get me under 2 hours. I
don't know if a lightweight geared road bike or a velomobile would
accomplish this or not. I also expect I'll be a little faster month
to month, at least until I get into peak shape.

I'd really like to speak with an upright rider who has logged some
miles in a velomobile to see how it compared. I'd hate to spend all
that money on one to find that I should have bought a road bike.

Quoted message said:

First, why would the Leitra be slower than the Quest or
Mango?

Not as aerodynamic.

Quoted message said:

Secondly, would someone really be any faster on the Mango than
on a high-end upright?

Yes, because of the aerodynamics.

Quoted message said:

It looks extremely cool if rather heavy.

Quite so, but as high speeds weight is less important than air
resistance. With "normal" race bikes the UCI specifically ban
aerodynamic aids, but using fairings the IHPVA speed records are about
30% better than the UCI "official" ones.

Quoted message said:

I can
envision myself spending a few thousand dollars & discovering that
it's actually significantly harder to ride to work than my regular
bicycle, perhaps due to the weight on the hills.

Once your speed drops under a critical value then weight will matter
more than the aerodynamics, but it's worth noting that the real-roads UK
"End to End" ride (over 800 miles with /lots/ of hills) has the record
held by a faired trike, with the rider taking his own upright racer
based record.
Also, what goes up, must come down, and then your aerodynamics wins out
again.

Quoted message said:

The F40 looks like an interesting solution as well. I have the same
reservations I have about the Mango, however. Also, the F40 is a
'bent with a fairing added. I wonder if a purpose-built velomobile
would be more efficient?

What /may/ be the case is it's a lot more stable in side winds. Talk to
people with real experience of them for that though.

Quoted message said:

It seems I set my expectations too high with my 30-40mph statement. I
would be OK with an average speed (including starts, stops & hills) of
20-25mph over my 37.92 mile ride home. My average last ride home was
15.58mph, giving me a 2:25hr ride on my steel singlespeed upright
bicycle. I'd need a 19mph average to get me under 2 hours. I
don't know if a lightweight geared road bike or a velomobile would
accomplish this or not. I also expect I'll be a little faster month
to month, at least until I get into peak shape.

If the roads aren't particularly exceptionally poorly suited, a fully
faired machine should give you a more reliable overall figure (i.e.,
with less difference between still and headwind days). My guess is the
average should be better as long as you're keeping effort high, because
aerodynamics takes up the lion's share of the effort any time you're
above about 15 mph.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

stratrider said:

Quoted post said:

Can I get a 30-40mph aerodynamic 'bent that will be reliable for daily
riding without spending 10K?

No such bike or hpv exists at any price when you are talking about a
real world commute by a real world pilot. There are 50+ mile in hour
records held by exceptional pilots on a closed track (no hills, no
traffic lights ect.) but not in a real wolrd setting.

Jim Reilly

I do not think 30mph average is an unreasonable figure for a fully faired
velomobile ridden by a reasonably fit pilot.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

Quoted post said:

It seems I set my expectations too high with my 30-40mph statement. I
would be OK with an average speed (including starts, stops & hills) of
20-25mph over my 37.92 mile ride home. My average last ride home was
15.58mph, giving me a 2:25hr ride on my steel singlespeed upright
bicycle. I'd need a 19mph average to get me under 2 hours.

I think 20-25mph is an aggresive but reasonable goal. Check out:

http://www.recumbents.com/mars/pages/proj/tetz/OFS/projtetzOFS.html

I first saw several of these at the Seagull Century in Maryland, USA
back in 1999-2000. One gentlemen (perhaps the guy pictured in the
link) was said to average over 25 mph for the entire 100 miles in in
his homebuilt slipstream lowracer. I think he was about 65 years old
at the time!

Jim Reilly

On Jan 25, 2:33 am, Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I do not think 30mph average is an unreasonable figure for a fully faired
velomobile ridden by a reasonably fit pilot.

Not too many years ago I jumped into a pace line during a century ride
on my 1999 Stratus. We covered 24 miles in the first hour of this FLAT
ride. We were flying! I was a strong rider with no baggage on a
course with no hills or significant wind plus I had the draft advantage
of the pace line. I cannot imagine how much additional power it would
have taken to add 6 miles to that first hour of riding without adding
real world conditions.

Jim

stratrider said:

On Jan 25, 2:33 am, Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I do not think 30mph average is an unreasonable figure for a fully faired
velomobile ridden by a reasonably fit pilot.

Not too many years ago I jumped into a pace line during a century ride
on my 1999 Stratus. We covered 24 miles in the first hour of this FLAT
ride. We were flying! I was a strong rider with no baggage on a
course with no hills or significant wind plus I had the draft advantage
of the pace line. I cannot imagine how much additional power it would
have taken to add 6 miles to that first hour of riding without adding
real world conditions.

Jim

I can maintain 23.4 mph average for three hours on a Catrike Expedition
unfaired while riding alone and I am 40 years old.

I'm goosed after three hours but I am working on it. On a velomobile
with much less wind resitance I expect 30mph over a similar time would
not be an issue.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

On Jan 25, 12:58 pm, Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I can maintain 23.4 mph average for three hours on a Catrike Expedition
unfaired while riding alone and I am 40 years old.

Buck, now I am really feeling bad! That is remarkable! And on a trike
no less? Do you think you could ride flat out for 30 miles (not
kilometers right?) in one hour on your tirke?

Jim

"Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2007012517590116807-SPAMTRAPian@trikesandstuffDOTcoDOTuk...

Quoted message said:

stratrider said:

On Jan 25, 2:33 am, Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I do not think 30mph average is an unreasonable figure for a fully
faired
velomobile ridden by a reasonably fit pilot.

Not too many years ago I jumped into a pace line during a century ride
on my 1999 Stratus. We covered 24 miles in the first hour of this FLAT
ride. We were flying! I was a strong rider with no baggage on a
course with no hills or significant wind plus I had the draft advantage
of the pace line. I cannot imagine how much additional power it would
have taken to add 6 miles to that first hour of riding without adding
real world conditions.

Jim

I can maintain 23.4 mph average for three hours on a Catrike Expedition
unfaired while riding alone and I am 40 years old.

I'm goosed after three hours but I am working on it. On a velomobile with
much less wind resitance I expect 30mph over a similar time would not be
an issue.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

I'm calling [censored]. I ride a Catrike Road with the small fairing. Granted
I have Big Apples, racks and mudguards but my averages are in the 22 - 25km
range over a 40 km ride. Granted also that this is somewhat hilly and I'm
46. But I ride 7000km plus per year and I am in very good shape. I can't
imagine anyone pushing over 23mph for over three hours, that's about 37kph.
Unless of course it's all downhill and/or with a good wind pushing. Hey,
there's always BionX units... that would work to get the avg up there.

Grolsch

Quoted message said:

Grolch said:

I'm calling [censored]. I ride a Catrike Road with the small fairing. Granted
I have Big Apples, racks and mudguards but my averages are in the 22 - 25km
range over a 40 km ride. Granted also that this is somewhat hilly and I'm
46. But I ride 7000km plus per year and I am in very good shape. I can't
imagine anyone pushing over 23mph for over three hours, that's about 37kph.
Unless of course it's all downhill and/or with a good wind pushing. Hey,
there's always BionX units... that would work to get the avg up there.

There was an older guy on a low-rider recumbent that rode just behind
the serious pace lines at the Seagull for the two years that I rode
sag for a bike race team and he wasn't much off their on-road pace of
25 and change (for the record, they were training more than pushing
it). Seagull though had only two places that you slow down briefly
(the first and third stops back then) and the rest is flat, so with
the wind advantage of the low rider, it was pretty much perfect for
the bike.

The fastest I've seen an unfaired recumbent on a timed course was well
below the hour mark for 40 kilos, but he wasn't staying with the
fastest of the USCF guys, the specialists - he probably set fourth or
fifth on the road behind some good TT guys. The on-the-road was an
important part because he fell both times briefly at the turn arounds
- his front wheel chattered on the rough stuff, it was pumped so high.
He looked like he could have done well under four hours over the 100
mile mark and maybe 52 minutes and change if he had stayed upright for
the 40 kilos.

Of course, none of the above were faired or trikes.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

I can
envision myself spending a few thousand dollars & discovering that
it's actually significantly harder to ride to work than my regular
bicycle, perhaps due to the weight on the hills.

This is almost certainly the case. What others are leaving out here is
that you simply can't work very hard to propel a velomobile; you'll
melt down from the lack of cooling air. The more air you divert to
cool yourself, the more aerodynamics suffer. It's a no-win situation.

Where velomobiles work is in absolutely flat places, for riders who
were only going to be putting out 100W or so anyway. Low rider power
makes the heating problem tolerable, and flat terrain makes low rider
power feasible.

I knew of one Leitra in Seattle (a hilly city). The guy who rode it
obviously liked it, but it spent /a lot/ of time in the shop getting
repaired or retrofitted. He also rode it quite a bit without its front
fairing, making it a heavy trike without any potential performance
benefits over an unfaired machine.

Quoted message said:

I've considered power-assisted vehicles, but don't think that's
the solution for me. A battery system would be too heavy when under my
own power to justify it's assistance, and would not have the juice
for my commute.

The weight of electric assist is not a big issue in very flat terrain,
and if you don't have very flat terrain then a velomobile doesn't make
sense anyway.

Quoted message said:

A gas system would be add a few issues:
a) Smell. Parked inside & when running.

Yes. That's what keeps me from even trying one.

Quoted message said:

b) Legality. Suddenly it's a "motorized vehicle" and subject to
many laws & regs.

This varies a lot by location. In some places the "motorized bicycle"
category would cover you and the only catch would be that you couldn't
use bike paths. In other places you'd have to register and insure the
thing like a moped or scooter.

Quoted message said:

c) Personal satisfaction. At that point, why not take the car or
motorcycle?

200mpg is a nice benefit. The opportunity to work some exercise into
your commute is a good thing too.

Chalo

stratrider said:

On Jan 25, 12:58 pm, Buck <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I can maintain 23.4 mph average for three hours on a Catrike Expedition
unfaired while riding alone and I am 40 years old.

Buck, now I am really feeling bad! That is remarkable! And on a trike
no less? Do you think you could ride flat out for 30 miles (not
kilometers right?) in one hour on your tirke?

Jim

Not much faster to be honest but I could break the hour I imagine, it
is down to
maintaining a steady cadence, once you get past the initial muscle burn
it is ok,
It has taken me a long time to train my cadence to this point and has
really only
kicked in this winter, although really long hills mess it up a bit,
after three hours
riding my knees are physicaly very hot for about an hour, I have discussed this
with the doctor but she says it is fine.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

Grolch said:

"Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2007012517590116807-SPAMTRAPian@trikesandstuffDOTcoDOTuk...

Quoted message said:

stratrider said:

On Jan 25, 2:33 am, Buck <[email hidden]>
wrote:
> I do not think 30mph average is an unreasonable figure for a fully faired
> velomobile ridden by a reasonably fit pilot.

Not too many years ago I jumped into a pace line during a century ride
on my 1999 Stratus. We covered 24 miles in the first hour of this FLAT
ride. We were flying! I was a strong rider with no baggage on a
course with no hills or significant wind plus I had the draft advantage
of the pace line. I cannot imagine how much additional power it would
have taken to add 6 miles to that first hour of riding without adding
real world conditions.

Jim

I can maintain 23.4 mph average for three hours on a Catrike Expedition
unfaired while riding alone and I am 40 years old.

I'm goosed after three hours but I am working on it. On a velomobile
with much less wind resitance I expect 30mph over a similar time would
not be an issue.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

I'm calling [censored]. I ride a Catrike Road with the small fairing.
Granted I have Big Apples, racks and mudguards but my averages are in
the 22 - 25km range over a 40 km ride. Granted also that this is
somewhat hilly and I'm 46. But I ride 7000km plus per year and I am in
very good shape. I can't imagine anyone pushing over 23mph for over
three hours, that's about 37kph. Unless of course it's all downhill
and/or with a good wind pushing. Hey, there's always BionX units...
that would work to get the avg up there.

Grolsch

I have a customer with a Speed that can cover his 19 mile commute in 30
minutes, I ride about 25000 to 30000 km per year, I go to the gym three
times a week and consider myself moderately fit, perceptions?

Of course if you cannot do it perhaps no one can.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

Grolch said:

I can't
imagine anyone pushing over 23mph for over three hours, that's about 37kph.
Unless of course it's all downhill and/or with a good wind pushing.

Try a bigger imagination... Andy Wilkinson, taking the UK end to end
record, averaged slightly better than 20 mph for /over 40 hours/.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/