L5 Observations - comments please

The experts will chime in after me, I'm sure, but IMO you need to inject an active recovery day after your race. Monday should have been a day for some L1/L2 active recovery riding and then use Tuesday for some intense intervals. I think, as you've mentioned, you're just fatigued from Sunday's race.

My $0.02 on your getting dropped during hard surges early in your races - it appears you probably don't warm up sufficiently in advance of the race. This would explain why once you recover you can ride strongly through the end of the race.

The gurus should pick up with the science where I've left off...

peterwright said:

Hi all

Today I started L5 training after a 5 month period of focusing on L3/4 (with racing every weekend)

Was it your first L5 workout after 5 months?

If it's the case, 5 months of L3/4 probably turned you into a diesel rider. Not a bad thing. In my opinion your response to L5 training will be quick and sharp. The power at VO2Max will increase sharply.

Doesn't Dr Coggan refer to this when describing L3 in his book - a bit of a warning about spending all your time there?

My first L5's for a couple of months went better than expected - but then I was doing them on the road as opposed to the trainer (which has become a bit of a mental block for me at the moment!)

SolarEnergy said:

Was it your first L5 workout after 5 months?

If it's the case, 5 months of L3/4 probably turned you into a diesel rider. Not a bad thing. In my opinion your response to L5 training will be quick and sharp. The power at VO2Max will increase sharply.

Careful about your "Diesel Rider" comments now :p

Start with shorter intervals in a 3/3 form. If you haven't trained it, you aren't going to have it.

The wattage target is a good idea, so maybe work on a 'critical power' model where you test how long you can ride at 115%. From your data, looks like you'll be starting at 3-4 minutes anyways. Once you can ride 5 minute intervals, re-test your FTP and adjust accordingly.

Spunout said:

Start with shorter intervals in a 3/3 form. If you haven't trained it, you aren't going to have it.

The wattage target is a good idea, so maybe work on a 'critical power' model where you test how long you can ride at 115%. From your data, looks like you'll be starting at 3-4 minutes anyways. Once you can ride 5 minute intervals, re-test your FTP and adjust accordingly.

Thanks - makes sense.

The compounding factor is that I can generally do one good L5 interval - in the weekends race I did 5 mins @ 119%, but the repeatability is poor.

One interval does not a training make.

...yoda...

Spunout said:

One interval does not a training make.

...yoda...

Yes - my point was that if I do a max duration test for 115% then it is likely that the duration willl not be relevant to the set of 5 intervals - it is the repeatability that seems to be the issue.

SolarEnergy said:

Was it your first L5 workout after 5 months?

If it's the case, 5 months of L3/4 probably turned you into a diesel rider. Not a bad thing. In my opinion your response to L5 training will be quick and sharp. The power at VO2Max will increase sharply.

yes I'd agree with this analysis and add that the lower portion of the L5 range is one you should try to avoid. Not hard enough for Vo2 and too short for threshold to be a great training range (yes I realize you'd probably race a 10-mile TT around that intensity).

I have recently started tacking on a couple of L5 intervals right after my core L4 work once or twice weekly. These are mostly to get my legs (and head 🙂 ) adjusted to the 110-115% power range where I historically would do these.

Seeing it's still early winter here I don't want to start any structured heavy L5 work.

At what point you are in fact riding under L3/L4??? I think I am on my 4th months now. My ride would always mixed in with some threshold work due to the nature of my training route. The end result is always around 80% to 85% of FT.

SolarEnergy said:

Was it your first L5 workout after 5 months?

If it's the case, 5 months of L3/4 probably turned you into a diesel rider. Not a bad thing. In my opinion your response to L5 training will be quick and sharp. The power at VO2Max will increase sharply.

rmur17 said:

I have recently started tacking on a couple of L5 intervals right after my core L4 work once or twice weekly. These are mostly to get my legs (and head 🙂 ) adjusted to the 110-115% power range where I historically would do these.

This is a good strategy in my opinion. When the body is deprived of some form of training for several weeks, it becomes very responsive to it. Just a touch of L5 at the end of an L4 work may be sufficient.

BlueJersey said:

At what point you are in fact riding under L3/L4???

I am not sure to understand this question totally.

Are you asking At what point a lot of L3/4 becomes too much L3/4??? (in which case that would be very hard to answer outside of a precise context)

rmur17 said:

yes I'd agree with this analysis and add that the lower portion of the L5 range is one you should try to avoid. Not hard enough for Vo2 and too short for threshold to be a great training range (yes I realize you'd probably race a 10-mile TT around that intensity).

Sometimes when on a heavy training week or in transition from base to build, the low zone can be used. (training with power only). Stretch them out to 8 minutes.

OR the 30s/30s ints (where is Warren anyways?😉 ) when you want to pack on 30 minutes in the zone is great at low z5.

peterwright said:

Hi all

Today I started L5 training after a 5 month period of focusing on L3/4 (with racing every weekend)

FTP is at 280w and I can routinely do 2x20 at this level. Peak 15 min power recently is at 300w.

Today's session was 4 x 5 min at a target of 315-322w (115%) with 5 min recoveries

I managed 311, 290,295 & 282

What really surprised me was how much I struggled to get anywhere near 115% FTP for even 5 mins with 5 min recovery..

The only mitigating factor was that I may have some residual fatigue from a race on Sunday (2 hours @ .93IF)

I have certainly struggled this season with early hard surges during races and have found that these have caused me to be dropped - only to recover and then ride strongly thereafter.

Has anybody experienced this level of L5 - only 105% FTP ?

Any suggestions for addressing thismore 5 min sessions at low L5 ?

Thanks

Peter

I just had exactly the same thing happen to me yesterday. Start of new training block and first crack at these workouts, still some residual fatigue, new bike and pursuit position, etc....

I put it in the blog...

alex-cycle.blogspot.comone of those days.htmlOpen ↗

Hoping to see an improvement next time.

for OP-how have you calculated your FTP? you may have slightly overestimated it if its based on a 20 minute -5% model,thus you may be setting L5 too high-I doubt this is the case but its worth examining

marmatt said:

for OP-how have you calculated your FTP? you may have slightly overestimated it if its based on a 20 minute -5% model,thus you may be setting L5 too high-I doubt this is the case but its worth examining

I did think of that but am able to routinely do 280w for 2 x 20 and can do 15 mins at 300w.

Also did 340w for 4 mins in race on Sunday.

Thanks

Peter

SolarEnergy said:

This is a good strategy in my opinion. When the body is deprived of some form of training for several weeks, it becomes very responsive to it. Just a touch of L5 at the end of an L4 work may be sufficient.

well something is working 🙂 as I increased my long ergo interval power by 10W yesterday. I was dreading it as I'd built up from 30 to 50+ min at XX watts over six weeks and just another 10W seemed mentally challenging. I'm also very close to all-time power PB's from 2-3 yrs ago (30-60 MP) and really don't know if I can get there.

Anyway, I survived the dreaded 1st workout at the new power level and got 34min with a couple of nice solid L5 to followup. The ergo can be a cruel taskmaster but rewarding as well.

peterwright said:

I did think of that but am able to routinely do 280w for 2 x 20 and can do 15 mins at 300w.

Also did 340w for 4 mins in race on Sunday.

Thanks

Peter

If you've done 340 for 4min and 300 for 15 within recent history then blew up after 5min at 311 then it looks like you just had a terrible day. How did you feel? Were you able to produce power in your race after 4 min at 340?

Greg

gvanwagner said:

If you've done 340 for 4min and 300 for 15 within recent history then blew up after 5min at 311 then it looks like you just had a terrible day. How did you feel? Were you able to produce power in your race after 4 min at 340?

Greg

In the race I was dropped after the 4 mins at 340w - so no doubt it took a toll, but the overall power for the climb was 301w for 13 mins - I then went on to ride 261w NP for 2h 10.

I felt poor during the interval session - and interestingly enough I have a sore throat today so maybe I was beginning to get sick.

On a related L5 note I'm looking to change up my L5 workouts and try something new. Any new/favorite workout ideas appreciated...Thx🙂